Brookfield working practices, conditions, and Contracts
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Nuage blanc,
Dude !
you're way out of line as pointed out more subtily by others.
Ryanair attitude toward pilots (contract or not) is appauling for sure. And toward everything else for that matter !
easyJet not at all to be compared. Far from it for that matter. So get a clue !
Fact of the matter: Ryanair ways lie among the durty, stinky, layers of the bottom of the aviation pile in europe IMO, and for a major airline...(I do not even look at what's going on in sky europe and others....
)
This puts unequivocal pressure on the rest sitting in the upper fresh layers of the said pile.
So nuageblanc, enjoy your Air France working conditions while they last. Fight for them, strike, do whatever it takes, because the good days are counted now.
Dude !
you're way out of line as pointed out more subtily by others.Ryanair attitude toward pilots (contract or not) is appauling for sure. And toward everything else for that matter !
easyJet not at all to be compared. Far from it for that matter. So get a clue !
Fact of the matter: Ryanair ways lie among the durty, stinky, layers of the bottom of the aviation pile in europe IMO, and for a major airline...(I do not even look at what's going on in sky europe and others....
)This puts unequivocal pressure on the rest sitting in the upper fresh layers of the said pile.
So nuageblanc, enjoy your Air France working conditions while they last. Fight for them, strike, do whatever it takes, because the good days are counted now.
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VAT
I hear there are a few issues regards VAT payments at Brookfield at the moment. What I have heard is that BRK are refusing to pay the pilots because the Revenue is looking in to Brookfield's affairs.
I wonder if that is actually true, or just another way for Brookfield to not pay what is owed to the pilots working for them. My guess is the later.
I wonder if that is actually true, or just another way for Brookfield to not pay what is owed to the pilots working for them. My guess is the later.
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The Revenue has a long standing issue with contractors. For the moment the issue of whether conractors are in fact employees of Ryanair is not being looked at but is is something that the tax office is aware of.
The issue at the moment is that Brookfield have done nothing to ensure the tax compliance of their contractors. Revnue are concerned that there are a large number of pilots that are not paying any income tax on their earnings from Ryanair.
The main concern that the revenue have at the moment is that they have no idea if the pilots are tax compliant or not. All that Revenue are looking for is that brookfield and to a greater extent the pilots clean themselves up.
How many contractors send invoices to brookfield every month? NONE. I have made tax returns for a few contractor pilots and have also claimed refunds for a few of the overseas guys. The lack of invoices or receipts on both sides is an issue. Brookfield are paying hundreds of contractors every month, each of whom is self employed and they don't get an invoice from any of them.
The issue at the moment is that Brookfield have done nothing to ensure the tax compliance of their contractors. Revnue are concerned that there are a large number of pilots that are not paying any income tax on their earnings from Ryanair.
The main concern that the revenue have at the moment is that they have no idea if the pilots are tax compliant or not. All that Revenue are looking for is that brookfield and to a greater extent the pilots clean themselves up.
How many contractors send invoices to brookfield every month? NONE. I have made tax returns for a few contractor pilots and have also claimed refunds for a few of the overseas guys. The lack of invoices or receipts on both sides is an issue. Brookfield are paying hundreds of contractors every month, each of whom is self employed and they don't get an invoice from any of them.
Last edited by Gobnet; 5th May 2009 at 13:18.
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Brookfield look like they are cleaning things up.
They have stated in the new contracts that we are to account with one of 3 approved companies to ensure tax compliance. Each company has an agreement with Brookfield and they have a knowledge of the system and how things are done.
Nick
They have stated in the new contracts that we are to account with one of 3 approved companies to ensure tax compliance. Each company has an agreement with Brookfield and they have a knowledge of the system and how things are done.
Nick
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i would encourage people to go self assessment - register for VAT and do it alone
I would guess,although i dont know for sure, that Brookfield are getting a big golden handshake from these accountants for the business they will give them.Brookfield help nobody but themselves,if there is nothing in it for them then they would not recommend accountancy firms
Overpriced
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I would guess,although i dont know for sure, that Brookfield are getting a big golden handshake from these accountants for the business they will give them.Brookfield help nobody but themselves,if there is nothing in it for them then they would not recommend accountancy firms
Overpriced
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Leeds,
We have no choice as it is written in the contract that they will only deal with us if we account with the selected firms to ensure that we all comply with the Irish tax laws.
