First Officer for Sale on Ebay (for free!!)
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Boldly said gl2651. If the flying doesn't work out, I'm sure you could get a job in marketing for your original and creative sales strategy.
The object of marketing is to get noticed, and you certainly achieved that. Good luck.
The object of marketing is to get noticed, and you certainly achieved that. Good luck.
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I can't understand why some people are wondering if they're worthy of respect from professionals such as engineers, doctors, or solicitors, because some guy with a licence is willing to work for free as a FO to gain experience.
Just because somebody has completed a 13 month course( i.e. typical full time study to obtain a fatpl.) In my opinion should not put himself in the same league as as those professions mentioned above.
Seems to me, just because some people have obtained a R/H seat positions in an airline with the minimum experience required, they automatically deserve the respect the position should merit, when in reality all they have been given is their first glimpse of on the job training, and an opportunity to learn.
Most people who achieve success in the professions mentioned above work for next to nothing in their first jobs and that's after going to university for 4 to 7 years before even receiving a qualification.
I remember reading recently, someone posted that an airline setting up a base in Gatwick offering new F/O's in the region of 50k per anum was degrading pilots T&C's, I'm sure any employee in opps, ground handling, H.R, check-in, or cabin crew would be shocked to realise what their colleagues were rewarded for their wealth of experience in aviation after their13-18 month spell in Jerez or Kidlinton .
This is just my two cents.
We're lucky as most people who fly for a living do it because they wouldn't want any other job.Unlike pretty much anybody I know in other careers who does their job to pay the bills.
If someone is able to bypass the apprenticeship of a flying career by going cpl-MEIR-MCC- 737, they should really rethink their self proclaimed professional status for at least the next 1000-2000 hours flying hours.
Just because somebody has completed a 13 month course( i.e. typical full time study to obtain a fatpl.) In my opinion should not put himself in the same league as as those professions mentioned above.
Seems to me, just because some people have obtained a R/H seat positions in an airline with the minimum experience required, they automatically deserve the respect the position should merit, when in reality all they have been given is their first glimpse of on the job training, and an opportunity to learn.
Most people who achieve success in the professions mentioned above work for next to nothing in their first jobs and that's after going to university for 4 to 7 years before even receiving a qualification.
I remember reading recently, someone posted that an airline setting up a base in Gatwick offering new F/O's in the region of 50k per anum was degrading pilots T&C's, I'm sure any employee in opps, ground handling, H.R, check-in, or cabin crew would be shocked to realise what their colleagues were rewarded for their wealth of experience in aviation after their13-18 month spell in Jerez or Kidlinton .
This is just my two cents.
We're lucky as most people who fly for a living do it because they wouldn't want any other job.Unlike pretty much anybody I know in other careers who does their job to pay the bills.
If someone is able to bypass the apprenticeship of a flying career by going cpl-MEIR-MCC- 737, they should really rethink their self proclaimed professional status for at least the next 1000-2000 hours flying hours.
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Well said Cheif,
I spent 6 years training to be an Engineer, after attaining the relevant qualifications my wage reflected that of an inexperienced Engineer, and rightfully so. As experience came, wages increased. Unfortunately, with the state of manufacturing in the UK I was made redundant several times!
So......In comes the flying, always wanted to fly as a career (had a PPL for general flying), but I wasn't in the enviable position like many of having bottomless pits of money from ma and pa. I take my hat off to anyone embarking on a fATPL course, or modular, because it is without doubt incredabily difficult, but like Cheif says, not in the same league as say medicine. So, after the sale of my house, car and just about everything else I owned embarked on a 16month integrated course. All went well, no job at the end though, those pesky FTO's, promise you the earth eh!!!!
Did some Safety Pilot work and other bits and bobs, but always on the look out for that first commercial job. Now, the interesting part, lots of my friends whilst training were somewhat disillusioned when it came to finding that first elusive job, with many believing they would jump straight into the RHS of a 73/320. Some did, but not many.
I was one of the lucky one's, got a job relatively quickly and ended up flying large Turbo Props for 3 years, which believe me if you are fresh out of training is more challenging than a 2.5hr trip down to the balearics in a 73/A3?....
Eventually family commitments dictated a change to another company flying jets and have been for 3 years now - great, but I'm happy I cut my teeth on a Turbo Prop flying 4-6 sectors a day gaining invaluable experience.
My problem with guys trying to get that first job is the sheer arrogance of some who believe it is their god given right to go straight onto a Jet. Not been funny guys, but what is wrong with a Turbo Prop. What is wrong with Air Taxi work, what is wrong with Instructing???????? If you fly in the US, that is the norm (qualify, Instruct etc...), not the exception like Europe.
