VA - no more pilot group, we want pilots and CC together
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VA - no more pilot group, we want pilots and CC together
V Australia is aggressively asking the small number of initial pilots who have joined on individual contracts to sign a new 5 year EBA that yes get this .... includes the Cabin Crew. Under the new agreement all pilots current and future to be employed will be in a joint EBA with cabin crew, where any conditions for pilots will be jointly voted on. So even if all pilots voted no for something, at a ratio of approx 6:1 nothing will every be achieved if half the CC vote yes. I don't know any other airline where pilots and CC are under a joint EBA. Imagine leaving your wages, days off, duty limits, super, penalty, career progression etc be in the hands of 20 y/o + something flighties on 35G. (no offense to CC by the way). I seriously hope the guys/girls don't get fooled into this. Vote will be as early as next week.
...Doctors aren't included with nurses. Lawyers aren't under court reporter ebas. .... Dont do it guys. !!!!!!
PS i would post the AFAP letter if I knew how. Anyone who can, it may be a good idea.
...Doctors aren't included with nurses. Lawyers aren't under court reporter ebas. .... Dont do it guys. !!!!!!
PS i would post the AFAP letter if I knew how. Anyone who can, it may be a good idea.
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Welcome to the top of a very slippery slope!
Cabin Crew require no professional qualifications, they need no license, they do SEP exams once a year, not a route check, LPC, OPC medical and IR every year. They do not, physically, have the safety of the aircraft, passengers and crew in their hands. They do not need to judge, collate and rationalise the myriad of variables that an international or domestic flight takes.
Finally, CC do not sign for the aircraft and do not have the Captains laid down legal responsibilities.
Ever seen an incident/accident report with a cause of Cabin Crew error?
This takes our PROFESSION to an all time low.
Sadly I think there are many other companies looking at the same.
Cabin Crew require no professional qualifications, they need no license, they do SEP exams once a year, not a route check, LPC, OPC medical and IR every year. They do not, physically, have the safety of the aircraft, passengers and crew in their hands. They do not need to judge, collate and rationalise the myriad of variables that an international or domestic flight takes.
Finally, CC do not sign for the aircraft and do not have the Captains laid down legal responsibilities.
Ever seen an incident/accident report with a cause of Cabin Crew error?
This takes our PROFESSION to an all time low.
Sadly I think there are many other companies looking at the same.
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I know that this section is a Flight Crew forum, but cabin crew still read it, so please be a bit tactfull, try not to alienate us, particularly when such an important matter is potentially to be decided by us purely because we are a larger group!
VA Cabin Crew trainees, including a large number who have never flown before, so have now idea what airlines can sometimes be like, are being given lengthy brain washing sessions on how wonderfull the new collective agreement is, and how we should all simply trust the company and that they have our interests and wellbeing at heart!
Anyone who has some spare time, and seriously cares about this, please get down to the training centres and try to speak to some of the crew! Make sure they understand your concerns about the agreement, not just that it is combined.
If you are unable to get to a training centre, please email me at [email protected] and I will endeavour to pass on your thoughts and opinions.
VA Cabin Crew trainees, including a large number who have never flown before, so have now idea what airlines can sometimes be like, are being given lengthy brain washing sessions on how wonderfull the new collective agreement is, and how we should all simply trust the company and that they have our interests and wellbeing at heart!
Anyone who has some spare time, and seriously cares about this, please get down to the training centres and try to speak to some of the crew! Make sure they understand your concerns about the agreement, not just that it is combined.
If you are unable to get to a training centre, please email me at [email protected] and I will endeavour to pass on your thoughts and opinions.
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V-Australia Union
I wasn't trying to alienate you or be less than tactful. My post above simply points out the primary differences between CC and pilots.
Simply put Piloting is a profession, CC is not. Why should we be on the same contract? Culpability dictates that those driving deserve better T&C's than those required to shepherd the pax out of the doors in an emergency.
so please be a bit tactfull, try not to alienate us
Simply put Piloting is a profession, CC is not. Why should we be on the same contract? Culpability dictates that those driving deserve better T&C's than those required to shepherd the pax out of the doors in an emergency.
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I know that this section is a Flight Crew forum, but cabin crew still read it, so please be a bit tactfull, try not to alienate us, particularly when such an important matter is potentially to be decided by us purely because we are a larger group!
Lets face facts here.
These folks are a dime a dozen, have no professional qualifications, and in fact are actually responsible for....nothing
And, are easily replaced.
Pilots and CC...nothing in common, and it should be kept firmly that way.
