No seniority list..how does it work?

[Kilo-club SNA]

I Agree with you PP,
the issue isn't with seniority but In my opinion it is closely linked. Seniority is involved in many issues but I think it's fair to say that very few people jump of a seniority list because they can't get the leave they wish (for being to junior) but there are plenty of examples where junior F/Os have left an airline to get a command elsewhere.

In reality a command selection board will not look at all applicants as they have plenty of suitable applicants within the most senior pilots.
The key word here is suitable which relates to the previous issue of "pass" level.

Let me illustrate my thoughts with a example:
An airline have a need to train captains and they have a long line of applicants that fullfill the requirments. further down the list is another applicant that is comes highly recommended by the trainers. Maybe he possess skills and willingness to after achieving command move on to line training or has previous experience of such work. With most seniority systems you couldn't promote this individual.
One might say that there will be other with those skills but I think you agree that as you look at higher positions in a company the individual makes more of a difference (not everybody is cut out to be head of training etc). It is hypothetical, I know but I just want to point towards what I see as a bit of a backside of the system

In order to advance in a company a commands may be needed and it is a bit of a bottle-neck with seniority system.

Here we go again....

[MONSIEUR]

ok fair point but....what other options are there? anything other than seniority would just lead to who knows the chief pilot better or whoever is in the command selection board etc..
Like i said before it's not a perfect system, but it seems to be what works best, and when you join a company at the bottom of the list you know exactly what to expect..

[Kilo-club SNA]

No not a perfect system, but generally works well.
My main objection is that it's easy to get in the thinking that it's "your" slot and being upset when a more junior pilot gets promoted, something I don't think was the original idea!
If someone is really good they should be able to accelerate their career (in my opinion) without getting viewed as a brown noser by other pilots.
Please note that in the scenario I gave it wasn't the company management who said "let's take this guy!"

[Pilot Pete]

think it's fair to say that very few people jump of a seniority list because they can't get the leave they wish (for being to junior)

Depends on how refined your seniority list is and how it is used. In my airline leave is distributed on a points basis, so if you are junior you get a fair shot at a choice of leave dates.

there are plenty of examples where junior F/Os have left an airline to get a command elsewhere.

Well, if the time to command is long, it tends to mean the airline is big and not expanding. People don't wait for 10 years to get a command in an airline with bad terms and conditions........

You will always get guys who leave for an early command if they perceive the grass to be greener. Equally you could probably argue that those continually passed over in a system without a seniority list will probably look to leave to get a command. So the difference is?

in reality a command selection board will not look at all applicants as they have plenty of suitable applicants within the most senior pilots.

Not sure I understand where you are coming from there. With a seniority system they will look at you in seniority order, which is fair and transparent. If someone doesn't meet the required standard they look at the next one down and so on. If you 'apply' for a command in 1 year with the likes of BA you won't be senior enough to get looked at even if you are good enough. What's unfair about that when there are several hundred (if not thousand!) equally suitable but more senior applicants to you? What if you had 'done your time' and some young buck applied and was given a shot ahead of you? You'd be upset that it was unfair then!

If you don't like the seniority system, leave and join an airline without one and 'hope' your talents are rewarded with an early command, but if they aren't don't bitch about being passed over!!!!!

Maybe he possess skills and willingness to after achieving command move on to line training or has previous experience of such work. With most seniority systems you couldn't promote this individual.

Agreed. What is to say that the hundreds in front of this individual don't have the talents to become trainers when promoted? That is the reality in a career airline with a big seniority list. Like I said before, when you join the process is transparent. If you don't like it go to an airline without a list. I could use BA as an example where training positions aren't handed out based on seniority, but on talent. They have F/Os who are trainers. My airline don't have F/Os as TRE/TRI or Line Trainers, but they do have GTPs who are F/Os. All training positions are filled through application and suitability, not based on seniority.

In order to advance in a company a commands may be needed and it is a bit of a bottle-neck with seniority system.

Depends what you mean by 'advance', some may see base and type as more important than command. That is certainly true in my airline where many, many F/Os with the seniority refused the command opportunity on a 737 because they didn't want the lifestyle change moving off the 'beach fleet'. Their choice. The seniority system protects them and (taking a gamble on future fleet structure) they are happy to wait for their seniority position to be considered for the 'big jet' command.

So no system is perfect and certainly a seniority system should not be used for everything within an airline such as rostering, leave, longhaul trips etc etc so that the most junior person isn't shafted on all fronts, but as far as commands go, it is a fair way of ordering for command selection suitability.

My main objection is that it's easy to get in the thinking that it's "your" slot and being upset when a more junior pilot gets promoted, something I don't think was the original idea!

It's never 'your slot' for a command, it is 'your slot' to be looked at for suitability, so if you view it that way then you are deluding yourself and probably demonstrating a lack of command suitability! If you keep getting crap results in the sim and your slot is approaching then you are again deluding yourself and will not get past the selection stage. If you think that all you need to do is just wait for the command to turn up then you are again wrong and are obviously unsuitable! I don't see the argument I am afraid. I don't know of any seniority based airline who say "just wait for your number to come up and you will have a command".

If someone is really good they should be able to accelerate their career (in my opinion) without getting viewed as a brown noser by other pilots.