Believe me I had it all planned and setup (which was a waste of time and money) really nice accountant who was friendly and realisticly priced, ah well....
Nick
We have no choice as it is written in the contract that they will only deal with us if we account with the selected firms to ensure that we all comply with the Irish tax laws.
Believe me I had it all planned and setup (which was a waste of time and money) really nice accountant who was friendly and realisticly priced, ah well....
Nick
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Nick14
Could I suggest that you read and reread the Brookfield contract. If you look closely it does NOT require that you must use any of the accountants mentioned. A brief glance at the contract might suggest this but if you are only having a brief glance they you deseve to be ripped off. When you look at the wording it says otherwise. There is plenty of choice out there.
When you ask basic questions about how much experience some of these accountancy compaines have with Brookfield, Ryanair or contract pilots in general you might be surprised at what you will find out. For a company charging 3% of your annual turnover I would expect these guys to know the airline industry inside out. I can assure you this is far from the case. You have lots of choices out there Nick. Dont get ripped off by accountants, things are bad enough as it is
Could I suggest that you read and reread the Brookfield contract. If you look closely it does NOT require that you must use any of the accountants mentioned. A brief glance at the contract might suggest this but if you are only having a brief glance they you deseve to be ripped off. When you look at the wording it says otherwise. There is plenty of choice out there.
When you ask basic questions about how much experience some of these accountancy compaines have with Brookfield, Ryanair or contract pilots in general you might be surprised at what you will find out. For a company charging 3% of your annual turnover I would expect these guys to know the airline industry inside out. I can assure you this is far from the case. You have lots of choices out there Nick. Dont get ripped off by accountants, things are bad enough as it is
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nick14
Whoever or what ever has told you that you must account with a particular company which is linked to Brookfield is talking rubbish. You can not be forced to account with anyone. If it clearly states that in your contract I would get that bit of paper and take it to an employment lawer before you even think about putting your name on it.
If you are self employed, you are not required to have an accountant. You can do all of your accounting and HMRC returns yourself.
I am not sure what Brookfield has to do with Irish Tax Law, as if you are working for a company, (i.e, yourself), you pay tax where your company is based and registered.
With regards to VAT, I have no idea about the Irish system, but here in the UK, you must charge it and it must be paid if you are VAT registered. How you offset it and pay the Revenue will fall under either the fixed rate or normal accounting systems. Either way, you MUST produce a VAT invoice that MUST be sent to Brookfield. This should be done every month, but Brookfield have made it clear that they will only pay VAT every quarter, (even though they are supposed to pay it monthly), and that will be once they have claimed thier VAT back from HMRC. This normally means that you as the pilot paying VAT to HMRC are out of pocket a few thousand pounds plus for at least a month.
Dealing with Brookfield is very difficult. Even though DD is the only person that you ever deal with, (as it seems no one else has the authority to fart without his say so), and there are only 7 odd people who work in the office, every time you talk to them about anything, it is being dealt with by someone else. Eventually though it always ends up being DD that tells you that it isnt going to happen.
Out of interest, what are the new contracts like. Have the pay rates all changed?
If you are self employed, you are not required to have an accountant. You can do all of your accounting and HMRC returns yourself.
I am not sure what Brookfield has to do with Irish Tax Law, as if you are working for a company, (i.e, yourself), you pay tax where your company is based and registered.
With regards to VAT, I have no idea about the Irish system, but here in the UK, you must charge it and it must be paid if you are VAT registered. How you offset it and pay the Revenue will fall under either the fixed rate or normal accounting systems. Either way, you MUST produce a VAT invoice that MUST be sent to Brookfield. This should be done every month, but Brookfield have made it clear that they will only pay VAT every quarter, (even though they are supposed to pay it monthly), and that will be once they have claimed thier VAT back from HMRC. This normally means that you as the pilot paying VAT to HMRC are out of pocket a few thousand pounds plus for at least a month.