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Wobbleplank, you're attitude is the worst I've seen in a very very long time. Actually, most pilots know that cabin crew play a vital part in safety and we usually need to work together as a team with pilots when things go pear-shaped.
Cabin Crew are on a look out for safety and security concerns in the cabin, deal with passengers who are angry about delays, trained in first aid (we might even save your life one day!) and are the one's who'll be fighting the in-flight fire. Not to mention we'll prepare your refreshments and might be the only smile you'll see for 14 hours.
Meanwhile, some people might think that pilots are essentially machine operators with a big pay-packet plus plenty of benefits and can easily be made redundant when computer technology advances enough (such as driver-less trains) and we'll see less Pilot-error incidents when this happens. (see the SLF forums for examples of this mentality).
So, instead of belittling cabin crew, why not show us some of your professionalism and try to reinforce the good job you folk actually do do!
And on the note of it being a profession, not all cabin crew are 20 doing it as their GAP year. Just look at some of the old battle-axes (sorry, senior professionals) pushing that trolley up and down the aisle in BA (sorry BA, couldn't resist).
Cabin Crew are on a look out for safety and security concerns in the cabin, deal with passengers who are angry about delays, trained in first aid (we might even save your life one day!) and are the one's who'll be fighting the in-flight fire. Not to mention we'll prepare your refreshments and might be the only smile you'll see for 14 hours.
Meanwhile, some people might think that pilots are essentially machine operators with a big pay-packet plus plenty of benefits and can easily be made redundant when computer technology advances enough (such as driver-less trains) and we'll see less Pilot-error incidents when this happens. (see the SLF forums for examples of this mentality).
So, instead of belittling cabin crew, why not show us some of your professionalism and try to reinforce the good job you folk actually do do!
And on the note of it being a profession, not all cabin crew are 20 doing it as their GAP year. Just look at some of the old battle-axes (sorry, senior professionals) pushing that trolley up and down the aisle in BA (sorry BA, couldn't resist).
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411A,
It really depends.Ive seen some FA's who are excellent and their role can really determine level of customer loyalty.I would say a good lead FA(say 35-40+) is NOT easy to replace at all.
As for safety,I always remember the case of the lead FA saving the skipper at Tenerife and saving many of her passengers lives as well.
So there are some good ones left... the lead FA is a crucial role in a legacy carrier and should be paid accordingly.
It really depends.Ive seen some FA's who are excellent and their role can really determine level of customer loyalty.I would say a good lead FA(say 35-40+) is NOT easy to replace at all.
As for safety,I always remember the case of the lead FA saving the skipper at Tenerife and saving many of her passengers lives as well.
So there are some good ones left... the lead FA is a crucial role in a legacy carrier and should be paid accordingly.
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the lead FA is a crucial role in a legacy carrier and should be paid accordingly
Otherwise it matters not a jot (have you flown Ryanair?)
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Many years ago, in Canada, the AME "Aeronautical Maintenance Engineer" and the Ramp Staff "Baggage" joined the same union, the IAM.
It has been a disaster for the AME's.
They are a highly skilled trade together with an unskilled trade. The raw numbers are largely in favor of the Ramp staff which saw HUGE gains in their salary.
Decades later we now have AME's grossly underpaid, and Rampies grossly overpaid.
Pilots and F/A's in the same union..please say NEVER in a million years.
It has been a disaster for the AME's.
They are a highly skilled trade together with an unskilled trade. The raw numbers are largely in favor of the Ramp staff which saw HUGE gains in their salary.
Decades later we now have AME's grossly underpaid, and Rampies grossly overpaid.
Pilots and F/A's in the same union..please say NEVER in a million years.
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WHY?
WHO WOULD BENEFIT?
WHO DREAMT IT UP?
I say again. Imagine letting flight attendants have complete control in all your work conditions in future negotiations. PAY, Lifestyle, Promotion, Super, Duty Limits... Everything. Utterly rediculous.
The flight attendants here who find this a hit on them. Sorry its not. Its nothing against you all personally. But the facts are, CC are NOT pilots, you DO NOT have the qualifications or responsibility. These are facts! and therefore you should have NO SAY in the conditions or negotiations of a pilot group. THis is all fact. I am very certain CC would NOT want the pilot group saying what is fair for them. We dont and we dont want to.
ANYWAY please all V australia Pilots DO NOT vote yes for this. Your future will be in others peoples hands forever.
Last edited by PammyAnderson; 8th Oct 2008 at 03:13.
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Boardingpass,
As some of the more capable readers on this thread have pointed out you have missed my point entirely.
