KLM
First, check and double check if you have attended the right kindergarten.
(ok seriously, at the moment you can only apply if you are ex-Dutch airforce, navy, NLS, KLS, or ab initio of a small number of Dutch flightschools)
(ok seriously, at the moment you can only apply if you are ex-Dutch airforce, navy, NLS, KLS, or ab initio of a small number of Dutch flightschools)
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Is that legal from an equality point of view? Is there not some EU directive or law that would prevent these kind of practices from happening?
Even if it is legal, I am disappointed that a company like KLM uses a system like this. Seems to me like you may just end up with too many people who are alike and think alike. Not unlike a small gene pool. A bit of fresh blood never hurts.
Even if it is legal, I am disappointed that a company like KLM uses a system like this. Seems to me like you may just end up with too many people who are alike and think alike. Not unlike a small gene pool. A bit of fresh blood never hurts.
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Hmmm...
I guess I'll have to ask this question again then in about 3/4 years time from now when the economy is in full swing and they can't get their quota filled by their "approved schools"
Was hoping to get in asap though with the old seniority kicking me back to bottom of the line. Thanks for the replies nonetheless.
I guess I'll have to ask this question again then in about 3/4 years time from now when the economy is in full swing and they can't get their quota filled by their "approved schools"
Was hoping to get in asap though with the old seniority kicking me back to bottom of the line. Thanks for the replies nonetheless.
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Ok here we go:
recruitment:
they only take low timers from the KLM Flight Academy when they need.
Also NLS, Martinair school and EPST were invited to be selected to undergo their Compressed Bridge Course (+12k) and then could get an interview.
Only a few made it.
qualifications:
So like above, or when times are good: 1000+ hours commercial flying.
Also, you have to have KLS, NLS background.
So in 99%, KLM only hires ex KLM FA.
They say the long way in is to become instructor at KLM FA and after some years you can get in.
It's not nice, but also not illegal, since they can claim to have enough new students coming from the KLM FA.
And the people that invented this form of malpractice, are the ones hired in the past with non KLM FA on they CV!
I heard many stories from insiders there that it is going to change but I am hearing this for years now.
recruitment:
they only take low timers from the KLM Flight Academy when they need.
Also NLS, Martinair school and EPST were invited to be selected to undergo their Compressed Bridge Course (+12k) and then could get an interview.
Only a few made it.
qualifications:
So like above, or when times are good: 1000+ hours commercial flying.
Also, you have to have KLS, NLS background.
So in 99%, KLM only hires ex KLM FA.
They say the long way in is to become instructor at KLM FA and after some years you can get in.
It's not nice, but also not illegal, since they can claim to have enough new students coming from the KLM FA.
And the people that invented this form of malpractice, are the ones hired in the past with non KLM FA on they CV!
I heard many stories from insiders there that it is going to change but I am hearing this for years now.
welcome to the reality of European legacy carriers... makes me puke as well....
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"It's not nice, but also not illegal"
There will be many legal experts attacking this point of view. As European company you can't select people with equal European qualifications (JAA) purely based on their followed initial flight school.
These things would maybe happen in certain developing countries. But in Holland, apparently also by the blue heron
. Other flag carriers in Europe are way more mature with equal opportunity.
There will be many legal experts attacking this point of view. As European company you can't select people with equal European qualifications (JAA) purely based on their followed initial flight school.
These things would maybe happen in certain developing countries. But in Holland, apparently also by the blue heron
. Other flag carriers in Europe are way more mature with equal opportunity.
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They only hire you if you did the TOP GUN school KLS, NLS. Because thats the best school in the world(not).
But if they are so good why do KLM pilots transmit on 121,5 all the time to call up dispatch or engineering? a lot off idiots there at KLM i do not want to work there. By the way i can not work there because i do not have Dockers Jeans so i will not match with them on layovers!
But if they are so good why do KLM pilots transmit on 121,5 all the time to call up dispatch or engineering? a lot off idiots there at KLM i do not want to work there. By the way i can not work there because i do not have Dockers Jeans so i will not match with them on layovers!
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PENKO, I agree. Air France advertises in Flight Intl for pilots, Lufthansa and BA take pilots regardless of where they did their training. For these carriers(and I am sure many of the other so called Flag Carriers) it is about the present and what you can bring to the table now. The way it should be. By all means reject people for not liking their flight experience, their attitude or their personality. Don’t do it the KLM and not even invite you for an interview if you haven’t got the right training credentials. It is not just silly, it reeks of an arrogance, and I wouldn't have thought this attitude was still prevalent today in certain companies.