Dealing with Brookfield is very difficult. Even though DD is the only person that you ever deal with, (as it seems no one else has the authority to fart without his say so), and there are only 7 odd people who work in the office, every time you talk to them about anything, it is being dealt with by someone else. Eventually though it always ends up being DD that tells you that it isnt going to happen.
Out of interest, what are the new contracts like. Have the pay rates all changed?
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Brookfield
Hey guys, don't like the contract?Don't sign it...stay on the dole....
I've done four (4) overseas contracts with Brookfield and have never, ever had a problem re:receiving my pay, or working conditions...
Quite the opposite...I can't get a job with them anymore because my experience is mostly on the B-727, although I am also typed on the 737...
Probably because too many folks are out there who have the right of abode are taking the slots to gain time and experience and not be greatful for the opportunity they're being offered.
Times have changed...go with it or stop your whining and find some other occupation...
By the way, David and Bernie, if you're out there, you know who I am, and as always, I'm still availabe....IMHO you are still the best contractors I've ever worked for....
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Income tax in Ireland and the UK is paid under the self assessment system. This means that the tax payer is responsible for returning their taxes to Revenue. From a legal point of view then Brookfield simply can't make you use a specific accountant unless Brookfield are willing to indemnify you against any mistakes that the accountant might make. YOu are respnsible for filing the tax return so if the accountant fails to do it Revenue won't care. The bailiff will arrive at your door and not your back street accountant's.
Putting large amounts of money into a pension solely for tax planning purposes is a nonsense. Also you can assume that the maximum commission on each pension contribution is being taken by your "advisor".
A reputable frim should charge a fee on a flat rate basis. There is the same amount of work and administration involved for a captain as a cadet and they should both be charged the same amount for accountancy and tax advice.
Putting large amounts of money into a pension solely for tax planning purposes is a nonsense. Also you can assume that the maximum commission on each pension contribution is being taken by your "advisor".
A reputable frim should charge a fee on a flat rate basis. There is the same amount of work and administration involved for a captain as a cadet and they should both be charged the same amount for accountancy and tax advice.
Last edited by Gobnet; 5th May 2009 at 13:19.
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This is from brookfield:
"It is Brookfield Aviations policy that we will only utilize the services of a pilot who is operating in a fully compliant manner, that can be verified by brookfield, in relation to their taxation status. Your contract obliges you declare your income in Ireland and your Ltd Company is responsible for paying Pay related Social Insurance and contributions and PAYE tax to the Irish Revenue Commissioners. You will need to contact one of a number of accountancy firms listed below who can manage your taxation affairs for you. These accountancy firms are acceptable to Brookfield on the basis that they have demonstrated an understanding of your needs to Brookfield. In order to make your first payment we will require confirmation from one of these accountancy firms that you have engaged them in the required manner.
It must be clearly understood that the accountancy firms listed below have no association with Brookfield and Brookfield can accept no liability for any losses which may be occasioned to you as a result of any actions or omissions by whichever accountancy firm you choose to retain."
So we must pay tax in Ireland and account with one of 3 firms or they won't deal with us, seems pretty cut and dry to me.
The pay rates have gone down slightyly yes:
35.5/sbh for line training
55.5/sbh for <500hrs
70.5/sbh for >500hrs
78.5/sbh for >1500hrs
Nick
"It is Brookfield Aviations policy that we will only utilize the services of a pilot who is operating in a fully compliant manner, that can be verified by brookfield, in relation to their taxation status. Your contract obliges you declare your income in Ireland and your Ltd Company is responsible for paying Pay related Social Insurance and contributions and PAYE tax to the Irish Revenue Commissioners. You will need to contact one of a number of accountancy firms listed below who can manage your taxation affairs for you. These accountancy firms are acceptable to Brookfield on the basis that they have demonstrated an understanding of your needs to Brookfield. In order to make your first payment we will require confirmation from one of these accountancy firms that you have engaged them in the required manner.
It must be clearly understood that the accountancy firms listed below have no association with Brookfield and Brookfield can accept no liability for any losses which may be occasioned to you as a result of any actions or omissions by whichever accountancy firm you choose to retain."
So we must pay tax in Ireland and account with one of 3 firms or they won't deal with us, seems pretty cut and dry to me.
