Market flooded with experienced pilots makes the pimps happy
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There is a real relation between this topic and retirement age!
The usefulness 'curve' definitely flattens and then declines. Each year's pay increase does not bring with it any measurable increase in productivity. Subjectively, as an FO, I feel more comfortable with most 40 year-old captains than with those in their 50's or 60's - especially when it gets tricky.
Approximately a third of an airline's cost is payroll, so keeping that aligned to the market is critical for the long-term survival of airlines. Economics have no concept of ego or prestige. The golden age of air travel has passed.
I'd be interested to see what the rest of you think - perhaps I'm missing something. Perhaps Capt Sullenberger's performance may change public opinion - although, by the sound of things (media says he made the radio calls), so he may have been the Pilot Monitoring
. Respect though - to all involved.
Last edited by MainDude; 17th Jan 2009 at 09:24. Reason: Spelling...
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No matter the captain was handling or non handling pilot, you can be sure that he, as captain, either originated or approved the decision to alight along the river.
If subsequent energy analysis will show that the aircraft could in fact have glided into Teterboro, then the course towards driverless flight will continue unimpeded, or even be enhanced.
On the other hand if it is proved that alighting on the river was the only reasonably safe option then the march of computerisation will continue but maybe be delayed by a few years.Computers have to be taught about options for alighting on rivers. (Aside) maybe many humans too would not have considered and actioned this option.
When we as SLF buy a ticket we have idea what our aircraft will be.But last minute changes can mean it is not Boeing but Airbus. Old timers like to say "If it ain't Boeing I ain't going" but no refund and they don't go?
You buy a ticket, nothing to say how many human crew, monkey crew and dog crew."Gubmint allowed the flight so never mind" we are going to say. "Can't get refund for this anyway." "Maybe it will be OK"
In the long run the best that "operating" pilots can hope for is a laptop in the cheapest economy seat. Better than my nightmares where I have only a piece of string to pull and the view out of an economy window.
If subsequent energy analysis will show that the aircraft could in fact have glided into Teterboro, then the course towards driverless flight will continue unimpeded, or even be enhanced.
On the other hand if it is proved that alighting on the river was the only reasonably safe option then the march of computerisation will continue but maybe be delayed by a few years.Computers have to be taught about options for alighting on rivers. (Aside) maybe many humans too would not have considered and actioned this option.
When we as SLF buy a ticket we have idea what our aircraft will be.But last minute changes can mean it is not Boeing but Airbus. Old timers like to say "If it ain't Boeing I ain't going" but no refund and they don't go?
You buy a ticket, nothing to say how many human crew, monkey crew and dog crew."Gubmint allowed the flight so never mind" we are going to say. "Can't get refund for this anyway." "Maybe it will be OK"
In the long run the best that "operating" pilots can hope for is a laptop in the cheapest economy seat. Better than my nightmares where I have only a piece of string to pull and the view out of an economy window.
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too many guys paying too much for line training
I flew props for many years in malaysia,png,australia and kazaksthan,companies offered me jet job in turkey and india but i had to pay for the first 500 hrs( so i refused to pay) ,finally i found a job on jet but within 12 mths the company sacks all foreign pilots and now back to searching for work ,u either have the right passport or u work for nothing or u forced back to props ,its a bad situation in airlines unless u fortuneate to get job in your home country with regular airline.
With the amount of new guys paying for line training its a difficult sitiuation,lets hope jobs become more plentiful as the salaries and conditions are eroding badly every day.
W
hen you are replaced by a 22 year old with 250 hrs experience you wonder what am i doing here the passengers will freak out to see this low level times of newbies.
good luck guys keep studying your QRH ok
With the amount of new guys paying for line training its a difficult sitiuation,lets hope jobs become more plentiful as the salaries and conditions are eroding badly every day.
W
hen you are replaced by a 22 year old with 250 hrs experience you wonder what am i doing here the passengers will freak out to see this low level times of newbies.good luck guys keep studying your QRH ok
Blimey.
Have all you people only just discovered that 99% of human beings, be it airline management, your collegues, or indeed your ex wife, are just out for themselves??
Remember, if you feel the world is out to do you down, Its not... 99.9% of people don't give a sh*t what happens to you one way or the other! They do, however, care about what happens to themselves and their family. There is a difference.
Have all you people only just discovered that 99% of human beings, be it airline management, your collegues, or indeed your ex wife, are just out for themselves??
Remember, if you feel the world is out to do you down, Its not... 99.9% of people don't give a sh*t what happens to you one way or the other! They do, however, care about what happens to themselves and their family. There is a difference.
Last edited by Private jet; 17th Jan 2009 at 14:14. Reason: gramma......