Nice insular world you create this way. Having said that, I think you need to let go of your issues a bit there, Babemagnet You'll enjoy life more, I promise.
Nice insular world you create this way. Having said that, I think you need to let go of your issues a bit there, Babemagnet
You'll enjoy life more, I promise.
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I once called them to inquire about their recruitment, and the first question I got was: "did you go to the KLM Flight academy" to which I replied: "No, I went to a a FAR better one, the BELGIAN AVIATION SCHOOL (now Sabena Aviation Academy)".
The woman hung up the phone...
The woman hung up the phone...
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Sjeez, here we go again,
For some reason KLM's hiring practices always seem a topic of discussion and unfair compared to other major european flag carriers.
The current hiring practices are unfair, however, KFA is wholly owned by KLM. Of course they would go there first for newhire pilots. It's a major selling point to actract new students ( I would think that this is no different than LH when it comes to their flight school) When they still require students above what KFA can supply they go to different flight schools. They do have a preference for ab initio trained pilots (beats the hell out of me why) instead of high time pilots.
In the past the have hired high time pilots of the street ( I am one of them) however, current managment doesn't do that. Once again I do not support that.
But to suggest that the other major European flag carriers are more fair is RIDICULOUS. I think KLM is the ONLY carrier that hires non dutch nationals that are not fluent in the dutch language. LH, AF, IB, AZ etc, You will not get hired there unless you are fluent in the national language (please, give me one example to prove me wrong) most of those airlines have the entire selection proces in the national language. KLM only requires that you learn the dutch language within a given period, witch has never been enforced. NO pilot has EVER been fired for not knowing the language!!!!!!!
Please, give me one example of LH, AF, IB or AZ where a pilot got hired that wasn't fluent in the national language ( I won't mention BA because everybody is supposed to be fluent in english).
At the moment KLM prefers AI new hires (once again I don't know why, and I don't approve) They go to KFA, once again, why not? it is their own flight school, but lately? KFA has not been able to supply enough pilots and they have looked to other flight schools. One of those flight schools is for example Oxford.
So their only difference is they prefer AI above high time, it's a mentality, other MEFC prefer high time instead of AI. are they discriminatory???
It's a current practice, in the past KLM has hired pilots from all over the world. I don't have the numbers to back it up but I would dare to go out on a limb and claim that KLM ( besides BA and perhaps LH) is the major European flag carrier that has relatively the most non national pilots than any other MEFC, We have pilots from the US, CAN, AUS and various other european
countries. Can AF, IB, AZ claim the same?
So, in closing, I would like to ask any of the people on this thread complaining about KLM hiring practices if they have been able to get hired at LH, AF, IB or AZ! probably not because they didn't speak the national language!!! Is that not discriminatory, however, I read very little complaining about that!!!
P.S. About the dockers paints, dude, get a life!!!!
For some reason KLM's hiring practices always seem a topic of discussion and unfair compared to other major european flag carriers.
The current hiring practices are unfair, however, KFA is wholly owned by KLM. Of course they would go there first for newhire pilots. It's a major selling point to actract new students ( I would think that this is no different than LH when it comes to their flight school) When they still require students above what KFA can supply they go to different flight schools. They do have a preference for ab initio trained pilots (beats the hell out of me why) instead of high time pilots.
In the past the have hired high time pilots of the street ( I am one of them) however, current managment doesn't do that. Once again I do not support that.
But to suggest that the other major European flag carriers are more fair is RIDICULOUS. I think KLM is the ONLY carrier that hires non dutch nationals that are not fluent in the dutch language. LH, AF, IB, AZ etc, You will not get hired there unless you are fluent in the national language (please, give me one example to prove me wrong) most of those airlines have the entire selection proces in the national language. KLM only requires that you learn the dutch language within a given period, witch has never been enforced. NO pilot has EVER been fired for not knowing the language!!!!!!!
Please, give me one example of LH, AF, IB or AZ where a pilot got hired that wasn't fluent in the national language ( I won't mention BA because everybody is supposed to be fluent in english).
At the moment KLM prefers AI new hires (once again I don't know why, and I don't approve) They go to KFA, once again, why not? it is their own flight school, but lately? KFA has not been able to supply enough pilots and they have looked to other flight schools. One of those flight schools is for example Oxford.
