Flybe - What are they like to work for?
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100 Above
Well I'm jolly glad a top chap like yourself is still prepared to admit he's my friend.
Who cares what colours they paint her in- a Barbie command in Scotland is something to cherish.
Glad to hear things are on the up.
(couldn't resist a dig at Flybe tho, it's a weakness of mine.
).
Well I'm jolly glad a top chap like yourself is still prepared to admit he's my friend.
Who cares what colours they paint her in- a Barbie command in Scotland is something to cherish.
Glad to hear things are on the up.
(couldn't resist a dig at Flybe tho, it's a weakness of mine.
).
Last edited by brain fade; 6th Oct 2007 at 21:24.
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Accept most of the points you make excrab, the problem comes with the ryanair claims bit.
I've met a lot of Ryanair pilots and I can tell you categorically that in a large majority of cases the substance does not match the spin. There are indeed a few guys who are happy with the salary and the aircraft, but the majority are not, you only have to look at the numbers who are leaving to see that.
I've met a lot of Ryanair pilots and I can tell you categorically that in a large majority of cases the substance does not match the spin. There are indeed a few guys who are happy with the salary and the aircraft, but the majority are not, you only have to look at the numbers who are leaving to see that.
Hirsutesme,
Fair enough - I can only go by those I have spoken to (three captains and one F/O), all of whom were ex flybe. Possibly it might depend on the background of those who are leaving - were they new guys who got stitched up for training or had they flown for major airlines prior to Ryan air. The grass is always greener and I'm sure there are places a lot worse even than there. Well, almost sure anyway.
As for "There are indeed a few guys who are happy with the salary and the aircraft, but the majority are not, you only have to look at the numbers who are leaving to see that." I would suggest that could also apply to flybe as it was. Prior to the Bacon merger Flybe had huge regular resignations each winter (someone told me about 60 pilots resigned last winter, 13 Q400 captains in December alone) and the bottom third of the seniority list mostly left before they even unfroze their ATPLs, primarily due to poor pay compared with elsewhere plus deliberate policy of sending people from the South to EDI/GLA/BHD and then recruiting for SOU/EXT/BHX without letting people alread in the seniority system bid for a transfer.
It will be interesting to see what this winter brings.
Fair enough - I can only go by those I have spoken to (three captains and one F/O), all of whom were ex flybe. Possibly it might depend on the background of those who are leaving - were they new guys who got stitched up for training or had they flown for major airlines prior to Ryan air. The grass is always greener and I'm sure there are places a lot worse even than there. Well, almost sure anyway.
As for "There are indeed a few guys who are happy with the salary and the aircraft, but the majority are not, you only have to look at the numbers who are leaving to see that." I would suggest that could also apply to flybe as it was. Prior to the Bacon merger Flybe had huge regular resignations each winter (someone told me about 60 pilots resigned last winter, 13 Q400 captains in December alone) and the bottom third of the seniority list mostly left before they even unfroze their ATPLs, primarily due to poor pay compared with elsewhere plus deliberate policy of sending people from the South to EDI/GLA/BHD and then recruiting for SOU/EXT/BHX without letting people alread in the seniority system bid for a transfer.
It will be interesting to see what this winter brings.
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Have you seen the latest video on 'you tube' of leeds airport ground staff pushing back a flybe aircraft by hand? Surprised they dont dont it more often that way they would save enough to give the cabin crew a decent pay rise instead of trying to cut us out of the bonus scheme lol
MVE,
So where did all the names for exit interviews in November and December last year (displayed for all to see on the wall board in ops admin) come from if it wasn't true?
So where did all the names for exit interviews in November and December last year (displayed for all to see on the wall board in ops admin) come from if it wasn't true?
Last edited by excrab; 9th Oct 2007 at 20:46.
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Excrab, you will see from my post that I did not specifically lambast you for your post regarding numbers other than a frustrated picture. I can't critisise you for spreading rumours on here, after all its a rumour network.
However.....
....your comment on resignations in winter isn't such a shocker, had you given it a little thought. The charters recruit in Aug/Sep time for the next years program and with 3 months notice that means those guys recruited would be leaving in the winter.