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If you look at the company 'Stagecoach' and read what Mr Souter did to salaries and benefits of his staff, then the same is being applied to airlines. As staff costs are such a big proportion of overall costs, it is an easy target. Cadets are routinely now sent to the front of the queue, bypassing those with more experience (Mr Souter fired the experienced drivers and replaced them with cheaper,new ones). Eventually it will bottom out, but the type of individual attracted to the profession changes from, say a university graduate to someone with A-levels only to someone with GCSEs and so on.
I always find it amusing to see people say that they will work for free and then join a proper airline which will pay them. Or perhaps just depressing to see that such individuals were given licences.
I always find it amusing to see people say that they will work for free and then join a proper airline which will pay them. Or perhaps just depressing to see that such individuals were given licences.
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Thans for your post Private Jet. I never thought about it like that before.
I have always taken it personally, but now perhaps I can make a different perspective.
Question is should I continue sticking pins in the sensitive parts of the photos of my perceived enemies?
I have always taken it personally, but now perhaps I can make a different perspective.
Question is should I continue sticking pins in the sensitive parts of the photos of my perceived enemies?
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Perhaps Capt Sullenberger's performance may change public opinion - although, by the sound of things (media says he made the radio calls), so he may have been the Pilot Monitoring
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Remember those DHL guys in Bagdad who landed their A300 without flight controls ?? I just saw a piece on Tv where NASA landed an MD 11 using a kind of auto pilot controlling the engine induced effect just like the crew did................only of course a lot lot better. It's the same control panel on the F/D and seeing the plane land, you would never guess it's lost all flight controls.
The FAA apparently didn't judge it necessary to have it installed on aircrafts due to high costs. That's now.
Tommorrow ??? Well folks, just like any profession, our is going down the drain, thanks to technology...................and frankly for the better.
Air travel has after all become a lot safer.
Think of medecine. Would any of you like to land on an operating table let's say...........1930's style ??? or even 1960 ?? Surely no !!
This job will become more and more of the pit as far as working conditions and pay...........and think of health with horrific stories about chromosome alterations.
I would never recommend this job today and I had a lot of fun doing it for many years. It's just become too unbalanced these days and pilots shortage or not............it'll never go back to the bonanza it once was.
Time to move on to something else, what I don't know, if you're looking for a rewarding job..............if there 's any.
The FAA apparently didn't judge it necessary to have it installed on aircrafts due to high costs. That's now.
Tommorrow ??? Well folks, just like any profession, our is going down the drain, thanks to technology...................and frankly for the better.
Air travel has after all become a lot safer.
Think of medecine. Would any of you like to land on an operating table let's say...........1930's style ??? or even 1960 ?? Surely no !!
This job will become more and more of the pit as far as working conditions and pay...........and think of health with horrific stories about chromosome alterations.
I would never recommend this job today and I had a lot of fun doing it for many years. It's just become too unbalanced these days and pilots shortage or not............it'll never go back to the bonanza it once was.
Time to move on to something else, what I don't know, if you're looking for a rewarding job..............if there 's any.
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George Carlin (Warning: strong language!) sums it up nicely, as usual:
They don't want that. You know what they want? They want obedient workers, obedient workers. People who are just smart enoug to run the machines and do all the paperwork, and just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly sh!ttier jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours the reduced benefits, the end of overtime, and the vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go and collect it...
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experience does not help
being 20 years behind the wheel and another 20-25 years to go, but recently layed off, unable to find a hard commitment from any employer after two months of trying I am wondering what life would be outside of aviation.
when things come up it will be on the other side of the planet or places I do not want my family to live. Then again I do not want to drag my family all around the world when they are happy here, or go myself and only see them via skype.... It just is not worth it any more in my opinion.
The whole reason why I went into this job was the love of flying.
nowadays it all comes down to money, pleasure is gone since the doors shut after 9-11.
allthough being in my 40-ties is not that old, many companies prefer a young guy early 20 ties and 1500-2000 hrs behind the wheel for a left seat position.first of all he payed his typerating and secondly he is easy to work with, does not ask difficult questions being eager and inexperienced.
we older folks are seen as expensive and difficult. Experience is not an issue. Until recently when this chap put his airbus nicely on the river...and the world is full of credit for him being so experienced. so perhaps there is hope... but as the time and money is running out I might well have flown my last flight a few months ago as I am looking outside the av-world allready to make a living..and perhaps see the wife and the kids a bit more
when things come up it will be on the other side of the planet or places I do not want my family to live. Then again I do not want to drag my family all around the world when they are happy here, or go myself and only see them via skype.... It just is not worth it any more in my opinion.