Cabin Crew do do a very good job. I personally get on extremely well with the cabin crew. The point to make is that under the FAA and CAA guidance the 1 member of Cabin Crew is required for each 50 pax in order to achieve a swift, co-ordinated evacuation if required.
Judges don't get the same T&C's as the court usher and neither do Doctors, Surgeons and Dentists get the same T's & C's as their nurses.
Professional qualifications demand professional pay and conditions. Simple as that. The airline management are at fault if they can't see that and bullying new entrants, who let's face it are still somewhat star struck whichever side of the door they work on, is plainly wrong.
As to let the computer do it. Would the computers have reacted immediately to the CAT in the QUANTAS case? Can computers judge poor weather conditions in a human sypathetic way and decide the path of least resistance through storms? Can the computers modify flight routes visually to achieve last minute emergency changes in ATC instructions. Unmanned aerial vehicles controlled from the ground have a spectacular accident rate as there is no jeopardy. Build a flight control computer that NEVER goes wrong and maybe, just maybe don't hold your breath though.
Just because a car has cruise control doesn't mean it can drive itself!
As some of the more capable readers on this thread have pointed out you have missed my point entirely.
Cabin Crew do do a very good job. I personally get on extremely well with the cabin crew. The point to make is that under the FAA and CAA guidance the 1 member of Cabin Crew is required for each 50 pax in order to achieve a swift, co-ordinated evacuation if required.
Judges don't get the same T&C's as the court usher and neither do Doctors, Surgeons and Dentists get the same T's & C's as their nurses.
Professional qualifications demand professional pay and conditions. Simple as that. The airline management are at fault if they can't see that and bullying new entrants, who let's face it are still somewhat star struck whichever side of the door they work on, is plainly wrong.
As to let the computer do it. Would the computers have reacted immediately to the CAT in the QUANTAS case? Can computers judge poor weather conditions in a human sypathetic way and decide the path of least resistance through storms? Can the computers modify flight routes visually to achieve last minute emergency changes in ATC instructions. Unmanned aerial vehicles controlled from the ground have a spectacular accident rate as there is no jeopardy. Build a flight control computer that NEVER goes wrong and maybe, just maybe don't hold your breath though.
Just because a car has cruise control doesn't mean it can drive itself!
Last edited by wobble2plank; 8th Oct 2008 at 08:55.
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wobbleplank, bowly, et al, I haven't missed the point at all. I agree with you that CC and Pilots shouldn't be voting together on T&C. We are a different kettle of fish altogether.
All I was saying was that it would be better you promoted the work pilots do, rather than belittling the work cc do. We get enough belittling from pax and management as it is, and your support would be much appreciated.
As for the ruffling of feathers I caused about replacing pilots with computers... this is certainly not an opinion of mine and am by no means suggesting it should be done if it even could be. I was merely pointing out there are some people (pax/managers) who think that way.
On a side note, there might be certain areas where cc/pilot joint action may be useful, such as fatigue, OHS standards, minimum rest, etc, but generally I would say this scheme would benefit the company more than anyone else...
P.S. I know Qantas has been having problems lately, but no ewes, please. We're not Air New Zealand.
All I was saying was that it would be better you promoted the work pilots do, rather than belittling the work cc do. We get enough belittling from pax and management as it is, and your support would be much appreciated.
As for the ruffling of feathers I caused about replacing pilots with computers... this is certainly not an opinion of mine and am by no means suggesting it should be done if it even could be. I was merely pointing out there are some people (pax/managers) who think that way.
On a side note, there might be certain areas where cc/pilot joint action may be useful, such as fatigue, OHS standards, minimum rest, etc, but generally I would say this scheme would benefit the company more than anyone else...
P.S. I know Qantas has been having problems lately, but no ewes, please. We're not Air New Zealand.
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F/A mistake number one! There is zero common interest for Pilots and F/A's.
Fatigue:
Pilot landing a widebody jet, after a max duty day, in bad weather, minimum fuel, alternate weather deteriorating.
F/A doing the last meal service.
Who's fatigue should we be the most worried about?
Fatigue:
Pilot landing a widebody jet, after a max duty day, in bad weather, minimum fuel, alternate weather deteriorating.
F/A doing the last meal service.
Who's fatigue should we be the most worried about?
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Sorry,
Queensland And New Territories Air Service (QANTAS)
There was, and I point it out again, NO belittling of Cabin Crew intended or even posted. Purely a point in case of the differences that those who fly the aircraft deal with every day.
Back to the point, do not ever,ever agree to such a ridiculous deal!