It's not a surprise that pilots will leave before unfreezing their ATPL's; you give a young pilot good training on a challenging aircraft like the Q400 and then for obvious reasons the likes of Monarch/BA/Theifair/Easyjet etc. find those same pilots very attractive and want to recruit them. An airline like ours that gives good training and experience to low hour pilots, will always lose a lot of those same low hour pilots to higher paid, larger aircraft operators but those same operators wouldn't look twice at them had they not had their time at Flybe under their belts!!! . As was said to me in my interview 'Flybe has always been a feeder airline' - whether we remain one is yet to be seen.
I agree the basing policy needs a good look at but for instance, 3 guys off my course ended up at the exact base they wanted within 12 months of starting at Flybe, hardly a major sacrifice to make for a pilot wannabee in his first commercial job. Having swallowed up BAcon and doubled the workforce we now have more bases and therefore more chances to move! Your comment regarding basing was again exagerated and inaccurate or at the very least well outdated!
Out of interest, where would you suggest wannabbees with low hours apply for their first jobs? Give us the benefit of your experience and tell me what other airline will pay for your type rating and only bond you for 3 years and leave you in a position to apply to the like of BA?.
However.....
....your comment on resignations in winter isn't such a shocker, had you given it a little thought. The charters recruit in Aug/Sep time for the next years program and with 3 months notice that means those guys recruited would be leaving in the winter.
It's not a surprise that pilots will leave before unfreezing their ATPL's; you give a young pilot good training on a challenging aircraft like the Q400 and then for obvious reasons the likes of Monarch/BA/Theifair/Easyjet etc. find those same pilots very attractive and want to recruit them. An airline like ours that gives good training and experience to low hour pilots, will always lose a lot of those same low hour pilots to higher paid, larger aircraft operators but those same operators wouldn't look twice at them had they not had their time at Flybe under their belts!!! . As was said to me in my interview 'Flybe has always been a feeder airline' - whether we remain one is yet to be seen.
I agree the basing policy needs a good look at but for instance, 3 guys off my course ended up at the exact base they wanted within 12 months of starting at Flybe, hardly a major sacrifice to make for a pilot wannabee in his first commercial job. Having swallowed up BAcon and doubled the workforce we now have more bases and therefore more chances to move! Your comment regarding basing was again exagerated and inaccurate or at the very least well outdated!
Out of interest, where would you suggest wannabbees with low hours apply for their first jobs? Give us the benefit of your experience and tell me what other airline will pay for your type rating and only bond you for 3 years and leave you in a position to apply to the like of BA?.
Last edited by MVE; 11th Oct 2007 at 06:21.
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As someone embarking on their low hours recruitment process for flybe can some answer the following:
- Any chance of a base in southern england if a new joiner? (I count Birmingham as the furthest north I'd particularly like to go, but I do understand we can't have it all our own way.)
- How much hand flying is involved on a 4-6 sector day?
- Whats the average sector pay for a new cadet FO given I think they start you on around £23k basic?
-Do you guys really feel environmentally responsible with your green jets? (Or are you just enjoying the flying?) It's a big issue in the interview I understand.........the green thing that is.
-Finally, just how attractive is it to your next airline to have 2000 TP hours in a Q400 over someone who paid for a job with MOL and has 2000 738 hours? (Serious question as I'm sure lots of people think about this.)
Hope someone can fill in the gaps, and thanks to all in advance for your input. I really would like to be paid to fly given the money spent on training already!
Cheers
- Any chance of a base in southern england if a new joiner? (I count Birmingham as the furthest north I'd particularly like to go, but I do understand we can't have it all our own way.)
- How much hand flying is involved on a 4-6 sector day?
- Whats the average sector pay for a new cadet FO given I think they start you on around £23k basic?
-Do you guys really feel environmentally responsible with your green jets? (Or are you just enjoying the flying?) It's a big issue in the interview I understand.........the green thing that is.
-Finally, just how attractive is it to your next airline to have 2000 TP hours in a Q400 over someone who paid for a job with MOL and has 2000 738 hours? (Serious question as I'm sure lots of people think about this.)
Hope someone can fill in the gaps, and thanks to all in advance for your input. I really would like to be paid to fly given the money spent on training already!
Cheers
MVE,
As you seem to want to make this personal the first thing I would say is that you can suggest all you want, but whoever you are and whatever your experience your suggestion that I need to qualify my comments is just arrogant twaddle. Reading your post I would be inclined to think that you are a flybe management pilot or at least a flybe management wannabbee. It reads like something the tp fleet manager might write.
