My experience with Ryanair

[Visual Calls]

How often does it have to be said that the "i'm only here for a few hours" brigade are f**king it up for everyone else? Look at the big picture. Every low-cost hour you gain is undermining the airlines with the better T&C's. It's like musical chairs. Eventually the music will stop when you've managed to undermine everyone else and at that point, if you're still in ryanair, you're goosed and if you've left already to gain a temporary advantage, you're now goosed anyway. And you were never there to begin with, you can look with contempt on the fly-for-cheaper pilots who have ruined your life.

vikingdk Maybe most of your colleagues are happy, but I suspect they all have low experience and haven't worked out yet how they're screwing themselves and everyone else. Once the above scenario happens, they'll know all about it.

You can't get away from the fact that if you accept poor conditions it screws everyone else. The argument that it's only "entry-level" and "all professions start out bad" is a fallacy. Here's why:
A junior doctor, accountant, lawyer etc gets paid less cos they do the monkey work with little responsibility. As they move up the ladder, they can command a premium for their added experience and ability. And if they're particularly able, they can command a bigger premium again.
However, a pilot of a given can not and does not command a premium for being "better" or more experienced than another. If that were the case, passengers would gladly pay more to fly with EI, BA, KLM, Easy or whoever. However, people choose ryanair assuming all pilots are equal. Yes, we all know ryanair pilots are generally much less experienced than anywhere else, but other airlines have to compete with ryanair on price, not on the quality of the cockpit crew.
Experience is an intangible quality that can not be accurately measured. That's why ryanair, who only care to tick the boxes, will always be able to undercut an airline who cares about how able the pilots actually are.

If you don't stand and fight at ryanair, the sh1t will follow you wherever you go and you will not be thanked for it by the rest of us.

[captjns]

I don't know what the fuss is all about. Some of these posts are more winded than the speeches I've heard at speakers corner by the Marble Arch...

Plain and simple... those who are happy stay... and those who are not leave.

I know a number of expats from the western hemisphere over at RYR and love the QOL and the pay that goes with it.

You either accept the company for what it is... and if dissatisfied... move on.

Life's not that complicated.

[captplaystation]

You cannot begin to compare life in RYR at a small base ( well GRO has 9 A/C and more to come, so not so small. . . . if that is where by my Belgian colleague is based) with the same job in STN ( The aviation equivalent of Hell on Earth)
It has to be said, that there are so many ways RYR could be improved, most involving little or no capital expenditure on the company's part, but finally, sleeping in your own bed at night, flying new (all the oldest i.e. 9yr max one's are leaving @10A/C per year) well maintained 737's isn't so bad, particularly if you can be based somewhere with a bit of sunshine.
Whilst some of our S.O.P's are a bit anally retentive, at least you have a fair idea what hymn sheet the other guy is singing from, regardless of his nationality/experience.
If they could only sort out man management, and force themselves to stop behaving towards their staff/customers/et all like so many back street thugs/ horse traders it would be the best job in Europe.
Well we can dream eh ?

[Kempus]

what makes me laugh is that all the guys in the industry who have the experience and the pull to do something in the industry all just sit back and moan that how all the new guys are ruining it for everyone?
get off your backside and help us out!

we are merely trying to make a career after the boom time when the major's sponsored about 10 cadets a month, concorde was flying and petrol was 42p a litre! stand up for your peers, aviation is one big family! its amazing how someone knows someone you know who knos someone who knows them! if you can't stand up for us at least show a little repect for putting everything on the line to try and make it!

I pay my union fees to funnily enough help you guys as airlines struggle to make a profit!
its not 1985 and the world has changed dramatically! things will NEVER be the same again!
its all about survival of the fitest and well ryanair is one of thee fitest!

If you don't agree well that's your opinion which your entitled too but for god's sake stop blaming the new guys and help out!

As I said enjoy my union money, I pay it for the better of the industry not just myself, so those in the know give a hand!

kempus

ps. can someone explain how a easy, klm, ba, ei, luft newbie out of flight school is any better to that of a ryr pilot of the same experience?

oh and the flying is good. people are great but I just don't T§C's to get out of control!

rant over i'll prepare for the onslaught!