So their only difference is they prefer AI above high time, it's a mentality, other MEFC prefer high time instead of AI. are they discriminatory???
It's a current practice, in the past KLM has hired pilots from all over the world. I don't have the numbers to back it up but I would dare to go out on a limb and claim that KLM ( besides BA and perhaps LH) is the major European flag carrier that has relatively the most non national pilots than any other MEFC, We have pilots from the US, CAN, AUS and various other european
countries. Can AF, IB, AZ claim the same?
So, in closing, I would like to ask any of the people on this thread complaining about KLM hiring practices if they have been able to get hired at LH, AF, IB or AZ! probably not because they didn't speak the national language!!! Is that not discriminatory, however, I read very little complaining about that!!!
P.S. About the dockers paints, dude, get a life!!!!
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This is not correct, from September 2006 ALL new hires to KLM must be fluent to level B1 european standard in the Dutch language (If you doubt me Flyburg then check the CLA!). Only the ex UK pilots who were successful at the selection were given the exception (and i quote) "must be fluent to Level B1 european standard before accepting their next function in the KLM".
KLM's hiring practices are BLATANTLY illegal, the way the UK pilots were treated was pure discrimination.
Still the French are marching their way here ;-)
KLM's hiring practices are BLATANTLY illegal, the way the UK pilots were treated was pure discrimination.
Still the French are marching their way here ;-)
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Well Blue pilot,
Please point out the chapter in the CLA where it states that pilots have to be fluent in the dutch language. It isn't there.
However, A recent change in the part A, specifically states that conversation in the cockpit shall be in dutch or ENGLISH!!!!!
give me a second and I'll look it up.
BTW, I don't even know what B1 european dutch standard is??
Please point out the chapter in the CLA where it states that pilots have to be fluent in the dutch language. It isn't there.
However, A recent change in the part A, specifically states that conversation in the cockpit shall be in dutch or ENGLISH!!!!!
give me a second and I'll look it up.
BTW, I don't even know what B1 european dutch standard is??
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It was a change bought about by whining 737 captains complaining about having to speak english all day when flying with certain ex UK first officers, it is dated september 2006 and ratified by the VNV, perhaps you can find it on the VNV website in the archives.
The fact is that to join KLM now you must have been trained by KLS NLS or the Dutch military AND speak Dutch to Level B1 standard. These practices are illegal and protectionary.
KLM may be a great employer when on the inside, but their practices are far from fair. They took over Airuk within the D and K accord agreed that effectivly all the Airuk jobs over time would be transferred to Holland (KLCuk could not hire any more pilots). so in effect 250 UK jobs have been transferred to holland. Now apart from the ex UK guys can you give me an example of a NON Dutch National that has been employed by KLM in the last 5 years? Probably not, there are in fact a very few Belgian nationals who went through KLS but that is about it. So in reality 250 UK pilots have lost their jobs and 250 Dutch nationals have gained by this practice.
KLM is discriminatory through and through, this practice was bought about by the very right wing ex DFO E D H.
The fact is that to join KLM now you must have been trained by KLS NLS or the Dutch military AND speak Dutch to Level B1 standard. These practices are illegal and protectionary.
KLM may be a great employer when on the inside, but their practices are far from fair. They took over Airuk within the D and K accord agreed that effectivly all the Airuk jobs over time would be transferred to Holland (KLCuk could not hire any more pilots). so in effect 250 UK jobs have been transferred to holland. Now apart from the ex UK guys can you give me an example of a NON Dutch National that has been employed by KLM in the last 5 years? Probably not, there are in fact a very few Belgian nationals who went through KLS but that is about it. So in reality 250 UK pilots have lost their jobs and 250 Dutch nationals have gained by this practice.
KLM is discriminatory through and through, this practice was bought about by the very right wing ex DFO E D H.
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Ohhh men, It's turning into another KLM UK debate.
Anyways here is the text from the BOM
Either the English or the Dutch language may be used as the common language for communication on the flight deck and between crewmembers during line operations. When crew composition so dictates the English language shall be used
BOM 8.3.1.1
The case you talk about is of one specific individual, well known in the entire company for being a giant a$$hole, he refused to fly with one ex UK guy that you forget to mention is also known for being extremely lazy. Nevertheless the captain in case got into more trouble that the UK guy and as a result the BOM was CHANGED. You forgot to mention that.