Anyway, I will give you the benefit of my "experience" as you sarcastly put it, which consists of eight years (so far) flying for Flybe and thirteen years working for other companies prior to that (obviously no where near your experience, I admit) and say that I cannot suggest another company that will do all those things for a low hour wannabbee. However, there is no reason that I should do, as in none of my posts have I said that Flybe is not a good place for a low houred pilot.
All I have done is to give a picture of the working conditions as I have found them, not being based in Exeter, and said that in a specific case of an experienced pilot who could get a direct entry command at either company they would be better off at Ryanair.
So why not give us the benefit of your own experience, especially of Flybe where you have obviously been for much longer than I as you know so much more about it, and prove how £52k working 5 on 2 off starting on earlies and finishing on lates is better than earning £70k plus sector pay with a 5 on 4 off fixed roster pattern, assuming there are no basing issues (as perhaps might soon be the case in BHD if the rumours about a Ryan air base are true).
You are right, also, that there is nothing surprising about pilots leaving in the winter, what however you should be worried about is how many. If you had bothered to read that part of my post you would see that I qualified it with "prior to the Bacon merger" so it might well be outdated. However whilst I will not quote names the figures were given to me by a member of the Balpa cc who might well have known what he was talking about, although you would probably say he was deliberately spreading anti company gossip. The thing you should also be worried about is how you are going to retain turboprop captains, now that the jet pay for tp trainers and the large number of Q400s compared to a small number of E195s means there is no real career progression. Although, as it appears from your post that you joined as a DEC you probably feel that isn't a problem.
Anyway, just to reiterate - I have nothing against Flybe and have enjoyed working for them, and agree with you that it isn't a bad place for low houred pilots. In my opinion, however, I think there are other companies where experienced captains could be better off. I also believe that potential recruits should get a chance to have an idea of what the company is really like to work for.
Finally, the ops admin white board thing - I didn't "hear about it", and "someone" didn't tell me about it, and I didn't "make it up and think it might be true" - I saw it last December when I was in the office in EXT, as indeed you must have done if you were also there.
As you seem to want to make this personal the first thing I would say is that you can suggest all you want, but whoever you are and whatever your experience your suggestion that I need to qualify my comments is just arrogant twaddle. Reading your post I would be inclined to think that you are a flybe management pilot or at least a flybe management wannabbee. It reads like something the tp fleet manager might write.
Anyway, I will give you the benefit of my "experience" as you sarcastly put it, which consists of eight years (so far) flying for Flybe and thirteen years working for other companies prior to that (obviously no where near your experience, I admit) and say that I cannot suggest another company that will do all those things for a low hour wannabbee. However, there is no reason that I should do, as in none of my posts have I said that Flybe is not a good place for a low houred pilot.
All I have done is to give a picture of the working conditions as I have found them, not being based in Exeter, and said that in a specific case of an experienced pilot who could get a direct entry command at either company they would be better off at Ryanair.
So why not give us the benefit of your own experience, especially of Flybe where you have obviously been for much longer than I as you know so much more about it, and prove how £52k working 5 on 2 off starting on earlies and finishing on lates is better than earning £70k plus sector pay with a 5 on 4 off fixed roster pattern, assuming there are no basing issues (as perhaps might soon be the case in BHD if the rumours about a Ryan air base are true).
You are right, also, that there is nothing surprising about pilots leaving in the winter, what however you should be worried about is how many. If you had bothered to read that part of my post you would see that I qualified it with "prior to the Bacon merger" so it might well be outdated. However whilst I will not quote names the figures were given to me by a member of the Balpa cc who might well have known what he was talking about, although you would probably say he was deliberately spreading anti company gossip. The thing you should also be worried about is how you are going to retain turboprop captains, now that the jet pay for tp trainers and the large number of Q400s compared to a small number of E195s means there is no real career progression. Although, as it appears from your post that you joined as a DEC you probably feel that isn't a problem.
Anyway, just to reiterate - I have nothing against Flybe and have enjoyed working for them, and agree with you that it isn't a bad place for low houred pilots. In my opinion, however, I think there are other companies where experienced captains could be better off. I also believe that potential recruits should get a chance to have an idea of what the company is really like to work for.
Finally, the ops admin white board thing - I didn't "hear about it", and "someone" didn't tell me about it, and I didn't "make it up and think it might be true" - I saw it last December when I was in the office in EXT, as indeed you must have done if you were also there.