Yes before the barrage of replies comes in from the wannabeeees about 'tried that' etc, you need to now wake up and smell the coffee. There has not been a downturn like this in a long time, and the pilots who have jobs will protect them vehemently. Such posts as posted by gl2651 only go to show the extents and plight of the inexperienced pilot and the lengths they are willing to go to get that 1st JET JOB
.....
So I await the posts from people who declare they have a sense of humour, and those who don't. I laughed at the ad, but, with a job that supports my young family to worry about in these turbulant times after reading posts here has made me a little bit pissed with gl2651 for being so arrogant. Such adverts send a clear message to Airlines who are mostly now run by bean counters and HR departments that Pilot's, epecially the Inexperienced are willing to work for peanuts. Ultimately, you are degrading yourself and the Terms and Conditions of others!
I spent 6 years training to be an Engineer, after attaining the relevant qualifications my wage reflected that of an inexperienced Engineer, and rightfully so. As experience came, wages increased. Unfortunately, with the state of manufacturing in the UK I was made redundant several times!
So......In comes the flying, always wanted to fly as a career (had a PPL for general flying), but I wasn't in the enviable position like many of having bottomless pits of money from ma and pa. I take my hat off to anyone embarking on a fATPL course, or modular, because it is without doubt incredabily difficult, but like Cheif says, not in the same league as say medicine. So, after the sale of my house, car and just about everything else I owned embarked on a 16month integrated course. All went well, no job at the end though, those pesky FTO's, promise you the earth eh!!!!
Did some Safety Pilot work and other bits and bobs, but always on the look out for that first commercial job. Now, the interesting part, lots of my friends whilst training were somewhat disillusioned when it came to finding that first elusive job, with many believing they would jump straight into the RHS of a 73/320. Some did, but not many.
I was one of the lucky one's, got a job relatively quickly and ended up flying large Turbo Props for 3 years, which believe me if you are fresh out of training is more challenging than a 2.5hr trip down to the balearics in a 73/A3?....
Eventually family commitments dictated a change to another company flying jets and have been for 3 years now - great, but I'm happy I cut my teeth on a Turbo Prop flying 4-6 sectors a day gaining invaluable experience.
My problem with guys trying to get that first job is the sheer arrogance of some who believe it is their god given right to go straight onto a Jet. Not been funny guys, but what is wrong with a Turbo Prop. What is wrong with Air Taxi work, what is wrong with Instructing???????? If you fly in the US, that is the norm (qualify, Instruct etc...), not the exception like Europe.
Yes before the barrage of replies comes in from the wannabeeees about 'tried that' etc, you need to now wake up and smell the coffee. There has not been a downturn like this in a long time, and the pilots who have jobs will protect them vehemently. Such posts as posted by gl2651 only go to show the extents and plight of the inexperienced pilot and the lengths they are willing to go to get that 1st JET JOB
.....So I await the posts from people who declare they have a sense of humour, and those who don't. I laughed at the ad, but, with a job that supports my young family to worry about in these turbulant times after reading posts here has made me a little bit pissed with gl2651 for being so arrogant. Such adverts send a clear message to Airlines who are mostly now run by bean counters and HR departments that Pilot's, epecially the Inexperienced are willing to work for peanuts. Ultimately, you are degrading yourself and the Terms and Conditions of others!
Last edited by mad manc man; 22nd Jan 2009 at 10:37.
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You won't get any argument from me about the "traditional " route to jets producing a better pilot at the end of it. I also started of instructing, then onto turboprops etc.
I learnt more flying the mighty shed about than I did from anything else.
However, modern jets aren't that difficult to fly on a day to day basis and with the lack of any accidents and so few serious incidents for a long time, the argument could be made that you don't need as much skill in the cockpit as we all think.
Of course that is utter nonsense and anyone with half a brain can see that, but everything in flying comes down to money now.
If someone can be gotten legally into the cockpit for less money than a more experienced person, then it will happen.
We can all whinge and blame the inexperienced people, but that is also nonsense. You cannot blame someone for going out and getting a head start. It is a simple case of running the numbers. If you pay 20K and get a job paying 35K, then after 2 years you have earnt 70, giving you a total profit of 50.
If you decide to follow the traditional FI/turboprop route, you are lucky to earn 15k in the first year and 20K in the second. Even if you didn't pay for your FI/turbo rating, then you are still 15K down and you haven't got 1000hrs jet time in your logbook.