Further more, If you read my posts in the past, you know I didnt agree with the KLM UK situation, but can you give me an example of any former UK guys getting hired with AF, IB, LH or AZ or even BA
I would still like to see any specific reference to the article in the CLA where it states that new hires have to be fluent in, what did you call it, BI european dutch standard.
Anyways here is the text from the BOM
Either the English or the Dutch language may be used as the common language for communication on the flight deck and between crewmembers during line operations. When crew composition so dictates the English language shall be used
BOM 8.3.1.1
The case you talk about is of one specific individual, well known in the entire company for being a giant a$$hole, he refused to fly with one ex UK guy that you forget to mention is also known for being extremely lazy. Nevertheless the captain in case got into more trouble that the UK guy and as a result the BOM was CHANGED. You forgot to mention that.
Further more, If you read my posts in the past, you know I didnt agree with the KLM UK situation, but can you give me an example of any former UK guys getting hired with AF, IB, LH or AZ or even BA
I would still like to see any specific reference to the article in the CLA where it states that new hires have to be fluent in, what did you call it, BI european dutch standard.
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you will not find this reference in the BOM (to outsiders thats the Basic Operation Manual!! not an explosive device ;-)) . Fluency in european langauges are divided into levels I.E B1.B2 etc
See here Common European Framework of Reference for Languages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It was agreed with the VNV in 2006 that the entry requirement to KLM would be fluency in level B1 Dutch.
quote: Further more, If you read my posts in the past, you know I didnt agree with the KLM UK situation, but can you give me an example of any former UK guys getting hired with AF, IB, LH or AZ or even BA
what a rediculous statement! the KLM uk (read AirUK) pilots were EMPLOYED by KLM not AF, IB, LH or AZ . However some have joined BA.
See here Common European Framework of Reference for Languages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It was agreed with the VNV in 2006 that the entry requirement to KLM would be fluency in level B1 Dutch.
quote: Further more, If you read my posts in the past, you know I didnt agree with the KLM UK situation, but can you give me an example of any former UK guys getting hired with AF, IB, LH or AZ or even BA
what a rediculous statement! the KLM uk (read AirUK) pilots were EMPLOYED by KLM not AF, IB, LH or AZ . However some have joined BA.
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I would be very suprised if that that was a deal made with the VNV as they generaly don't get involved with the hiring practices but I will enquire tomorrow.
But please answer my question, did any of your buddies get hired with say LH, IB, AF and if not, what was the major reason?
But please answer my question, did any of your buddies get hired with say LH, IB, AF and if not, what was the major reason?
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It is not a ridiculous statement, it goes to show that all the other MEFC have their peculiars as well when it comes to hiring practices.
AF for example, I have never seen a advertisemt for pilots in the past, just recently they have hired so many people that they have gone outside. It's really rare.
But still they have the requirment for french fluency, why don't you complain about that.
After all, the aviation language is english!!!!
same goes for LH, IB
AF for example, I have never seen a advertisemt for pilots in the past, just recently they have hired so many people that they have gone outside. It's really rare.
But still they have the requirment for french fluency, why don't you complain about that.
After all, the aviation language is english!!!!
same goes for LH, IB
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My Flyberg I was answering your post saying that KLM do not have any discrimination when it comes to recruitment. The fact is they are WORSE that IB AF LH etc because they not only have a language requirement (this you will find me correct on) BUT they also state where you must have obtained your qualifications which MUST be of DUTCH origin!! THAT IS ILLEGAL!!! why do you not see that?? Are you so brainwashed by the wonderful "blue" you cannot see what it does to outsiders?
The reason that no ex uk pilots fly for IB AF etc is that none applied! This does not detract from the fact that KLM is discriminatory and that is illegal and if they had been treated fairly would still be employed by KLM!!
You havent answered my question....how many non dutch nationals have been hired in the past 5 years apart from the ex UK guys of which they took 12 (nearly 700 pilots have been hired in the last 5 years!!)
The reason that no ex uk pilots fly for IB AF etc is that none applied! This does not detract from the fact that KLM is discriminatory and that is illegal and if they had been treated fairly would still be employed by KLM!!
You havent answered my question....how many non dutch nationals have been hired in the past 5 years apart from the ex UK guys of which they took 12
(nearly 700 pilots have been hired in the last 5 years!!)