UK Redundancy Law

[Mister Geezer]

Hi Folks

I am currently drawing up a contingency plan in case I find myself 'surplus to requirements' early next year with my present airline. My current outfit will undergo a major period of restructuring in Feb 09 and there is a possibility that we will be over crewed as a result of the new shape that the company will take. In fact, the situation is very fluid and it could range from us being under crewed right to the other end of the spectrum, with possible redundancies being made.

My knowledge on this topic is vague so any rough answers to these questions would be appreciated since it will help me focus on what areas I may wish to get legal advice on and investigate further.

We operate 2 fleets and I am placed towards the end of the seniority ladder for Captains on the fleet that I am on. However when combining the crews from both fleets, then I am more comfortably placed. If one fleet is more over crewed than another, then can crews from the over crewed fleet be made redundant in preference to the crew from another fleet, or is the 'Last In First Out' principle applied to everyone, regardless of what they fly?

Finally, I am a Line Trainer so would that give me any extra security? I suspect that it won't but if anyone has any finer details regarding this then I would be much obliged!

Thanks for your time....

[no sponsor]

Companies don't make people redundant, they make the roles that individuals occupy redundant.

I would either speak to Balpa, or go to the citizens advice bureau and get a pack on the law.

[Juan Tugoh]

LIFO is illegal, a company cannot make someone redundant and then put someone else in that position, because as already stated by NS it is the position that is removed. So if the position is removed, the person occupying said position goes too. Seniority will not protect you against redundancy if your fleet goes and another stays.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Employment law is not simple, the basics of it are i.e. that a single job can be made redundant and that job cannot be filled again for a period of six months OR that it can be changed. You are then faced with a take it or leave it offer - but that has limits.

Useful advice is; take time to visit your local library for a couple of hours, seek out the latest books on employment law, and write down all the relevancies in employment that concern you.

Best wishes.

[CAT1 REVERSION]

Unfortunately UK law is lagging behind some of our European neighbours!

I've had the unfortunate experience of being made redundant twice from companies with arm's in Europe. Needless to say it was much easier to close the UK concern over the German and French, as thier laws protect them sooooooo much more than ours!!!

Look at the recent XL fiasco, I think I'm right in saying the European contingency kept their jobs.

About time the government pulled out their fingers and started to protect workers the same as in Europe instead of us beng the 'easy' option for closure.

[spinnaker]

There is a positive side to the skewed UK/EU employment conditions, in so far that it helps make the UK an attractive proposition for businesses to invest here. I would agree, that there is little comfort in this right now, but the UK could be the first country to see investment and employment prospects when things bottom out and start to turn around. I know that when your livelihood is threatened, there is a sense of injustice when you know that your European colleagues enjoy a more protected workplace.

If anyone feels that they are under threat of losing their job, there must be many. Think about how you will deal with unemployment now, before it happens. I mention this, because its happened to me a few times and it truly is devastating.

BTW Unemployment is not a disease, its a reflection of someone else's failure to run the business, so do not allow feelings of failure.

[wheelbarrow]

One thing to be aware of is that if it does come down to involuntary redundancy you need to check what the terms will be. If your company only offers 'statutory' redundancy you will only get the maximum legal payment, something a little over 200 quid per qualifying week. Something to bear in mind if voluntary redundancy is offered, probably on better terms.

[CAT1 REVERSION]

Just as a side step from the original post, does anyone know where you stand if you are made redundant and paying back a bond/loan such as the TRSS scheme or CTRS scheme.

I know with the CTRS scheme you take out the Type rating loan with the bank (HSBC) and your employer pays the repayments!

Are you still responsible for the repayments if your employer makes you redundant, or is there some kind of Insurance your employer takes out in the event of to protect themselves and the employee?

I'm guessing you would be left high and dry!

[757_Driver]

About time the government pulled out their fingers and started to protect workers the same as in Europe instead of us beng the 'easy' option for closure.

easy tiger. If we had the same 'protection' as mainland europe most of us wouldn't have a job to loose. Like all things, the big picture is dramatically different to any cherry picked viewpoint.
The majority of EU investment comes into the UK, because our employment marked is so flexible.

