Flybe - What are they like to work for?
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brain fade, would you be one of those dead end bitter and twisted captains I referred to that no one else will employ? If not give the chap who asked the question the benefit of your experience with a constructive answer rather than a quick infintile response like the one you posted above!
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Lay off BrainFade, he's never been bitter but he sure is twisted.
FlyBE seems a great airline for that first step up onto the commercial ladder (there are a couple of others but they'll sting you upfront) and for those that aspire to progress to an early command but it was never the cup of tea that all of us BACon's wanted to drink from. A lot left but a considerable number stayed and the continued pilot turnover means that those that join (even if they don't initially get their basing preference) will get a posting where they'd like. Good luck to you Zammo!
FlyBE seems a great airline for that first step up onto the commercial ladder (there are a couple of others but they'll sting you upfront) and for those that aspire to progress to an early command but it was never the cup of tea that all of us BACon's wanted to drink from. A lot left but a considerable number stayed and the continued pilot turnover means that those that join (even if they don't initially get their basing preference) will get a posting where they'd like. Good luck to you Zammo!
Last edited by BluffOldSeaDog; 4th Oct 2007 at 18:05.
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Flybe's website says 85,000 sterling for direct entry captains. That doesn't seem to match up with the payscale posted on the same website.
Any idea what the truth is?
Any idea what the truth is?
Ace, the truth is there.
It says packages up to 82k for a DEC, and the small print at the bottom of the page tells you that you can achieve that with maximum seniority. On the same page it tells you that a turboprop captain will be earning 55k after two years, including flight pay. Flight pay is probably about £300 per month, and as the pay increments are about £700 per year you would probably start on about 53 including flight pay.
They may be accused of untruths at times but that looks about right. It isn't as much as you can get as a jet captain elsewhere, but for someone with only 2500hrs - I'm not saying that is you, of course - it isn't that bad if you get a base that you want (remember that after 2 years they are putting 12% into your pension, you don't pay up front for your training, you don't pay for your uniform, they provide health care and LOL insurance etc and you are on full salary from day one and you don't have to pay your own hotel bills when training).
Although it might not be obvious from some of the posts on pprune there are certainly worse places to work than flybe.
It says packages up to 82k for a DEC, and the small print at the bottom of the page tells you that you can achieve that with maximum seniority. On the same page it tells you that a turboprop captain will be earning 55k after two years, including flight pay. Flight pay is probably about £300 per month, and as the pay increments are about £700 per year you would probably start on about 53 including flight pay.
They may be accused of untruths at times but that looks about right. It isn't as much as you can get as a jet captain elsewhere, but for someone with only 2500hrs - I'm not saying that is you, of course - it isn't that bad if you get a base that you want (remember that after 2 years they are putting 12% into your pension, you don't pay up front for your training, you don't pay for your uniform, they provide health care and LOL insurance etc and you are on full salary from day one and you don't have to pay your own hotel bills when training).
Although it might not be obvious from some of the posts on pprune there are certainly worse places to work than flybe.
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Direct Entry CaptainsIt's probably just me but when you say Direct Entry Captains packages up to 82K Sterling that means starting pay, not pay in 17 years.
I'm well north of 2500 hours and I'm exploring options for what is hopefully my last career move. I know, nothing is final in this industry but one can hope. So, since size truly doesn't matter to me at this point I'm exploring all options, both jet and turboprop, in a search for that mystical airline where they treat you as a valued asset to the company and where hard work is rewarded.
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Yeah.
How the F*ck can you be a DIRECT ENTRY guy and have 17 years seniority at the same time??
Bluff....ermmmm, thanks
On a more constructive note then. Best thing (only good thing?) is getting to work in the regions, and frankly that is SUCH a good thing it almost outweighs all the bad things.
But the 'bad things' there are aplenty. I found it more of an attitude thing myself, by which I mean the companys attitude towards the pilots.
I'm not workshy, but I prefer to be asked if they need something extra done rather than just finding out I've got to do it. Also they do f*ck you around something special, but believe it or not, I don't mind that at all. What I do mind is being royally f*cked about for NO extra pay!!
Couple more positives then- the people you work with are really great, the flying has more variety than I had before and if you're an FO, command can never be far away.
I was lucky to leave but still have a lot of friends there (i hope
).
How the F*ck can you be a DIRECT ENTRY guy and have 17 years seniority at the same time??
Bluff....ermmmm, thanks
On a more constructive note then. Best thing (only good thing?) is getting to work in the regions, and frankly that is SUCH a good thing it almost outweighs all the bad things.
But the 'bad things' there are aplenty. I found it more of an attitude thing myself, by which I mean the companys attitude towards the pilots.