Does it make you a better pilot? No, but this isn't about that. Sadly, it all comes down to money.
35K pa to someone with a family and a mortgage isn't a lot. 35K to a 22 year old with no dependants is a lot.
I learnt more flying the mighty shed about than I did from anything else.
However, modern jets aren't that difficult to fly on a day to day basis and with the lack of any accidents and so few serious incidents for a long time, the argument could be made that you don't need as much skill in the cockpit as we all think.
Of course that is utter nonsense and anyone with half a brain can see that, but everything in flying comes down to money now.
If someone can be gotten legally into the cockpit for less money than a more experienced person, then it will happen.
We can all whinge and blame the inexperienced people, but that is also nonsense. You cannot blame someone for going out and getting a head start. It is a simple case of running the numbers. If you pay 20K and get a job paying 35K, then after 2 years you have earnt 70, giving you a total profit of 50.
If you decide to follow the traditional FI/turboprop route, you are lucky to earn 15k in the first year and 20K in the second. Even if you didn't pay for your FI/turbo rating, then you are still 15K down and you haven't got 1000hrs jet time in your logbook.
Does it make you a better pilot? No, but this isn't about that. Sadly, it all comes down to money.
35K pa to someone with a family and a mortgage isn't a lot. 35K to a 22 year old with no dependants is a lot.
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Not been funny guys, but what is wrong with a Turbo Prop. What is wrong with Air Taxi work, what is wrong with Instructing????????
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So when the upturn comes, who do you think the bean counters will recruit, the recently redundant multi thousand hour pilots expecting a 40k plus salary or the 200 hour wonders who will work for free or even pay to work?
You gonna need that sense of humour when you get your payslip.
You gonna need that sense of humour when you get your payslip.
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Who do you think they'll employ? But again how is that the fault of the young bloke who put his ad up on EBay?
He couldn't give two hoots about others and frankly why should he? It is a competition and the right people don't always win. It's one of the harsh realities of the capitalist system. Supply and Demand.
I'm not saying it is right, but that isn't the point is it.
He couldn't give two hoots about others and frankly why should he? It is a competition and the right people don't always win. It's one of the harsh realities of the capitalist system. Supply and Demand.
I'm not saying it is right, but that isn't the point is it.
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mona lot, I'm guessing you are safely in a job. Makes it a lot easier to take the high and mighty attitude you seem to have. I really hope you don't have to experience the sudden redundancies which have been dished out in this bleak period, but if you did maybe you would be a little more sympathetic to the desperation some people are feeling right now. Kicking people while they are down isn't the most helpful. (Not to mention, unprofessional.)
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I admire the fact he is 'thinking outside the square' and isn't afraid of using his resources to try and land himself a job. Ok, he may not get one. But he tried. 
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SAS, you are right, he probably couldn't give two hoots. Mind you, there are quite a few posts reviling him and the authors of them couldn't give two hoots about desperate low timers, so I guess that's fair. They just want them to stay down, keep quiet, and not do anything which might affect adversly affect the status quo of competition within their own career ranks. This is thinly veiled as the high moral ground, worthy of any spin doctor.
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Unfortunately, because pilots are a mercenary bunch in general, we are all guilty of allowing the situation where reducing T's and C's becomes the norm.
It doesn't help that there has been an over supply of pilots. There are so few barriers to entry now, that it is just a bun fight for the available jobs.
As we aren't a very united bunch, then it allows this sort of issue to arise.
It doesn't help that there has been an over supply of pilots. There are so few barriers to entry now, that it is just a bun fight for the available jobs.
As we aren't a very united bunch, then it allows this sort of issue to arise.
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I do have to say as a current manager, Pilots are a remarkably easy lot to "divide and conquer". All you need do is promise someone more for them right now and they're sold on the idea....this is how the Ts & Cs have disappeared, not by the kids buying the line training schemes...
Unfortunately, until pilots (taking myself out of the equation, because I'm not in it yet, mores the pity) stand together and say enough, it will keep happening, because it can and because it's easy to do.
Unfortunately, until pilots (taking myself out of the equation, because I'm not in it yet, mores the pity) stand together and say enough, it will keep happening, because it can and because it's easy to do.
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In Germany there is an airline (around 40 B737īs and F100īs) that is wetleasing to all major charter airlines. It offered the copilot-seat to dentists, laywers etc. They had to pay (!!) around 35 Euros per hour. Of course they had a valid ATPL (dentists earn good money in germany :-))
This way this airline could operate much cheaper than anybody else and made big cash :-))
This way this airline could operate much cheaper than anybody else and made big cash :-))
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in Germany
Baron737:
Is this true?