The pay rates have gone down slightyly yes:
35.5/sbh for line training
55.5/sbh for <500hrs
70.5/sbh for >500hrs
78.5/sbh for >1500hrs
Nick
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So you pay your social insurance to the Irish, but if you are based away from Ireland, does the country where you are based know that you are not paying in to their system, how does this stack up?
Thread Starter
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How this will be working is the company will be registered in Ireland and will pay the corporation tax there. Your personal tax will then be organised and paid by your company out there. The Irish Revenue will then tell the UK Revenue that tax has been paid SOMEWHERE.
It does look like however there is now only the option of being a Ltd company, and no long Self Employed.
The problem is, what if you already had a Ltd company based in the UK. Brookfield can not force you to move that company, or wind it up, or start another.
DOWNIN3GREEN
I have no doubts that Brookfield could be good to work for on other contracts. The fact of the matter is, you bashing about in a 727 means that you have not worked for them in Ryanair. For some reason they show complete contempt for anyone who is assigned to FR. The reaeson you may have been paid on time working for someone else is that the company you were contracted to would pay on time. FR doesn't.
I suggest that you pay 25,000 Euro out of your own pocket, follow all the stupid restrictions and illegal rules and regulation that Brookfield try and enforce, and then go fly some line flights for a company that actually doesn't want to pay anyone. Then tell us that BRK/FR are amazing.
It does look like however there is now only the option of being a Ltd company, and no long Self Employed.
The problem is, what if you already had a Ltd company based in the UK. Brookfield can not force you to move that company, or wind it up, or start another.
DOWNIN3GREEN
I have no doubts that Brookfield could be good to work for on other contracts. The fact of the matter is, you bashing about in a 727 means that you have not worked for them in Ryanair. For some reason they show complete contempt for anyone who is assigned to FR. The reaeson you may have been paid on time working for someone else is that the company you were contracted to would pay on time. FR doesn't.
I suggest that you pay 25,000 Euro out of your own pocket, follow all the stupid restrictions and illegal rules and regulation that Brookfield try and enforce, and then go fly some line flights for a company that actually doesn't want to pay anyone. Then tell us that BRK/FR are amazing.
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Quote:
It must be clearly understood that the accountancy firms listed below have no association with Brookfield and Brookfield can accept no liability for any losses which may be occasioned to you as a result of any actions or omissions by whichever accountancy firm you choose to retain."
Unquote
Nick14:
Well they do have an association with Brookfield....They have stated it in the contract that they are the only ones acceptable. Yes, they have you by the balls if you want a job...but I think you might find that the little indemnity that they have written into the contract for themselves wouldnt be worth the paper it's written on in a court of law.
On one hand they are saying that these companies are the only ones acceptable to Brookfield and they are saying on the other that they aint responsible if it all goes pear shaped.
Now, if you were a Judge in a courtroom what would you think if you had a guy being prosecuted for underdeclaring taxes etc and he presented you with a copy of the above statement? Do bear in mind that under European Competition Law that it is ILLEGAL to limit your right to chose who you use as a financial adviser/accountant or anything else for that matter. So not only do they become liable if your accountant/financial adviser screws up but a little call to the competition authority might generate more than a little interest! Me thinks that these individuals are trying to be too smart for their own good again! It's probably some piece that they cut and paste together thinking that all pilots are thick and that they would accept this tripe as Gospel!
Just Remember: IT'S NOT WORTH THE PAPER IT'S WRITTEN ON!
It must be clearly understood that the accountancy firms listed below have no association with Brookfield and Brookfield can accept no liability for any losses which may be occasioned to you as a result of any actions or omissions by whichever accountancy firm you choose to retain."
Unquote
Nick14:
Well they do have an association with Brookfield....They have stated it in the contract that they are the only ones acceptable. Yes, they have you by the balls if you want a job...but I think you might find that the little indemnity that they have written into the contract for themselves wouldnt be worth the paper it's written on in a court of law.
On one hand they are saying that these companies are the only ones acceptable to Brookfield and they are saying on the other that they aint responsible if it all goes pear shaped.
