Market flooded with experienced pilots makes the pimps happy
 

Just to widen the discussion a little: many airlines have gone bust recently. Type rated pilots on the market. Yet strangely I hear that some airlines are recruiting cadets rather than experience. This can only be for financial reasons. Cadets pay for themselves and work for lower wages. Moral? No. Satisfying for shareholders? Probably. So what is the truth from those job hunting.

Its true, here in the UK we have people paying airlines/FTOs to sit in the RHS on public transport flights.

It is all over the world, not only in uk. Full of s____T pilots who pay to work. I wonder why their captains do not flank them. We pilots as a job are finished by these full of s____T

Everybody has a choice and if people wanna pay to fly or just fly for free then of course airlines are gonna welcome them with open arms, it makes perfect financial sense for the airlines. If these guys can afford to work with no wages then good for them, let them get on with it. Would I do it? No f*&#%ing way, but thats just me. I don't however think there should be some campaign against people who choose to do it, they are free to do as they please.

Settle down fellas
We will go thru a tough period but when the upswing comes - the last pilot shortage will look like a joke compared to whats coming, and the reasons are:

1) Large scale expected retirements in major airlines of senior flt crew over the next 5 yrs.
2) Banks in Europe and USA are not giving loans for flt training, therefore fewer new students.
3) A perception has developed that this is a hi-risk industry in terms of job security - fewer are attracted to the profession.
4) Low and slow return for a very high cost of investment.
5) Airlines cutting T&C of flight crew make for a less appealing alternative to engineering, law, medicine, etc

Flight schools in the US are struggling already, and there are those that have ceased struggling. For good.

All this means that greener pastures are ahead - we've just got to pull through this mess.

IFALPA is strong enough to make the rules isn't it?
Why not asking as a Worldwide regulation for the airlines to make a full type rating for new joiners eventhough they are allready type rated at airline own expenses with no opportunity to pay them on a lower scale.
That would mean a type rating is only valid for the Airline you are working for.
This would be good also for Airlines as pilots would not leave so easily and only for better salary and T&Cs.
Only the best airlines would attract the best people and this would be also as good for new joiners (no type to pay for) than for experienced pilots (priority because of shorter training).
Just a dream...:rolleyes:

The reason for airlines taking on cadets as opposed to exp type rated guys is simple - the experienced guys will piss off at the drop of a hat once the economy improves, the cadets probably won't.

The extra income doesn't hurt either.

Ad :ok:

People starting out in this career think, "It's ok, I'll take the paycut, I'll pay my way at first then when I have the hours I'll get in with a proper company and be set for life".

I have news for you lads, the "proper companies" will most likely be gone by that time, replaced by moneygrubbing and morally void machines that give you zero respect. Why not, you spent your career up until that point being a prostitute.

Time flies when you're having fun, before you know it you'll be 40+ getting fired and looking for a job in India to feed your family watching your kids grow up via postcards, while the tax man sifts through your creative accounting for the past 10 years.

Think it can't happen ;)

I dunno, I suggest it might be the cadet that buggers off post haste. As has been mentioned already, it's a free world and those paying for TRs and flying, whilst either dumb, loaded or both, shouldn't be treated differently. It's our unions that should be doing something about this and Balpa is, disappointingly, remaining very quiet on this issue. We need to lobby our reps and managers. This WILL drag our conditions down. The TCX accident report with the self funded FO at the controls makes for an illuminating half hour.

Wild Goose is spot on.
Only fly in the ointment I can see will be the price of oil when demand picks up.
But I'm sure that won't stem the growth by a huge amount.

My 757/737 outfit has hired recently and the amount of CV's received is mental.
All experience guys with stacks of hours too.

But like Goose said ... when the market picks up again it'll be a bun fight :}

Hi Gnirren,

I think it's happening NOW. (at least in Europe for what I'm concerned) Without giving any name, look what happened in the UK, France, Italy, Spain... All the majors got they "low cost" ("below average T&C") branch which is probably going to be the of the airline's trunk within a few years.
Who knows a financial manager who really cares for their crew? := (crew who, by the way, "move" a hundred millions aircraft from A to B!) BUT I am sure that they love to show up like being the Heroes of the industry every time they launch a saving plan. Normal as it's worth for they pay slip's promotion. Apart from a chief pilot, DO, Training, we rarely (except when the ship sinks) receive encouragement's letter from a "top" executive even tough we fly at the optimum level for 10 hours, fly a perfect constant descend, do our best for the on time departure figures... A few people actually rule the game and even if thousands decide to strike, it doesn't make any difference...(UK) So what are the options???