The whole reason why I went into this job was the love of flying.
nowadays it all comes down to money, pleasure is gone since the doors shut after 9-11.
allthough being in my 40-ties is not that old, many companies prefer a young guy early 20 ties and 1500-2000 hrs behind the wheel for a left seat position.first of all he payed his typerating and secondly he is easy to work with, does not ask difficult questions being eager and inexperienced.
we older folks are seen as expensive and difficult. Experience is not an issue. Until recently when this chap put his airbus nicely on the river...and the world is full of credit for him being so experienced. so perhaps there is hope... but as the time and money is running out I might well have flown my last flight a few months ago as I am looking outside the av-world allready to make a living..and perhaps see the wife and the kids a bit more
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Airliner Pilots, which tools do we have to stop those JOKES????
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I have been advising youngsters on this career for a long time. I used to report it is a hard load to reach a pilot seat on a commercial airplane but it is worth the sacrifice.
Today, everytime I'm asked for some input about the career I basically reply "forget about it unlesse you join a cadets programme with a major airline or easyjet (not even Ryanair)". Period. I probably sound narrow-minded or too rigid but I just don't want to be at the source of deep failures for real people. To date I have avoided 3 boys from rushing into the career. They're now happy students in business and IT. They're not paying extraordinary amounts and will get hunted down soon for good money, not for peanuts and make-believes. No Type Ratings at your own expense, no hours building on 737s, no major loans worth 3 years of salary... This is the end of this job as we know it. Tough **** for airlines when the economy kicks in again but what's the point, really ????
Guys like MOL hate our guts and take away all sort of recognition (see his remarks on what sort of drama queens we all are). We pay massive amounts towards TRs that put our lives and those of our families' at a level of financial risk CEOs would not consider a second for their own company. But we, pilots, should accept to take on that risk...The job itself has worsened beside T&Cs : security checks, intensifying rosters hence challenging health, etc...Considering all that, how can one advise this career to anyone ?
To those rookies reading these lines, if you're hesitating between pilot and something else, try cadet programmes with the big ones. If you fail, just forget it.
Today, everytime I'm asked for some input about the career I basically reply "forget about it unlesse you join a cadets programme with a major airline or easyjet (not even Ryanair)". Period. I probably sound narrow-minded or too rigid but I just don't want to be at the source of deep failures for real people. To date I have avoided 3 boys from rushing into the career. They're now happy students in business and IT. They're not paying extraordinary amounts and will get hunted down soon for good money, not for peanuts and make-believes. No Type Ratings at your own expense, no hours building on 737s, no major loans worth 3 years of salary... This is the end of this job as we know it. Tough **** for airlines when the economy kicks in again but what's the point, really ????
Guys like MOL hate our guts and take away all sort of recognition (see his remarks on what sort of drama queens we all are). We pay massive amounts towards TRs that put our lives and those of our families' at a level of financial risk CEOs would not consider a second for their own company. But we, pilots, should accept to take on that risk...The job itself has worsened beside T&Cs : security checks, intensifying rosters hence challenging health, etc...Considering all that, how can one advise this career to anyone ?
To those rookies reading these lines, if you're hesitating between pilot and something else, try cadet programmes with the big ones. If you fail, just forget it.
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1-if you think banks will continue to give 200'000$ to a wanabees for cpl,mcc, type rating, and block of hours, that' s a big mistake the bank can not afford anymore.
the time of borrowing money with nothing in return is over.
2-ICAO 4 rule is here, you don't speak english, forget this job, do something else, or go first spend 1 year in US or UK to learn english.
what will happen in 2009
: many school will be bust , Oxford included.
TRTO will have problem to run their business as selfsponsore pilots will be rare.
3-india pulled already the plug for the "pay for line training", and other countries will follow.
there won't be any pay to work scheme.
1+2+3= No pilot available very soon...
pilot, airline, bank=not willing to spend money to train pilots, they won't find enough pilot loaded with cash and who has level 4 icao.
f...the airlines!
once obama will be in power, I think the situation will go slightly back to a normal and better situation for everyone.Giving free money for a house or for flight training and then file bankrupt once problems arise is not the solution...
the time of borrowing money with nothing in return is over.
2-ICAO 4 rule is here, you don't speak english, forget this job, do something else, or go first spend 1 year in US or UK to learn english.
what will happen in 2009
: many school will be bust , Oxford included.
TRTO will have problem to run their business as selfsponsore pilots will be rare.
3-india pulled already the plug for the "pay for line training", and other countries will follow.
there won't be any pay to work scheme.