Queensland And New Territories Air Service (QANTAS)
There was, and I point it out again, NO belittling of Cabin Crew intended or even posted. Purely a point in case of the differences that those who fly the aircraft deal with every day.
Back to the point, do not ever,ever agree to such a ridiculous deal!
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If anyone wants to read the whole contract here is the link.
It in another thread. Really worth a read
cheers
PA
http://www.pprune.org/4448276-post55.html
and
http://www.pprune.org/4448285-post56.html
Some of the best bits though:
REMUNERATION
18. SALARY
18.1 If you are a full-time Employee, your starting salary will be no less than the applicable
salary set out below:
Classification Salary
Check and Training Captain $175,000 per year plus an additional 16% of this
amount for time spent performing check and/or training duties.
Training Captain $175,000 per year plus an additional 10% of this amount for time spent performing training duties.
Captain $175,000 per year.
8.
First Officer $114,000 per year.
Cruise Relief First Officer (with Airline Transport Pilot’s Licence)
$42,800 per year up to the successful completion of simulator checks and then $53,500 per year thereafter.
Cruise Relief First Officer (with Commercial Pilot’s Licence)
$38,220 per year up to the successful completion of simulator checks and then $47,775 per year thereafter.
Flight Manager $59,000 per year.
Cabin Leader $49,000 per year.
Cabin Crew (Level 2) $40,000 per year (following satisfactory performance in Level 1 after 12 months service).
Cabin Crew (Level 1) $37,500 per year.
And yes thats in AU dollars..
Imagine having Cabin Crew vote in the majority in your future negotiations if you take a pay cut even.... ??? the mind boggles
It in another thread. Really worth a read
cheers
PA
http://www.pprune.org/4448276-post55.html
and
http://www.pprune.org/4448285-post56.html
Some of the best bits though:
REMUNERATION
18. SALARY
18.1 If you are a full-time Employee, your starting salary will be no less than the applicable
salary set out below:
Classification Salary
Check and Training Captain $175,000 per year plus an additional 16% of this
amount for time spent performing check and/or training duties.
Training Captain $175,000 per year plus an additional 10% of this amount for time spent performing training duties.
Captain $175,000 per year.
8.
First Officer $114,000 per year.
Cruise Relief First Officer (with Airline Transport Pilot’s Licence)
$42,800 per year up to the successful completion of simulator checks and then $53,500 per year thereafter.
Cruise Relief First Officer (with Commercial Pilot’s Licence)
$38,220 per year up to the successful completion of simulator checks and then $47,775 per year thereafter.
Flight Manager $59,000 per year.
Cabin Leader $49,000 per year.
Cabin Crew (Level 2) $40,000 per year (following satisfactory performance in Level 1 after 12 months service).
Cabin Crew (Level 1) $37,500 per year.
And yes thats in AU dollars..
Imagine having Cabin Crew vote in the majority in your future negotiations if you take a pay cut even.... ??? the mind boggles
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1)
Currently both groups are on individual contracts, and this document is being put to a vote. Both groups are being asked to agree to go onto this one joint EBA. If this happens then YES all future negotiations and votes on conditions for pilots will include all CC. The pilots will be out numbered approx 6-1. So even if the company for example said we want all the pilots to give up a day off, work an extra 50 hours a year or even take a pay cut. A 100% no vote from the entire pilot group wouldnt matter if half the CC voted yes. Very Very scary thought.
Quote:
(2)
YES, I will soon as I hear anything.
Lets hope the pilot group dont agree to this. Once its in, its in forever.
Unclear if pilots and cc will vote together, or separately?
Quote:
(2)
Will you be able to post the results of the vote on this thread after the vote?
Lets hope the pilot group dont agree to this. Once its in, its in forever.
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CC and Flight Crew must be on seperate contracts. As must baggage handlers and engineers.
Pilots are highly trained individuals and have received their qualifications through hard work, long hours and large somes of money. Your salaries are therefore paid proportionately.
Pilots are only more important when part of the onboard hierarchy. Once away from the airport, they are simply fellow employees. Pilots do not deserve better standards of accommodation, higher allowances, first room allocation, better crew meals, higher priority staff travel, seperate crew transport, extra hotel freebies such as wi-fi or dry cleaning...
Pilots are highly trained individuals and have received their qualifications through hard work, long hours and large somes of money. Your salaries are therefore paid proportionately.
Pilots are only more important when part of the onboard hierarchy. Once away from the airport, they are simply fellow employees. Pilots do not deserve better standards of accommodation, higher allowances, first room allocation, better crew meals, higher priority staff travel, seperate crew transport, extra hotel freebies such as wi-fi or dry cleaning...