BALPA union or pilot club?

[sidtheesexist]

Mr Solo:

(1) Re BALPA associate membership - you make some valid points. Where I think your analogy with engineers and comparison with PPLs/cadets etc falls down somewhat is this - flying instructors are commercial pilots in their own right. Though they don't fly airliners they fly for a living - my understanding was that BALPA was here to represent professional pilots' interests - not just Airline pilots. If you want to return to a pointless argument based on semantics then, ok, I'll fly a white flag!

(2) Rather condescending of you to suggest that my knowledge of the JS case is that limited? I followed the thread on the BA company forum with some interest and seem to recall that there were some (apparently - maybe you know different?) very knowledgeable and detailed postings by those supporting the case. There were plenty of 'big brains' on there......At the beginning of it all, and after the 'successful' conclusion I was not convinced of the justness of the case - that is still my opinion. Employment law and the system by which that law is implemented found in favour of JS/BALPA - doesn't make it right or just does it?

(3) At no point have I advocated a condemnation of any airline. A very public condemnation of the whole SSTR practice - well that's another matter!!!

In summary I would conclude with the following. I fully accept that BALPA does many good things and I pay my subs in good faith. That doesn't mean that there arn't many areas which couldn't be improved/addressed. I still find the general tone of your posts very dismissive - if you are a 4 striper I dread to think what the authority gradient is like on 'YOUR' flightdeck.

[neil armstrong]

If you want protection ,become a IPA/IPF member for Aviation advice and a T&G member for legal help ,everybody i know who called on the T&G for legal help was happy with there service.
If your new to aviation become a IPA/IPF member because there job hunting service is very good.

Neil

[Hand Solo]

Sid:
1) Where should BALPA draw the line for membership? Should flying instructors be allowed membership? Should solo CPLs flying Warriors on aerial photography trips be included? Should any CPL holder not actively engaged in commercial flying be included? The line has to be drawn somewhere, and in my opinion it should be limited to those with an ATPL engaged in airline flying. To do otherwise spreads resources too thinly and expands BALPAs reach into areas that they cannot effectively influence.

2) Sorry but I'm sticking to my guns on this one. Reading the threads on the BA forum gives little more than a general overview and a lot of reactionary comments from the grumpy old men. If you have the opportunity to speak personally to those involved and get the unabridged version you'll find it something of an eye opener. The BACC can rarely give the complete the full details on a public forum and this case was no different.

As a wise lawyer once told me, you go to the courts for law, not justice. Accordingly the BALPA legal team are in the business of law, not justice. If you want a union that seeks justice then it's a noble aim but it'll end up broke in no time at all. Whether you consider the JS case 'just' or not, the fact remains that BA were outside the law, a member asked for assistance, the legal team agreed it was a winnable case and the case was won. Justice suggests a moral judgement. Should we be introducing moral judgements to our legal representation? If so, whose morals should they be? If a pilot fails a blood alcohol should BALPA defend them, or is justice served by leaving them to rot in a foreign prison? Tricky thing this justice don't you think?

3) A broadbrush public condemnation is a bold move and a lot of people would need convincing of it's merits. What purpose would it serve? Would airlines be shamed into changing? I doubt it. Would the public move their business to another airline? Unlikely. Would BALPA be left ranting and railing in a futile manner like a badly behaved child in a supermarket? Very probably.

[Angryfool]

Hand Solo

. Politically correct? Perhaps in your opinion, but this case was just the first that came to bat in an employers refusal to offer adequate right-to-request part time working to an employee. It had significant positive benefits for any pilot in that company, both male and female

Could you please enlighten me, how/where have we seen

significant positive benefits for any pilot in that company, both male and female

?

If you do not have the right to request, has that improved one's ability to get part-time? (not including the new work coverage agreement)

That'll be BALPA the British Airline Pilots Association, not the British Flying Instructors Association? Flying a C152 around with a student is not airline flying and is beyond BALPAs remit

So are you by implication saying BALPA is an elitist organisation? Only feed thy king for others are not deemed worthy. A very sad view in my opinion. Balpa's strength is in it's number's across the entire 'board' and it matters not if it's an airline pilot or instructor pilot.

And in answer to the question, it thinks of itself as a union but really it's a flying club

[Wingswinger]

I am a member and I have been a representative. I may again be a representative or be involved in some other voluntary capacity. I consider my 1% (less the tax allowance - thank you, Jim) to be money well placed. If you do not, don't be a member. Simple really.