Wild goose, yes indeed good and valid points. BUT you also have to fit into the equation that airlines actually need paying passengers in order to survive:sad:. So as long as the general public is scared about the economy, and tightening their travel schedules and vacations, we might be in for a slow ride down a bumpy, dusty road:uhoh:.

Gnirren, we`re on the same page:ok:

To all wannabes;
If you want to pay for flying that`s great. Join a flying club or buy yourself an airplane and enjoy yourself:ok:. If you, on the otherhand, want to be a professional pilot (getting paid, and getting paid well), then do not accept "kind offers" of employment, provided you have to pay for a rating and/or training/hours and such. This only deminishes the possibilities of getting good T&Cs later on.

I've joined this debate before and I maintain now, as I did back then, the problem isn't the wannabees. It's us "older, wiser" heads.

The moment the companies started charging for training, the "established" pilots should have seen the decrease in T's and C's for all of us coming soon. Not to mention the "flood" of new pilots on the market and market forces dictate, the more of a commodity is available, the less it costs. A "withdrawl of labour" when all this started would have nipped all this nonsense in the bud.

But now, just take a look at what MOL at RYR is doing, flooding the market with lots of cadet 737 pilots, thus reducing the costs of the right hand seat. That in turn will then spread to the left hand seat as guys accept lower wages than the next man in order to get the job that five of us are all fighting for.

If, back when all this started, the established guys had fought instead of just laying down and accepting this because "it doesn't affect me", then we wouldn't be in this pickle that we're in now.

Pilots (allegedly) are some of the most clever, intellectual people around. I'd also include self serving and very, very, very short sighted. We only have ourselves to blame for this mess and only we as a pilot group can fix it. The wannabees aren't even in this industry yet. How the hell can they fix it? It's up to us.

Ironic really how times have changed for a while it was all about experience & you didn't even get a look in if you didn't have multi engine multi crew time but now all the experienced guys are being overlooked in favour of cadets!

It just shows really the airlines are run by beancounters who have no real regard for crew experience & given a choice I'm sure they would love to ditch the experienced crews as they are the timed served & more expensive ones :ugh:

I do agree though in the next aviation boom I think the airlines will struggle with getting crews although with the number of crews on the market that time will be a long way off :sad:

I TOTALLY agree with you Afinehelmet! That's what we (pilots) are...

Now to act together we can't even go trough one of our Union as they normally represent all of us. I mean wannaB, retired guys,...

And funny enough: On one side you have the wannaB who pay to fly and on the other the side retired pilots who keep hunting for job.

However, I understand that soon or later we have been or we will be facing the same situation: Build up some experience or Pay the bills.

I wonder if a 73 rating is a good idea at the moment even for those cadets with Ryanair. Either they will have to stay with the company for years on a reduced salary or they will try and leave whereupon they will find they are in a market with a mass of very experienced pilots.

Relax guys its a law of nature what goes up must come down. A couple of months ago oil was trading at $147 a barrel today its hovering around forty. thatys a drop of almost 70%. I remember about two years ago some commentators saying on tv that the days of $50 a barrel was never going to come back well here we are.
People will always travel especially here in west Africa where I'm based shame we dont have a national airline.Its only a matter of time before the airlines start recruiting again.

Wild goose

The retirement bulge has been around for years, never really materialises into anything.

Job security ain't gonna put any wannabe off, if they are prepared to spend thousands and fly for free, getting fired won't really be the worst thing that happens. Same with reduced t&c's.

When the recession ends there will still be a stream of wannabe's getting churned out bent over with their trouser's and jockey's at their ankles.

When the recession is over, the terms and conditions (unilaterally imposed of course) offered by most airlines will be the equivalent to flipping burgers at a well know 'Scottish' fast food restaurant.

Especially the Low costs will smell blood and will want to "drive down costs for the benefit of the consumer" (read: increase the CEO's bonus whilst undercutting the few remaining decent companies!) by further milking their poorly/un-unionized workforce.

Just look how much they got away with during the good years, now try to project that trend vector into the future. :\

Quite honest, if I lose my job I'm thinking about quitting aviation altogether if it means working for another low cost airline. Screw it! Let some other idiot pay for his type rating, work his b@lls off in a dry pressurized aluminium tube, feeding on uneatable crew food, working crazy hours in order to enjoy a lousy pension after 40 years of lining the CEO's pockets with share options. :}

Or am I too negative here...? ;)