In Germany there is an airline (around 40 B737īs and F100īs) that is wetleasing to all major charter airlines. It offered the copilot-seat to dentists, laywers etc. They had to pay (!!) around 35 Euros per hour. Of course they had a valid ATPL (dentists earn good money in germany :-))
This way this airline could operate much cheaper than anybody else and made big cash :-))
This way this airline could operate much cheaper than anybody else and made big cash :-))
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agree
mad manc man
Have nothing to say against your comment. Some youngsters even think that they would jump to LHS, if I am not wrong. USA is the largest country in air transportation. Before having a LHS on a twin prop, they do lots of hours on single pistons of GA fleet... perhaps, youngestrs of Europe should do some Googling about bush pilots in North America. Have met an American 747 driver...he said he had done everything in flying for several years before taking LHS of a DC-3.
Have nothing to say against your comment. Some youngsters even think that they would jump to LHS, if I am not wrong. USA is the largest country in air transportation. Before having a LHS on a twin prop, they do lots of hours on single pistons of GA fleet... perhaps, youngestrs of Europe should do some Googling about bush pilots in North America. Have met an American 747 driver...he said he had done everything in flying for several years before taking LHS of a DC-3.
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Aeroengineer1--agreed, 100%, b/c, been there, done that.
mad manc man--so true, so true.
But, here's the real problem, the way I see it:
What will happen when these 200 hour wonders, who are so f
g high on themselves it makes you want to 
, move over to the left seat?
I for one will be scared $hitless to fly commercial in a few years! There will be a serious lack of experience on flight decks. It'll happen here a lot sooner than in the US.
I'm talking about aviating/seat of the pants experience; where situations arise that are not black and white, rather grey, and some "improvisation" will be the order of the day, where decisions are made based on experience, not $hit that's written in manuals, etc.
How do you make those decisions with a very limited "depth" of experience
(ie, amphib A320)
I'm not at all implying that these wonder cakes will not have ANY experience at all. Unless they are completely oblivious to their surroundings, they're bound to pick up some things here and there. But what kind of experience can you get, when you're always above the wx, never in the icing, etc, etc,...
Do I have a solution? No. So I will stfu now.
Btw, better add, that I'm 100% European, before you start bashing those poor yank bastards!!! (And for all that's wrong with the US, I am glad, and proud, to have been flying-bred over there)
mad manc man--so true, so true.
But, here's the real problem, the way I see it:
What will happen when these 200 hour wonders, who are so f
g high on themselves it makes you want to , move over to the left seat? I for one will be scared $hitless to fly commercial in a few years! There will be a serious lack of experience on flight decks. It'll happen here a lot sooner than in the US.
I'm talking about aviating/seat of the pants experience; where situations arise that are not black and white, rather grey, and some "improvisation" will be the order of the day, where decisions are made based on experience, not $hit that's written in manuals, etc.
How do you make those decisions with a very limited "depth" of experience
(ie, amphib A320)
I'm not at all implying that these wonder cakes will not have ANY experience at all. Unless they are completely oblivious to their surroundings, they're bound to pick up some things here and there. But what kind of experience can you get, when you're always above the wx, never in the icing, etc, etc,...
Do I have a solution? No. So I will stfu now.
Btw, better add, that I'm 100% European, before you start bashing those poor yank bastards!!! (And for all that's wrong with the US, I am glad, and proud, to have been flying-bred over there)
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OK guys, just to keep things in perspective. 200 hour guys ARE NOT going to suddenly end up in the LHS. I have 6500 hours and a command course fast approaching coupled with 9 years of RHS experience. The reality is that no airline in the UK is putting low hour guys in the LHS. Most respectable operators have minimums of at least 4500 hours.
I will of course agree that some of the 200 hour guys have over inflated egos but there are so many RHS guys ahead of them in the queue waiting for commands that they will have acquired the necessary by the time their turn comes.
I sometimes worry more about the quality of some contract captains. There might be a reason why they are not fully employed??? And I am not tarring all with the same brush, but as with anything, there are always a few bad eggs.
It is easy to get emotional when people have so much cash invested in their career.
I will of course agree that some of the 200 hour guys have over inflated egos but there are so many RHS guys ahead of them in the queue waiting for commands that they will have acquired the necessary by the time their turn comes.
I sometimes worry more about the quality of some contract captains. There might be a reason why they are not fully employed??? And I am not tarring all with the same brush, but as with anything, there are always a few bad eggs.
It is easy to get emotional when people have so much cash invested in their career.
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