[Noiffsorbuts]

Interesting discusssion..with no surprises at the fawning (and may I say thoroughly arrogant)apologists for Balpa.
Balpa should be a trade union first and foremost and not a club. The first duty of any union should be to protect the individual. In that duty Balpa is wanting to my own knowledge and from the examples presented here.To cut the ground of support from someone who has lost his or her job is just appalling.....especially when it is an economic decision and scarce resources have been spent freely on dubious Politically correct escapades. (I have yet to speak to a single colleague who did not think that the Starmer case was a spectacular own goal.and indicative of a leadership that was out of touch with it core membership)

Given that I suspect the majority join out of fear in order to protect themselves with legal cover, it is pretty apparent that at the very least there is a large question mark of the associations ability to perform.
Your own household insurance policy invariably gives the option of excellent legal cover in the event of employment issues and so I commend to anyone who doesnt like what Balpa's spokesman has to say here to give yourself a 1% pay rise and make a phone call to your domestic insurers.

[gatbusdriver]

To all those that say give yourself a 1% pay rise (really it would be less than that, as has been said before there is tax relief) and go else where. Where do you think your salary would be now if it weren't for BALPA. Secondly if your company membership reduces to 20%, what do you think your next pay rise wil be?

Without BALPA I believe we would have a systematic erosion of terms and conditions (as my company is already trying to do).

Contract pilots from abroad would be flying our aircraft.

Pay rises of the type I have witnessed over the past 5 years will be a thing of the past.

BALPA does have some failings, but please don't cut off your nose to spite your face

[Noiffsorbuts]

Where would we be without Balpa?? yeah, yeah, yeah.heard it all before etc.

Indeed who knows. Probably not half as badly off as you think as the strength of (collective) representation as evidenced by the quality of elected representatives seems to be a greater determining factor than membership of Balpa per se....also the quality of your Principal Negotiator.......most of whom are just average overrworked guys.

The fact is that support of the individual aint there when it is needed unless the great and good think its an appropriate investment of yours and my subscriptions.

At the moment Balpa sits pretty and the bottom line is that it does not deserve it. It needs some brave souls to think outside the box to find an affordable collective alternative.

From an individuals point of view.....make your own arrangements for legal cover or you may well live to regret it......as several to my certain knowledge have.

[Rotors]

BALPA v BA Helicopters

BALPA did not cover themselves in glory with the selling of BAH to Robt Maxwell but it was a long time ago now.

Edit at 1850 - looking back, I see that BALPA under Mark Young recommended the Mirror Group Pension scheme to the 150 ish members of BAH. We know what happened after that.

[overstress]

BALPA is neither a union nor a flying club, it is an association. I am a member and I consider my 1% well spent. I was pro-BALPA in the Starmer case; as an employee I didn't like the idea that my employer could operate outside the law. Some people don't seem to make the intellectual leap required to see the implications of the ruling for our employment conditions (right to request part-time= more pilot jobs including those for women... )
Hand Solo's posts come over as rational, knowledgeable and well-constructed to me, (we must talk to the same BALPA reps) but then I am employed by the same company as he is - cast me out to the devil now.

[stormin norman]

Would a learned BALA rep either confirm or refute that BALPA intends to pay out of BALPA funds held the pension shortfall of BALPA employees (£2 million +)?

[BusBoy]

IcePack

Yep, rang the 24h Emergency Helpline. Could not get the guy I apparently needed to speak to, gave general advice and would be called back as soon as he was off phone.......
They had my home, mobile, email so no excuse on that front either..

I'm not bitter, just my experince promoted me to leave and will NEVER rejoin as I did not getthe service that I parid for and cannot rely on them being there when I need them most

[Sheikh Zabik]

Before playing the " I have a superior intellect" card and purring at his self satisfied mate HS someone ought to get their facts straight before making such a total pr&t of himself.

Balpa is a registered trade union mate.........!!!!

[Dick Deadeye]

I think I am pretty well qualified to comment on this having spent several years on a CC.

Really! And BALPA still didn't support you?

I have also recently been forced to resign from my job

Why did you resign? Why didn't you stay and make them dismiss you? It's generally much easier to fight a case of dismissal rather than constructive dismissal.

We were absolutely disgusted when one of thefirst major actions taken under the new stewardship was a high profile and expensive campaign to raise the threshold of pension pots to closer to two million than one million.

Why? Sounds like sour grapes that you're not in that bracket. This issue deeply affected hundreds of BALPA members, and was a legitimate area for BALPA.

This caused enormous offence to many of us

Tough. Grow a thicker skin. It was extremely important to hundreds of BALPA members, mainly the ones paying the highest union subscriptions.

There was then of course the Harmer case!!