1+2+3= No pilot available very soon...
pilot, airline, bank=not willing to spend money to train pilots, they won't find enough pilot loaded with cash and who has level 4 icao.
f...the airlines!
once obama will be in power, I think the situation will go slightly back to a normal and better situation for everyone.Giving free money for a house or for flight training and then file bankrupt once problems arise is not the solution...
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There's never been a pilot shortage and there never will be. There might at times have been a shortage of people with experience, but that's not even a factor anymore.
When the marked improves again, T&Cs will not.
When the marked improves again, T&Cs will not.
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I agree with many of the sentiments about the job being dumbed down. Some even say the necessary education is less than it was as technology takes over. It is true that the airlines want yes-men to push their little buttons. What staggers me in this new enviroment is that the main airlines (not just majors) still trot out the same old applicant's characteristics as yester-year. You will haved good higher level education; be dynamic; team player; show leardership and able to motivate and inspire; be good at multi-tasking and respond in stressful situations etc. etc. Then they treat you like little school boys and wonder why you turn into grumpy old men. It would be a big wonder if you didn't. When will HR departments start to balance their recruitment criteria with what they really want? In fact if anyone who truely had all those wonderful qualities, and still wanted to be an airline pilot, I'd be suspicious. Why not use all that talent, develop a career to use them and reward them, then go fly for fun when and where YOU want to, not as some pimply pilot hating rosterer wants.
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I agree with many of the sentiments about the job being dumbed down. Some even say the necessary education is less than it was as technology takes over. It is true that the airlines want yes-men to push their little buttons. What staggers me in this new enviroment is that the main airlines (not just majors) still trot out the same old applicant's characteristics as yester-year. You will haved good higher level education; be dynamic; team player; show leardership and able to motivate and inspire; be good at multi-tasking and respond in stressful situations etc. etc. Then they treat you like little school boys and wonder why you turn into grumpy old men. It would be a big wonder if you didn't. When will HR departments start to balance their recruitment criteria with what they really want? In fact if anyone who truely had all those wonderful qualities, and still wanted to be an airline pilot, I'd be suspicious. Why not use all that talent, develop a career to use them and reward them, then go fly for fun when and where YOU want to, not as some pimply pilot hating rosterer wants.
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rather selfish attitude
I agree with AF Jockey who says that he discourages youngsters to become an airline pilot, I exactly do the same.
Unfortunately all this has been caused by a rather selfish group of people with loads of money and willing to spend that money on a typerating, something which should be done by the employer , not the employee.
The result is that companies were all to be willing to accept this. People offering them money(paying for a typerating) to work for them. Think about it, in what other job do people do this?
And yes guys and girls, I say selfish, because you have not only scr#wed it for yourself(pardon my french) but for everybody else, now and in the future. If we had organised ourselves into a worlwide union or so, and consistenly refused this, it would not have happened.
I have refused on several occasions a job offer for this reason, as I think it is against all moral.I would have been way up in my career, but so be it, no regrets. I know 40 year old pilots still paying off their debts, isn't that nuts?
Make a few calculations, you will see that this "investment" is not paying off.
Someone mentioned "love of flying". but you can also do that in a C172 and have another job on the side. Like many I am also considering that same move
I am still rumbling around in turboprops but at least I am making a profit, not sending 50 proc of my money back to the bank.
Unfortunately all this has been caused by a rather selfish group of people with loads of money and willing to spend that money on a typerating, something which should be done by the employer , not the employee.
The result is that companies were all to be willing to accept this. People offering them money(paying for a typerating) to work for them. Think about it, in what other job do people do this?
And yes guys and girls, I say selfish, because you have not only scr#wed it for yourself(pardon my french) but for everybody else, now and in the future. If we had organised ourselves into a worlwide union or so, and consistenly refused this, it would not have happened.
I have refused on several occasions a job offer for this reason, as I think it is against all moral.I would have been way up in my career, but so be it, no regrets. I know 40 year old pilots still paying off their debts, isn't that nuts?
Make a few calculations, you will see that this "investment" is not paying off.
Someone mentioned "love of flying". but you can also do that in a C172 and have another job on the side. Like many I am also considering that same move
I am still rumbling around in turboprops but at least I am making a profit, not sending 50 proc of my money back to the bank.
Do you know how much it costs to fly for fun in Europe!?
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The retirement thing is not happening - age discrimination will take care of that. None of us ole geezers are going anywhere till we are all 65 - we can't afford to due to management having destroyed our pensions etc etc.
Tough for the young guys waiting for us to vacate the seat. And no I get no pleasure in having to work till I die.
Tough for the young guys waiting for us to vacate the seat. And no I get no pleasure in having to work till I die.