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Excrab, You are obviously a delicate soul and so I have ammended my post to remove the lines that might have offended you , I would suggest you re-read the post I responded to and perhaps with a little reflection you may see why I felt the need to respond. I'm neither a management pilot nor a wannabee, as to me being arragant, I'm so good I don't need to be.
Your comment on working at Theifair is naive at best but if you think they would be such a great outfit to work for then seeya! Your silly comment on career progression I'll put down to typing while drunk!
FLYINGCAMEL.
You ask some reasonable questions so I'll try to give you some reasonable answers.....
Basing. You will find out where you are to be based on your first day of induction. There is every chance you get a base in the south but historically the northern bases are more likely as less people tend to want to live up there. The basing situation is not ideal and maybe in the future the recruiters will wake up and organise themselves sufficiently to allow recruitment for a specific base. If you suggest in the interview that you would not accept a job unless you were offered Southampton for instance then there is a chance it would go against you but better than a divorce 12 months down the road perhaps.
Hand flying.
You can handfly but your question suggests you don'y quite get the ethos behind flying modern aircraft. They are designed to be flown by autopilot and almost all of your Type training will be geared to that. That said there is plenty of chance to handfly when you can.
Duty pay.
2-400 pounds a month. Obviously drops when you take leave as you fly less.
Green thing.
What a load of tosh in my view! I can't imagine that any pilot at Flybe seriously thinks we are being 'green'. I pity you if you have to convince an interview panel of it!
TP hours vs 738.
It's got to come down to how you feel about paying for a type rating. Lets face it a 738 will win with MOL or another 738 operator but plenty of guys move to jet operators without paying for a jet type rating. Personally, I think most of our problems as an industry come down to the fact the bean counters have found people so willing to pay for type ratings and medicals and the like out of their own pockets. I appreciate that most or many would not have got a job without doing so and so I see why they have but it's short sighted. I don't think it's an exgageration to say it's ruining our industry as a whole.
Your comment on working at Theifair is naive at best but if you think they would be such a great outfit to work for then seeya! Your silly comment on career progression I'll put down to typing while drunk!
FLYINGCAMEL.
You ask some reasonable questions so I'll try to give you some reasonable answers.....
Basing. You will find out where you are to be based on your first day of induction. There is every chance you get a base in the south but historically the northern bases are more likely as less people tend to want to live up there. The basing situation is not ideal and maybe in the future the recruiters will wake up and organise themselves sufficiently to allow recruitment for a specific base. If you suggest in the interview that you would not accept a job unless you were offered Southampton for instance then there is a chance it would go against you but better than a divorce 12 months down the road perhaps.
Hand flying.
You can handfly but your question suggests you don'y quite get the ethos behind flying modern aircraft. They are designed to be flown by autopilot and almost all of your Type training will be geared to that. That said there is plenty of chance to handfly when you can.
Duty pay.
2-400 pounds a month. Obviously drops when you take leave as you fly less.
Green thing.
What a load of tosh in my view! I can't imagine that any pilot at Flybe seriously thinks we are being 'green'. I pity you if you have to convince an interview panel of it!
TP hours vs 738.
It's got to come down to how you feel about paying for a type rating. Lets face it a 738 will win with MOL or another 738 operator but plenty of guys move to jet operators without paying for a jet type rating. Personally, I think most of our problems as an industry come down to the fact the bean counters have found people so willing to pay for type ratings and medicals and the like out of their own pockets. I appreciate that most or many would not have got a job without doing so and so I see why they have but it's short sighted. I don't think it's an exgageration to say it's ruining our industry as a whole.
MVE,
This is going to be my last contribution to this debate. Flybe have an eventual plan to have about 60 turboprops and 15 embraer 195s. In the last few years when the ratio of jets to turbo props was higher it was taking about 7 - 8 years to get a jet command in BHX, and longer than that in BHD, EXT and SOU. As far as I know there are no transfers now from the Q400 to the 146 as it is being phased out, and all those who are transfering to the left seat of the emb 195 are current 146 captains, thus it is probably about 10 years to jet command at the moment.