[CIPO]

For fooks sake, wake up & smell the coffee! The only peeps happy in FR are low time 2 stripers(& not all of them are). Start listening to those who know. When was the last time you saw anyone in the right seat with 3 stripes?? Get your 3 stripes & you'll start throwing the toys out of the pram. Your surplus to requirements until you get 4 stripes. Of course that can come up quicker than you think if you use your 500, 1000hrs or whatever buzzing around in a C152

As i said before FLIGHT SCHOOL!

[YYZ]

CIPO

CMD is 3000 JAR25, not C152.

YYZ

[Rhodes13]

CIPO and the like. I find it ironic that you and your type bleat about how bad it is at RYR and you want to yell it to all around you but the moment someone disagrees with you you immediately call them a low timer wannabe or something else and say that their opinion doesn't count because they don't have thousands of hours watching a tv screen.

Why can't you just accept that like you there are people that don't like RYR and then there are people that actually do like it! Ask yourself if it was truly a slave labour camp like you say wouldn't our turnover of pilots be a lot lot higher than it is?

You have to wonder at the intelligence level and the manners of some people in here. Just because someone has two posts to his name his opinion isn't valued because he possibly has a life and doesn't sit here on this stupid forum and listen to the sad sad people that continually bitch. Or to those people who are the grammar police mocking people because their english isn't at A level grade. FFS last time I checked the ability to express an opinion didn't include the ability to speak english at university level.

Before anyone has a go at me yes I fly for RYR and do I like my lot.Like Ive always said it can and should be improved but is it as bad as people say? Hell no. And before anyone asks Ive seen my share of bosses.

Some of you should stop living in the past where as pilots we could dictate terms. People here bitch about RYR when they don't see the bigger picture. As a whole profession we are suffering from greedy employers. Take a look at any of the forums and you'll see people complaining about CX, QF, AA, EK , BA and the list goes on and on. But hang on RYR is destroying it for all of us. Lets blame RYR for everything!

People try and move on. If you dont like it LEAVE. I cant say that enough. if you like it stay. Life is to short to be miserable. Or perhaps its a case of the grass is always greener.

I flew with a Captain the other day that came out with a classic. What do you call a group of pilots?

A whinge!

[the grim repa]

Whilst i am reticent to post here and do not want to get involved again with more management plants.I HAVE BEEN RYANAIR OVER 10 YEARS!!!why do i stay,perhaps foolishness or hopefulness.either ways it is quite possible that a minority find it a nice place to work and that may well be tempered by the relativity of what you have experienced before in other companies e.t.c e.t.c.it is a fact however and a management tactic that within ryanair many have NO relative experience in another airline and therefore cannot judge the good/bad of their current position.
in my experience,year on year ryanair has stripped pilots terms and conditions,they have driven the majority of those who would choose a career in ryanair out the door and have dragged numerous pilots who tried to stem the tide of open oppression pervasive to this day within the company through the courts in an attempt to ruin their lives and careers.far too many shocking examples of day to day treatment of pilots and their families to anotate her.
suffice to say that you can believe 1 year experience or my 10 year experience,either way i do not give a damn.
i will tell you this however,anyone thinking of long term career in ryanair.forget about it.they will pay you the minimum and hope you will leave after a few years.that is the system.no pension etc.this is at a time of relative security in the aviation recruitment market.those who are stuck in ryanair when there is no other place to go to,you are in deep ****!!!
for those who are 1 year in and are happy with the wifes grub and spain,enjoy it while it lasts,i did initially.then i had my eyes wide opened!!!


YOU HAVE NO FUTURE IN RYANAIR!!!!

[Lazy skip]

YYZ,

Command in FR is with 3000 total,
Actually you will be assesed for command with 2900 pending,
- 1 winter season on the 800,(oct/mar)
- 2 good or better lpc,
- 1500 jar 25,
- 500 on the 800
So let`s say that I join today with 1500hr on the C152,I would expect to be considered for command by Sep.09 (best or worst case scenario )

[YYZ]

Not aware of that, was told different...

I am always happy to stand corrected..