You can't even get her name right, but we should still accept that you know enough about her case to comment? Yeah, right!

except to wonder at why such resources and prioritisation were afforded (clearly at the expense of less glamorous grass roots needs)?

Needs such as your case?

High profile, attention grabbing, politically correct.......yes. But why was such attention given to a single member

I don't know. Perhaps it was because she was a BALPA member in good standing, with a worthwhile and winnable case that would set a useful precedent? Ask the BALPA legal committee if you're still wondering.

when this case has single handedly done more to destroy the careers of would be women pilots than anything else recently? Mad!

Your bitterness really shows through. Right or wrong, you need to get over it and move on with your life.

What did the General Secretary say when you made a formal complaint after your victory? You did make a formal complaint didn't you - you know, to help straighten the system out for the next guy or gal in your position?

I'm really glad you won your case, but still convinced that the BALPA review process is a necessary procedure! Can't judge whether it failed you in this instance because of the distinct lack of facts you provide!

[Ghengis Cant]

Why is that you Balpa apologists are so smug patronising and self satisfied ???

You just cant stand someone moving your leather armchair in the club lounge!!! (if you get my drift)

[Hand Solo]

Well I'd hoped to bow out of this thread but the usual tosh has resurfaced and I feel compelled to challenge it, so here goes.

Angryfool - The improvement in RTR rights benefits all BA pilots. You may not have RTR now, but it only takes a single unplanned life event to change that. Some of my friends (all male) are incredibly grateful for that RTR option now. If you know exactly the way your life and the lives of those important to you are going to go in the near future then I accept that better access to RTR working is of no benefit to you.

So are you by implication saying BALPA is an elitist organisation?

No, I'm saying that in the real world any representative organisation has to assess it's scope and where it should focus it's efforts. BALPA is the British Airline Pilots Association. There is no element of superiority or elitism in that title, it's simply a statement of fact. The association represents airline pilots. It does not represent flying instructors, just like the BMA doesn't represent nurses and the Law Society doesn't represent para-legals. It would be a lovely world if every professional body could represent everyone associated with their industry in even the most tangential way, but thats not the world we live in. A line has to be drawn somewhere and I note that you avoid the question of where that line should be drawn.

Originally Posted by Noiffsorbuts

The first duty of any union should be to protect the individual.........To cut the ground of support from someone who has lost his or her job is just appalling.....especially when it is an economic decision and scarce resources have been spent freely on dubious Politically correct escapades. (I have yet to speak to a single colleague who did not think that the Starmer case was a spectacular own goal.and indicative of a leadership that was out of touch with it core membership)

I'm still waiting to hear from Tinytim whether he won his case or settled outside court/tribunal. With regards to the Starmer case I will repeat my point previously stated. Have you personally spoken to anyone directly involved in the case or are you simply passing judgement on a case that you deem to be 'politically correct' but don't actually have any knowledge of? Do you think it is wise to make public pronouncements about subjects which you have no knowledge of?

BusBoy - it's very disapointing that BALPA let you down. When I called them they couldn't get hold of who I apparently needed to speak to, but they were on the phone to me almost constantly for hours, updating me on who I should speak to, what I should and shouldn't say, what I should do and how events were likely to play out. Had I been a non-member I'd have given ten years back-subs to have that support at the end of the phone line in the wee small hours of the morning.

Sheikh Zabik - thanks for pointing out that BALPA is a reigstered trade union. Guess we must have all missed that point, good job you are here.

Originally Posted by Ghengis Cant

Why is that you Balpa apologists are so smug patronising and self satisfied ???

Why is it that the BALPA dismissers always resort to personal insults but never address the questions addressed to them? I'm still waiting to hear what Chris Darke did for the community but Ghenghis seems to be struggling to provide examples.

[gatbusdriver]

Give up HS

Not worth the effort

[gatbusdriver]

noiffsorbuts:

Where would we be without Balpa?? yeah, yeah, yeah.heard it all before etc.

I wouldn't have a command now

My pay would be approx 4-5% less

I wouldn't have block window protection......just to mention a few benefits.

[bushbolox]

Im a memeber of both because im too lazy to cancel either dd.
The reason we need Balpa and The IPA is demonstrated by the internal bickering on this site every day on every topic.

Thank god we're not revolutionaries or wed have been divided and ruled and squashed years ago. Or may be we already have.

[Hirsutesme]

Try reading threads of companies who dont have BALPA recognition. Look at the terms and conditions in Ryanair or jet2. Given the small membership(in relative terms) and the small number of staff, BALPA punches well above it's weight.