So, the career progression scenario in a couple of years when the fleets stabilise. Pilot bloggs joins as an F/O on the Q400 earning £23k. All well and good and as you say, no up front payment for a type rating. He/she watches his/her peers from the same integrated course who have invested in a type rating with ctc earning £45k as an F/O on a boeing or an airbus, but our Flybe pilot is prepared to stay where he/or she is. After a couple of years he (I'm going to stop typing "she" as well but please no one get offended) transfers to the emb195 with another bond, having not been in the company for 10 years, and earns £35k per year whilst his peers on the boeing/airbus are earning £45k. Eventually after about 4 years he has enough hours for a command on the dash and earns £52k. (None of these figures include flight pay at Flybe or sector pay elsewhere, of course).
What does pilot Bloggs do now? Above him is a glass ceiling. Q400 LTCs/TRIs/TREs on jet salary plus training increments, which makes them pretty well off, especially with 7 or 8 years of seniority payments. They aren't about to move to the RHS of a jet elsewhere to take a pay cut, or even to the LHS of the emb195 without a lot of soul searching , as they will lose the training pay and be bonded. So there will be very few training vacancies except for those caused by retirement. The same goes for LHS embraer - not many of them and crewed by senior captains who are probably settled and won't want to move (unless of course another UK operator was to buy Emb195s).
So the career progression in the company is limited, whatever you say, and younger captains and F/Os will move continue to move on as they are quite capable of working that out. Because of this - in my opinion which is not a result of being drunk - Flybe will always be a "training airline", at least on the turboprop fleet, as long as the pilot job market remains bouyant. but at least it keeps the trainers from getting bored!
As for Ryanair - I may be naive, but if I was offered two jobs at the same base, one flying maximum hours but with a fixed roster pattern with a reasonable number of days off, and the other earning £35k per year less for max hours 5 on 2 off and only one evening in seven when I could plan to do anything because of starting on earlies and finishing on lates I would find it difficult to convince my wife and kids that the second of those was the better option. I know all about the draconian management, sacked for unstable approaches stuff but I still contend that if you keep your head down, do your job and keep clear of management it is OK for a captain based where he/she wants to be and not commuting.
Anyway, continue to enjoy the dash 8/Flybe. Maybe one day we'll get to fly together and through conversation you will suddenly say "you most be that tw*t excrab because you talk utter tosh"
This is going to be my last contribution to this debate. Flybe have an eventual plan to have about 60 turboprops and 15 embraer 195s. In the last few years when the ratio of jets to turbo props was higher it was taking about 7 - 8 years to get a jet command in BHX, and longer than that in BHD, EXT and SOU. As far as I know there are no transfers now from the Q400 to the 146 as it is being phased out, and all those who are transfering to the left seat of the emb 195 are current 146 captains, thus it is probably about 10 years to jet command at the moment.
So, the career progression scenario in a couple of years when the fleets stabilise. Pilot bloggs joins as an F/O on the Q400 earning £23k. All well and good and as you say, no up front payment for a type rating. He/she watches his/her peers from the same integrated course who have invested in a type rating with ctc earning £45k as an F/O on a boeing or an airbus, but our Flybe pilot is prepared to stay where he/or she is. After a couple of years he (I'm going to stop typing "she" as well but please no one get offended) transfers to the emb195 with another bond, having not been in the company for 10 years, and earns £35k per year whilst his peers on the boeing/airbus are earning £45k. Eventually after about 4 years he has enough hours for a command on the dash and earns £52k. (None of these figures include flight pay at Flybe or sector pay elsewhere, of course).
What does pilot Bloggs do now? Above him is a glass ceiling. Q400 LTCs/TRIs/TREs on jet salary plus training increments, which makes them pretty well off, especially with 7 or 8 years of seniority payments. They aren't about to move to the RHS of a jet elsewhere to take a pay cut, or even to the LHS of the emb195 without a lot of soul searching , as they will lose the training pay and be bonded. So there will be very few training vacancies except for those caused by retirement. The same goes for LHS embraer - not many of them and crewed by senior captains who are probably settled and won't want to move (unless of course another UK operator was to buy Emb195s).
So the career progression in the company is limited, whatever you say, and younger captains and F/Os will move continue to move on as they are quite capable of working that out. Because of this - in my opinion which is not a result of being drunk - Flybe will always be a "training airline", at least on the turboprop fleet, as long as the pilot job market remains bouyant. but at least it keeps the trainers from getting bored!