YYZ

[CIPO]

Its actually the likes of the Grim Repa & myself with a bit of cop on, personal experience & intelligence who see the big picture & what is happening at Ruinair has far wider implications than within FR. Anyway all the contract pilots don't give a toss as long as they get their £80/£150hr, MOL knows this hence the number of them in the company.......
Aer Lingus are trying it on in Belfast & even WW at BA.

[MrHorgy]

Playing devils advocate here:

Just out of interest, why do people think their company should pay for them to have the priviledge to park their car at the airport? I've worked in an office, and they never paid me to park in Central London - they'd go bankrupt pretty quickly. They also didn't pay for my shirt and tie I wore to the office, even though they had a defined uniform policy. So why is it so AWFUL Ryanair do it?

Also, speaking from my experience, a smaller base is always better than a larger one, it's more like a team/family. I enjoyed my time working at Leeds Bradford far better than at Manchester.

Horgy

[Stan Woolley]

Actually what has happened is that the likes of Grim Repa don't know how much other companies have changed for the worse in the last ten years.

At least in lifestyle Ryanair has been a driver in the improvement to rosters in other low cost carriers. I think 5 on 4 off is one of the best deal around in that regard.

I'm not a newbie, maybe I've been fortunate but I do have experience of a number of airlines including Britannia for example.Been here 3 years and at the moment have no plans to leave.I also know that could change in a moment - that's just a fact.

It's simple hypocrisy to hate Ryanair that much but stay ten years - pathetic really - it really doesn't say a lot for your self confidence, does it?

I hated my previous companies attitude to rostering and it wore me down - getting out was the best thing ever - try it!

[easymoney]

Some good posts above.

As usual it always comes down to, if you are in favour or against the original poster.

And of course both sides usually can back up their argument with facts or perceived facts which may be relative to past experience of lack of past experience.

The bottom line is FR have 1700 pilots working for them. I can assure you that quite a lot of these guys a very happy working for FR. Now whether their happiness is based on how FR treat them or not (most probably the case), but most don't really care how FR treat them as they are mainly only concerned with the short term dollar symbol.

As for the experience level in FR........probably one of the companies with the most experience levels in Europe, that's of course if you can look outside of the box. Loads of our Captains have shed loads of experience working for some of the so called flag carriers all over Europe.

If you are happy now with FR....enjoy it. As for "if you don't like it you can always leave"syndrome, well it's been said many times before on here, what's happening at FR, and it's happening, will follow to the rest of the industry. Take OUR Lingus for example, what's the future for a career pilot there. A company that's a third owned (at the mo) by FR, 20 odd percent by a government that wants rid of the shares, but can't, and a minority by employees and pension fund (at a loss).

No one is safe.

For those who seem to be FR realists, well they know the truth, for those that are not, well they have yet the learn it.

FR could be compared to a cancer. Deadly, but with the ability to destroy all including itself. So, anyone know what the possible cure is.

[M80]

MrHorgy:

You get to chose your 'uniform' in an office environment within a certain bracket of clothing. Not everyone is in identical suits. If an airline wishes it's pilots to wear the same gash quality suits, it's a uniform in the more traditional sense, and should be supplied - if only to facilitate conformity from one supplier. If you're given leeway to turn up for work smartly dressed, I'd be down to the tailors and happy to fund that little trip myself...

[Stan Woolley]

If you are happy now with FR....enjoy it. As for "if you don't like it you can always leave"syndrome, well it's been said many times before on here, what's happening at FR, and it's happening, will follow to the rest of the industry.

Well if enough people who are hacked off get off their ass and leave maybe Ryanair would have to change their attitude?

Only not enough are leaving. Why not? Maybe its because on balance they are content to stay? (Mmm.....Options in the UK??????)

A few years ago hundreds of pilots left Easy over a relatively short span of time which is the real reason they looked with some seriousness at the rostering issues. Whinging about it from within had NO effect.

Ryanair are practical. They make no pretence at being 'nice'. In my experience that's how nearly all companies are despite the pretence of being 'caring'.What they offer is good rostering and quick progression(or immediate in the case of Captains) to good money.These two things are in fact what many experienced pilots care about the most.