Now, if you were a Judge in a courtroom what would you think if you had a guy being prosecuted for underdeclaring taxes etc and he presented you with a copy of the above statement? Do bear in mind that under European Competition Law that it is ILLEGAL to limit your right to chose who you use as a financial adviser/accountant or anything else for that matter. So not only do they become liable if your accountant/financial adviser screws up but a little call to the competition authority might generate more than a little interest! Me thinks that these individuals are trying to be too smart for their own good again! It's probably some piece that they cut and paste together thinking that all pilots are thick and that they would accept this tripe as Gospel!
Just Remember: IT'S NOT WORTH THE PAPER IT'S WRITTEN ON!
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Furthermore, what you have quoted Nick is not in the contract. It is in the Frequently Asked Questions document which they send along with the contract. There is absolutely nothing in the contract which suggests you must use one of the accountants that they mention. Seems pretty cut and dry to me
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Know what you are putting your name on!!
Furthermore, what you have quoted Nick is not in the contract. It is in the Frequently Asked Questions document which they send along with the contract. There is absolutely nothing in the contract which suggests you must use one of the accountants that they mention. Seems pretty cut and dry to me
This is the kind of thing that you really need to be vey careful of. What IS in the contract and what you THINK is in the contract are very different things. Make sure you read what you are ACTUALLY signing.
It is not Brookfield's responsibility to ensure you are paying tax. If your Ltd Company chooses to break the rules, they are not responsible.
That is like saying if you hire a builder to do some work on your house, and he faulters on his tax liabilities, you as the person that has hired him to fix your roof would be in trouble.
The only reason that BRK are getting all worried about this stuff is because they are not doing things quite as they should, and they don't want HMRC looking into thier business goings on.
Anyway, no matter how you look at it, if you are a Ltd company, and are only working with BRK, and you have no other income from any other contracts, you are employed by them. The fact that your contract states very clearly that you can not operate any other aircraft shows that you are under BRK control 12 months of a year, regardless of if they take you off their books for that month "Unpaid Leave" to try and satisfy the rules.
(If you have ever worked for a temp agency doing factory work for instance, you will notice that no where in the contract you will have signed with them does it say that you can not work anywhere else).
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True,
Im not trying to argue with you at all, im merely looking for some advice as I and many others are in this situation.
It is from the FAQ and there is nothing that says in the contrac that we must account with the 3 chosen companies.
It says we shoud have a ltd company registered in Ireland and pay Irish tax. Further to this in the FAQ is gives us a rundown of what is required to contract through brookfield and get paid, accounting with one of the companies provided is a requirement.
What would you do? Kick up a fuss?
Nick
Im not trying to argue with you at all, im merely looking for some advice as I and many others are in this situation.
It is from the FAQ and there is nothing that says in the contrac that we must account with the 3 chosen companies.
It says we shoud have a ltd company registered in Ireland and pay Irish tax. Further to this in the FAQ is gives us a rundown of what is required to contract through brookfield and get paid, accounting with one of the companies provided is a requirement.
What would you do? Kick up a fuss?
Nick
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Nick,
It is important to remember that persons offering you advice on a forum such as this are anonymous and may be totally unqualified to offer such advice. Some of it seems very good but how can you distinguish the genuine from the mischievous or just plain daft? Even people describing their own experience may be serving some agenda other than your best interest. It is not unknown for FR management to contribute to these forums with the express intent of misleading pilots. I suggest that you contact your union for advice. At the very least, they can warn you if any of the accountants stipulated by Brookfield are in any way unsavoury.
It is important to remember that persons offering you advice on a forum such as this are anonymous and may be totally unqualified to offer such advice. Some of it seems very good but how can you distinguish the genuine from the mischievous or just plain daft? Even people describing their own experience may be serving some agenda other than your best interest. It is not unknown for FR management to contribute to these forums with the express intent of misleading pilots. I suggest that you contact your union for advice. At the very least, they can warn you if any of the accountants stipulated by Brookfield are in any way unsavoury.
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The companies are named in the Ryanair Cadet contracts thread in Interview jobs and sponsorship forum. Im sure no one is willing to put themselves at risk by naming them here.
Its a business I guess, everyone is trying to make the most money they can.
Nick
Its a business I guess, everyone is trying to make the most money they can.
Nick