As for Ryanair - I may be naive, but if I was offered two jobs at the same base, one flying maximum hours but with a fixed roster pattern with a reasonable number of days off, and the other earning £35k per year less for max hours 5 on 2 off and only one evening in seven when I could plan to do anything because of starting on earlies and finishing on lates I would find it difficult to convince my wife and kids that the second of those was the better option. I know all about the draconian management, sacked for unstable approaches stuff but I still contend that if you keep your head down, do your job and keep clear of management it is OK for a captain based where he/she wants to be and not commuting.
Anyway, continue to enjoy the dash 8/Flybe. Maybe one day we'll get to fly together and through conversation you will suddenly say "you most be that tw*t excrab because you talk utter tosh"
Gender Faculty Specialist
Excrab
Oh no they're not!
and all those who are transfering to the left seat of the emb 195 are current 146 captains
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Excrab a very quick reply for you......
1. No offence intended and best of luck
2. Why did it take you years to move on to another jet job when almost every other jet employer pays more?
3. Did you ever try for training and the better salary?
4. How many hours did you start at Flybe with? Very low experience I bet!
5. How many other airlines offered you a job when you had low hours?
6. If you join Flybe to fly jets then you are joining the wrong airline (see point 2)
7. Mine's a bitter and no name calling!
8. The fact that Flybe offers great training and experience is a good reason to join rather than not.
9. Can you find me any airline in the UK that offers such good prospects to low hour wannabees and doesn't ask you to pay for the TR.
10. How can career progression be limited when they offer Captaincy to some at just 2000hours total time?
11. That means a new FO joining Flybe on the Q400 could be a Captain on 52k a year in approx' 3.5 years. Find me any other airline that offers that?
12. In answer to the original question asked, I can tell you Flybe isn't Ryanair and thank god for that!
1. No offence intended and best of luck
2. Why did it take you years to move on to another jet job when almost every other jet employer pays more?
3. Did you ever try for training and the better salary?
4. How many hours did you start at Flybe with? Very low experience I bet!
5. How many other airlines offered you a job when you had low hours?
6. If you join Flybe to fly jets then you are joining the wrong airline (see point 2)
7. Mine's a bitter and no name calling!
8. The fact that Flybe offers great training and experience is a good reason to join rather than not.
9. Can you find me any airline in the UK that offers such good prospects to low hour wannabees and doesn't ask you to pay for the TR.
10. How can career progression be limited when they offer Captaincy to some at just 2000hours total time?
11. That means a new FO joining Flybe on the Q400 could be a Captain on 52k a year in approx' 3.5 years. Find me any other airline that offers that?
12. In answer to the original question asked, I can tell you Flybe isn't Ryanair and thank god for that!
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I have been observing this thread with interest as someone who may one day consider a "downward move" as some may call it to have a command in the UK at a regional base that I want to be at.
First thing I can say with experience of our 5/4/5/3 roster pattern is that unless Flybe sorts that out they will ALWAYS loose people.
Since introducing the fixed pattern and further improvements to it thanks to BALPA perseverence attrition rates at EZY have never been so low.
Pilots value lifestyle, and its a thin line between living in the regions and getting maybe one "valuable" evening at home a week and commuting from the regions to London but having more valuable time at home. A thin line that I am yet undecided upon which side is better for my future.
As for an airline that pays for your TR etc etc I spoke to a mate yesterday who is an FO at ScotAirways/Suckling and although I think there is a lot of change there at the moment with respect to the City Jet deal, when they recruit you on to the 328 your are paid a salary and are bonded for 15K over three years with no loan agreements. You also get a uniform accomodation whilst training and medicals paid for. It'a always been a gentleman's type agreement and although not the highest paid certainly a great first job, also used to be good for internal command promotion too, but as said above may all be changing.
And yes I did used to work for them.
First thing I can say with experience of our 5/4/5/3 roster pattern is that unless Flybe sorts that out they will ALWAYS loose people.
Since introducing the fixed pattern and further improvements to it thanks to BALPA perseverence attrition rates at EZY have never been so low.
Pilots value lifestyle, and its a thin line between living in the regions and getting maybe one "valuable" evening at home a week and commuting from the regions to London but having more valuable time at home. A thin line that I am yet undecided upon which side is better for my future.
As for an airline that pays for your TR etc etc I spoke to a mate yesterday who is an FO at ScotAirways/Suckling and although I think there is a lot of change there at the moment with respect to the City Jet deal, when they recruit you on to the 328 your are paid a salary and are bonded for 15K over three years with no loan agreements. You also get a uniform accomodation whilst training and medicals paid for. It'a always been a gentleman's type agreement and although not the highest paid certainly a great first job, also used to be good for internal command promotion too, but as said above may all be changing.