Find me an example from any company where the senior guys lost major benefits by supporting junior colleagues and I'll show you the average pilot mentality. Sad but true.

Cynic or Realist? Probably both.

[easymoney]

Did the change in Easy not come because of Union Representation. Am I wrong in thinking this.

Of course you can leave to try and change a companies mentality. But that change may or may not be relevant to you once you leave. The relevance is it may follow you, and you did nothing about it while you had a chance.

For anyone to think they mean anything to FR, and that by leaving, it will affect the way management think needs to have their head examined. FR rely on people leaving....as said before we are one of the biggest employers of new recruits. People have left in their droves. And to what effect. If you leave, it's for your own personal reasons, not to try and change things here (remember the FR effect is not too far behind). The only way change can come is from within.......this, I know FR are scared of. This is the reason they have battled long and hard in the courts.

In this company you are alone, you have zero protection. For all the happy go lucky ones, it's not about money, the money you get is less than you deserve, but the main thing lacking in this company is your respect as an employee.


Don't get me wrong, I am not FR bashing, I live in hope that FR could be a company to be proud to work for.

[Wee Willy McGorbals]

To qoute MOL in the local rag "a recession would be great for the aviation industry", how much respect do you think you would get then?

Anyone seen 10 tonnes of traffic load lately?

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Some good arguments here. On balance it applears that a significant number of Ryanair pilots who choose to stay are happy with their lot - or at least happy with the status quo. Here at easyJet we have recently been the recipient of a number of less happy individuals from Ryanair who are delighted to be here instead. It is undoubtedly true that the travel between Ryanair and easyJet over the years has been a 2-way street - right now it is pretty one-way from Ryanair to the Orange Order. As the offended of Ryanair will rightly point out, in the past the travel was very definitely in the other direction - such is the game of 'Snakes and Ladders' called the airline industry.

There is undoubtedly a profoundly anti-Ryanair sentiment that exists in many airlines. Indeed it is very common for me to hear other pilots I fly with, in moments of quiet reflection, to remark on their own staggering good fortune not to work there. Whatever the truth, there is something about Ryanair that sets off uncontrolled and irrational ranting among otherwise reasonable people. The sad thing for me is that the clear answer to all these difficulties is unionisation - BALPA-represented companies overall enjoy better conditions. Our recent batch of new arrivals, from a wide variety of backgrounds have all come in search of the promised land that flows with milk and honey - and indeed it does relative to the various companies they left behind! The problem is that everyone wants something for nothing - easyJet became the place it is right now by high BALPA membership and some hard-edged negotiations on our behalf. We were not magically met by some kind-hearted management guru who just wanted us all to feel good about ourselves. With the lowering of relative membership, we at easyJet are facing a much more Ryanair-esque approach to negotiations by emboldened managers who, with some justification, believe that the pilots are now a soft touch. It is to be hoped that the freeloaders will come to their senses and join BALPA before we face the same snags Ryanair pilots are facing now. I wish all my colleagues at Ryanair the very best, but I sure do not envy the complete lack of respect that you are subjected to within your own company.

[Wingswinger]

Anyone seen 10 tonnes of traffic load lately?

Yep. Every sector I fly for EZY from LGW is >10 tonnes payload.

There is undoubtedly a profoundly anti-Ryanair sentiment that exists in many airlines.

There is also a growing anti-FR sentiment amongst the public in the UK. More and more people realise that EZY is actually a bit upmarket from FR and that is why they choose us.

We were not magically met by some kind-hearted management guru who just wanted us all to feel good about ourselves. With the lowering of relative membership, we at easyJet are facing a much more Ryanair-esque approach to negotiations by emboldened managers who, with some justification, believe that the pilots are now a soft touch. It is to be hoped that the freeloaders will come to their senses and join BALPA before we face the same snags Ryanair pilots are facing now.

Spot on, NSF. We need to bang some sense into the heads of the free-loaders, not wait for them to come to it. And the IPA.

EZY stands on the cusp of enormous success for customers, staff and shareholders alike. It can be the Southwest of Europe. We can not let it be wrecked by the greed of a few here-today-gone-tomorrow suits in open-necked shirts and cabin crew uniforms.