They can, they can go to an airline without seniority and take their chances. If they don't like the system then they shouldn't accept the job offer. It's not rocket science!

Your example is truly hypothetical and I think you will find there are many, many pilots in seniority based airlines who meet the criteria you describe, so it is not an issue. However, many talented individuals go into management roles where they are purely selected on suitability, not seniority. I was interviewed for my current employer 5 years ago by an F/O, who was a Base Pilot Manager. He did 14 years as an F/O due to seniority, but became a captain whilst studying for his Masters' Degree in Air Transport Management (think) and became Chief Pilot about a year later, then Head of Training before moving on to a certain big Orange carrier.............

No system is perfect, but I haven't heard any alternatives on here that sound better and protect 'the majority' of pilots within an airline.

PP

[alphabreak]

I have worked for two outfts that had meritocracy systems for command promotions. The concept sold to me at the initial interview was that it was the best way to ensure the most suitable candidate was in charge of the jet.

After seeing numerous chaps, with only 6 months out of the services, get to the left hand seat in a large aircraft (despite no real airways, IFR, commercial etc experience) and watching them make a hash up of it, l decided to look the word up in the dictionary.

It said meritocratic = chief pilots ex squadron buddies.

Both these companies also failed. Stick clear of them if at all possible!

[calypso]

Pilot Pete, I used to work for the same outfit as you and I had to sit patiently waiting for the command board to meet. I fulfilled all the requirements but one month someone was away, next month they discussed changing the upgrade process, the following month we where short of trainers... in the mean time direct entry captains poured into the left seat on the basis of a 30 minute sim ride. The months passed and suddenly retirement age was put up to 65, a couple of 767 where sold, whoops I missed the boat. Command was suddenly many years away. I have to say it was a very special interpretation on seniority that just did not work for me.

[MONSIEUR]

Calypso
I take it from your post that your present employer does not use a seniority list.. If that's the case, is it better and is it as straight forward now to get leave/gdos/trips as it was in your last company? and can you genuinely know when you 'll get your command (in relation to your colleagues) ?

I do agree that the recruitment of direct entry captains undermines the whole system as far as promotions are concerned and should have been avoided at all cost..

[calypso]

In my present company I sleep home every night so I don't bid for trips, I did get all the holiday I bid for (25 days in the summer, Xmas off and Easter off) but that might have been either luck or the fact that the average age is lower here. There are lots of people that don't have kids so don't bid for the school holidays. The command upgrade is quite a convoluted process but is supported by strong growth. There are are plenty of slots and as a result most people get to have a go sooner rather than later. The system is not fully transparent but any irregularities only make a difference of months rather than many years as before.

[Pilot Pete]

The months passed and suddenly retirement age was put up to 65, a couple of 767 where sold, whoops I missed the boat.

Not on the 737. If you had bid for it when the opportunity arose then you would have been looked at before anyone less senior/ direct entry. Many didn't due to lifestyle choices (not wanting to lose their 767 longhaul) and that was their choice. You can't have it both ways......the company needed 737 captains and not enough guys were bidding internally, hence they took some direct entry, then the union bleated (and rightly so) and those who had been passed over previously were given another shot. I admit that everything wasn't as clear and above board as perhaps we would have all liked it to be, but the commands had been there for some time..........Plus of course, businesses change. You can't complain about the retirement age going up ot aircraft being sold, that's just tough titty! Just like when a couple of aircraft join a fleet and a few commands come up; it's just right place, right time stuff. I am always of the opinion that if there is an opportunity available then you need to SERIOUSLY consider it there and then as it may all change tomorrow.....................

The command upgrade is quite a convoluted process but is supported by strong growth.

The system is not fully transparent but any irregularities only make a difference of months rather than many years as before.

Smacks of 'I'm alright jack' from where I am sitting. What happens when the growth stops? Then you have a system which becomes less fair and others will be coming up with the same arguments as you have just put about your previous employer.

I do agree that the recruitment of direct entry captains undermines the whole system as far as promotions are concerned and should have been avoided at all cost..

But airlines aren't going to leave aircraft on the ground because not enough applicants want to fill the left seats on a 'less desirable' type, as happened at my (and Calypso's previous) employer.

You need to be fair in any judgement like this. The company has a business to run and pilot's need to accept this in such situations. Seniority is usually fought for by unions to benefit the greater good of all members. It is not perfect and there will be anomalies along the way, usually the union will only fight a case if it benefits the general membership, like it or not. They have to have a mandate from the members, as without they are toothless.

PP

[calypso]

You are not quite correct in this case PP. While it is true that many people did not apply for their 737 upgrade it is fact that there where quite a few upgradable FO's (from someone on the command selection board, not me) that had bid for a 737 command while DEC's where joining the company. I know this very much first hand beleive me. The company line was that we where short of trainers, etc and Balpa's line was? What if some other bods further down the list have to wait five, six , seven years more for their command for the sake of a few DEC?

Despite the tone of this post I bear no grudges. I enjoyed my time there and have no regrets. The only reason I am contributing is to put a little perspective and to show that seniority systems are also manipulated and people are disadvantaged.


Smacks of 'I'm alright jack' from where I am sitting.

Funny you should said that. It is exactly what I thought about Balpa's stance regarding DEC back then.