And yes I did used to work for them.
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Dash 8 to EZY - still pay out for type rating
A 10 year captain on Dash 8 pre Flybe take over went to EZY this year but still had to do TRSS.
I find it astonishing and probably a result of the TP v Jet talent discrimination airlines have adopted since Pontius was a pilot.
Even if excrab is right regarding Flybe being a training airline, a leaver on the Q400 fleet may still have to pay for a jet rating after all!
"What a way to run a rail road" springs to mind.
I find it astonishing and probably a result of the TP v Jet talent discrimination airlines have adopted since Pontius was a pilot.
Even if excrab is right regarding Flybe being a training airline, a leaver on the Q400 fleet may still have to pay for a jet rating after all!
"What a way to run a rail road" springs to mind.
Join Date: Sep 2006
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What is it like to work for FlyBe?
Well FlyBe rostering is truly in the dark ages;
6 or 5 on, then 2 (mainly) or 3 (occasionally) off. Policy is to minimize days off even if this means a good number of days are only two sectors.
You will start your days off from a late and the first duty back will be an early - which on a two off means you only get one evening effectively free, and when coupled with 6 on is, from the rest/recovery point of view, bordering on the dangerous.
You will not get many of your request days off granted - Manchester pilots were told that you get a request day if it fits with the roster pattern - in other words you get a request day granted if you were going to get a day off then anyway.
Unless you are very senior you wont get much if any of the holiday you bid for.
The weakness of the scheduling agreement means the company has wide latitude to arbitrarily extend/alter duty days and convert early standbys into late duties.
On the plus side there’s a great bunch of people to work with, and that includes the crews and the front-line crewing officers and rosterers down in EXT who seem decent enough when you talk to them (which makes it difficult to understand why the rostering’s so cr@p - I think it has to do with policy and company structure - which is apparently unusual in that the rosterers and crewers aren’t under the same direct management chain as the flight crews). Also there doesn’t seem to be a blame culture if you’re honest, and captains are allowed to get on with being captains without being micro-managed.
In summary: If you’re a newbie looking for experience, or experienced and in the happy position to be able to work a part time contract, FlyBe is for you. On the other hand if you have the experience to be able to choose, and you aspire to some sort of reasonable family/home/social work life balance, then look elsewhere. Pity really; FlyBe could be O.K. if it got the rostering right, but as ezydriver says "pilots value lifestyle" and unfortunately as long as its current rostering practices continue it will remain a high crew turnover training airline.
6 or 5 on, then 2 (mainly) or 3 (occasionally) off. Policy is to minimize days off even if this means a good number of days are only two sectors.
You will start your days off from a late and the first duty back will be an early - which on a two off means you only get one evening effectively free, and when coupled with 6 on is, from the rest/recovery point of view, bordering on the dangerous.
You will not get many of your request days off granted - Manchester pilots were told that you get a request day if it fits with the roster pattern - in other words you get a request day granted if you were going to get a day off then anyway.
Unless you are very senior you wont get much if any of the holiday you bid for.
The weakness of the scheduling agreement means the company has wide latitude to arbitrarily extend/alter duty days and convert early standbys into late duties.
On the plus side there’s a great bunch of people to work with, and that includes the crews and the front-line crewing officers and rosterers down in EXT who seem decent enough when you talk to them (which makes it difficult to understand why the rostering’s so cr@p - I think it has to do with policy and company structure - which is apparently unusual in that the rosterers and crewers aren’t under the same direct management chain as the flight crews). Also there doesn’t seem to be a blame culture if you’re honest, and captains are allowed to get on with being captains without being micro-managed.
In summary: If you’re a newbie looking for experience, or experienced and in the happy position to be able to work a part time contract, FlyBe is for you. On the other hand if you have the experience to be able to choose, and you aspire to some sort of reasonable family/home/social work life balance, then look elsewhere. Pity really; FlyBe could be O.K. if it got the rostering right, but as ezydriver says "pilots value lifestyle" and unfortunately as long as its current rostering practices continue it will remain a high crew turnover training airline.