Anyhoo, in answer to the origonal question - employment law is very very complicated and in many cases the line is fine and really only a test case in an appeal court decides what the 'law' really is.
LIFO is, AFAIK, not 'illegal' per se, but currently assumed to be sufficiently contestable which is why most companies use more objective criteria. Personally I would ask BALPA or another union, or a freindly employment lawyer.

[PaulJ1957]

Reverting back to the original question, selection for a redundancy has to be made from a "pool" of eligible employees, using an objective method of selection (eg length of service, required skills etc). It is not laid down in law how you determine the appropriate pool: it could be eg one location or all locations OR one fleet or both fleets etc. The key is for the company to act , and to be seen to act, reasonably since otherwise they could end up with a hefty claim for unfair dismissal

[Ding-Dong]

Last in - first out.

Is the last in, first out redundancy policy a legal one! Just thinking about all those who have recently gained a new employer!!

[Parsnip]

Mister Geezer
This link might be useful
:Redundancy Defined

LIFO is not used these days in any properly regulated employment, it is an old TUC favourite form the shipyards.Basically an employer has the right to make choices from a pool of similarly qualified employees if no one wishes to go voluntarily.The choice can be made from various criteria which can include length of service, relevant experience sickness absence etc all of which should ideally be agreed in advance with the relevant trade union recognised for collective bargaining or staff association.Obviously inadmissable criteria are sex, age race et al.

[Pilot Pete]

LIFO is not used these days in any properly regulated employment

Where did you get that from? As I understand it, BALPA have paid their top employment lawyers vast sums of money and they reckon that LIFO is still the most legally defensible position, as opposed to many airline employers who feel it isn't (and they have paid their employment lawyers vast sums too!)

Fact is no one in this industry really knows since the employment laws were changed a year or two back. The good thing from your point of view is that employers are going to be reluctant to lay people off compulsorily as it is pretty much uncharted waters again and many will feel reluctant to be part of a test case! This is more true if you are in a well represented, unionised airline. This comes from my airline who are restructuring after merger and having offered the first round of VR and are now deep in negotiations with BALPA over the next offering.

Good luck

PP

[Parsnip]

Where did I get that from? Experience of Industrial relations...but don't confuse LIFO with experience i.e Say Captain Jones has worked for shall we say BA for 20 years and of that ,say 18 on B737 and 2 on A330, and he's in a pool for redundancy with another Captain Smith who has only worked for BA for 3 years but has 15 years experience on buses. Smith would score less on length of service but distinctly more on experience,then the employer would likely look at personnel records , sickness disciplinary and make a choice from that.Long Service will come into it, but will not be the sole criteria in a well run organisation

[Mister Geezer]

Thanks to everyone for their input...

If things do turn sour then the one word that has been mentioned is 'seniority' which in essence is LIFO. We have no union representation or recognition but we do have a reasonably good working relationship with management.

In my case the fleet that I am on will be restructured but the other fleet in the company will go untouched. Are pilots on the other fleet likely to be affected or can such a situation remain 'type specific'?

The one thing I can't get my head round is that it appears that the position has to be made redundant and not the person. When looking at this in greater detail, if an airline has too many Skippers for example, if the position was made redundant then in theory there would be no crew left? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick. Perhaps this is where BALPA have fought for the LIFO principle?

Parsnip - Thanks for your help with posting that link. Very interesting.

[BikerMark]

Lots of downloadable documents from the BERR website.

Start from Reports & Publications - welcome - BERR and search from there.

Being a government web site, you're getting stuff from the horses mouth.

Unfortunately, when you read the documents, you begin to realise how little protection is offered by UK employment law.

[Parsnip]

MrG
The employer has two types in the fleet and needs less captains for one type, will the redundancies be specifically amongst those that are employed on the reducing type fleet?
If so then an interesting point arises if anyone selected for redundancy has multi type ratings.As I see it the pool from which selection is made should be only those who are solely type rated for the reducing fleet.
Another point on LIFO arose a few years back in a supermarket.An 18 yr old checkout operator was made redundant under LIFO.She successfully claimed "reverse" age discrimination on the grounds that a 60 year old operator with long service had been kept on under LIFO procedures.Many Personnel Managers then began to look very carefully at LIFO and as I said before it is not a wise employer who uses it as sole criteria for selection.
Even if your workplace isn't unionised the Employer still has a duty to agree the means of selection for redundancy with staff representatives.
So...get yourselves organised and good luck!