MVE
1. Thankyou
2. Job satisfaction
3. See 2 and draw your own conclusion. Not much satisfaction in A-B four times a day for 8 years
4. You might lose the bet. It may surprise you to learn that DECs are not a new thing at Flybe/British European/JEA
5. 2 Neither of which were Flybe which at the time operated 5 turboprops. The one I joined only exists now in the history books
6. Proves my point about career progression
7. No problem I'll get them in
8. I agree
9. Initially good prospects see 6. Also see ezydrivers post re scotair
10. see 6 again its not about what you fly but sadly for most the money is more important
11. BMI baby, Jet2, possibly easy depending on basing. They might have to pay for a tr but will earn significantly more initially and after 4 yrs hard work command on a 737 or bus is possible at £70k plus ? depending on the company
12. I never said it was
1. Thankyou
2. Job satisfaction
3. See 2 and draw your own conclusion. Not much satisfaction in A-B four times a day for 8 years
4. You might lose the bet. It may surprise you to learn that DECs are not a new thing at Flybe/British European/JEA
5. 2 Neither of which were Flybe which at the time operated 5 turboprops. The one I joined only exists now in the history books
6. Proves my point about career progression
7. No problem I'll get them in
8. I agree
9. Initially good prospects see 6. Also see ezydrivers post re scotair
10. see 6 again its not about what you fly but sadly for most the money is more important
11. BMI baby, Jet2, possibly easy depending on basing. They might have to pay for a tr but will earn significantly more initially and after 4 yrs hard work command on a 737 or bus is possible at £70k plus ? depending on the company
12. I never said it was
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Any FlyBe FO's here that can answer my questions?
How do you find the operational environment with regards to SOP adherence and so on? Paperless cockpit?
I've got about 1200 hours TT of which about 800 are on a JAR 25 TP. How
long will my time to command be (all other JAR-FCL requirements fulfilled).
Schedulingwise, is there an economic compensation for changes in the roster or are they able to move it about as they please? How about overtime compensation and working on offdays? What will a typical monthly salary after tax look like (I ask after tax because I don't know the UK income tax, I'm Swedish). What are the additional allowances (overnight payments, sector pay, weekend compensation and so on)?
How big is the bond, that is, how much is the max amount that one can be required to pay incase one decides to leave before the 3 year bond is over?
What's the chance of getting the Exeter or channel island base's? Is it part of the initial contract or is it a lottery once you get in?
Are there any other benefits involved, health plan with free gymcard or similar goodies? Staff travel with FlyBe and/or allied airlines?
License and medical fee's paid?
Sectors per day? How early are the earlies and how late are the lates? How long (block time) are the sectors in average?
Sorry if the questions seem stupid. I have a decent job for the time being. It pays well but this is mostly due to schedueling problems and excessive compensations for company f-ups. Also the operational environment is more cowboy than professional and I'm looking for a standardised cockpit environment that makes good use of functioning SOP... Basically everything you'd expect to find in the TP-swamp.
Thanks on forehand/ LnS
How do you find the operational environment with regards to SOP adherence and so on? Paperless cockpit?
I've got about 1200 hours TT of which about 800 are on a JAR 25 TP. How
long will my time to command be (all other JAR-FCL requirements fulfilled).
Schedulingwise, is there an economic compensation for changes in the roster or are they able to move it about as they please? How about overtime compensation and working on offdays? What will a typical monthly salary after tax look like (I ask after tax because I don't know the UK income tax, I'm Swedish). What are the additional allowances (overnight payments, sector pay, weekend compensation and so on)?
How big is the bond, that is, how much is the max amount that one can be required to pay incase one decides to leave before the 3 year bond is over?
What's the chance of getting the Exeter or channel island base's? Is it part of the initial contract or is it a lottery once you get in?
Are there any other benefits involved, health plan with free gymcard or similar goodies? Staff travel with FlyBe and/or allied airlines?
License and medical fee's paid?
Sectors per day? How early are the earlies and how late are the lates? How long (block time) are the sectors in average?
Sorry if the questions seem stupid. I have a decent job for the time being. It pays well but this is mostly due to schedueling problems and excessive compensations for company f-ups. Also the operational environment is more cowboy than professional and I'm looking for a standardised cockpit environment that makes good use of functioning SOP... Basically everything you'd expect to find in the TP-swamp.
Thanks on forehand/ LnS
Last edited by low n' slow; 25th Oct 2007 at 20:58.