I'm not workshy, but I prefer to be asked if they need something extra done rather than just finding out I've got to do it. Also they do f*ck you around something special, but believe it or not, I don't mind that at all. What I do mind is being royally f*cked about for NO extra pay!!
Couple more positives then- the people you work with are really great, the flying has more variety than I had before and if you're an FO, command can never be far away.
I was lucky to leave but still have a lot of friends there (i hope
).
CH3CH2OH
It's probably just me but when you say Direct Entry Captains packages up to 82K Sterling that means starting pay, not pay in 17 years.
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Anyone care to expand on a few issues like:
Rostering
LoL
Crew Food
Leave Availability
Sick Pay
Bonding arangement
Note from post above pension is 12% after two years, what about the first two years?
cheers
ED
Rostering
LoL
Crew Food
Leave Availability
Sick Pay
Bonding arangement
Note from post above pension is 12% after two years, what about the first two years?
cheers
ED
Ace,
I'm afraid that the last part of your post really rules out Flybe for you (the valued asset/reward part). And realistically if you have significant experience and jet command time and can get a direct entry command you'd be better off at Ryan air.
But for anyone considering Flybe, to try and give a fair view of what it is like for a DEC -
You'll join on the Q400 and it is important to remember that there will eventually be about 60 of those and only 15 E195s. So with about 600 pilots ahead of you on the seniority list (assuming any from Bacon stay) you are going to fly the dash 8 for a long time. If that doesn't frustrate you, and you can live with the fact that F/Os you fly with now will achieve jet command before you do, and that there is no chance to progress into a training role because the turboprop trainers are on jet salaries so that is dead mans shoes as well then fair enough. The Q400 has reasonable performance and a good flight deck, and the first officers you fly with will be varied in experience but nice people. Those are good things as you will be flying 4 or 6 sector days probably 5 on 2 off but quite often 6 on 2 off, invariably starting on earlies and finishing on lates. That is what it says on your roster but that is subject to change at short notice, although there is a scheduling agreement giving you some control over your life for the next 24hrs, but that is about as far as it goes.
Whilst you are flying your 6 sector days out of BHD (it doesn't matter where you are based you'll end up night stopping there eventually) crew food will be provided for you, but as Flybe are cheapskates and saved money by not fitting ovens on the dash 8 it will consist of sandwiches, pasta salad, chocolate and crisps - just perfect now the winter is starting. You can get hot drinks of course, but the cabin crew are so busy trying to clean the cabin in the twenty minute turn arounds that you'll have to make them yourself.
If you get tired of all this and need a break then you get about five weeks leave a year. Being at the bottom of the seniority list means that it may or not be available when you actually want it, but that happens in most airlines. Should you get sick then you are entitled to statutary sick pay and Bupa cover to help you get well again, and if you get so exhausted that you lose your licence you get LOL, but that reduces so that by age 55 you only get it if you lose your licence through accident, not illness. You don't have to pay for the LOL or BUPA, but you can put your family on the BUPA scheme at a reduced rate.
Should you survive all this and reach retirement age then you can collect from the pension scheme. It isn't final salary but as money purchase schemes go it is more generous than some. When you join the scheme you have to contribute 4% which the company will match. After one year they up the company contribution to 8% and after two years to 12%. You only have to put in 4% throughout. However if you want to leave before retirement but within three years of joining you will have to pay off the bond. This is a bank loan in your name taken out when you join, but as long as you stay it is invisible to you. The company pays an extra amount into your salary each month which is equal to the loan repayment. If you leave you just keep paying back the loan, there isn't a lump sum to pay off, so if the job you are going to is going to pay you more than an extra £300 per month after tax the bond is no deterrent to leaving (which is one of the reasons that there is such a high turnover of F/Os as moving from £25k on a Q400 to £45k on a boeingbus is a no brainer).
In all honesty it's a good job for youngish guys and gals to get some command experience, or for older career changers to get a quick turboprop command and then stay there as they might be to old to move onto a large jet elsewhere. Alternatively it works if Flybe are the only significant player where you want to be based and you don't want to relocate. But like I said at the beginning of this, there are better places for those with significant experience who are mobile.
Anyway, Hope that helps you all. Any other questions you could always ask at the interview - after all you could turn the job down if they offer it to you.
I'm afraid that the last part of your post really rules out Flybe for you (the valued asset/reward part). And realistically if you have significant experience and jet command time and can get a direct entry command you'd be better off at Ryan air.
But for anyone considering Flybe, to try and give a fair view of what it is like for a DEC -
You'll join on the Q400 and it is important to remember that there will eventually be about 60 of those and only 15 E195s. So with about 600 pilots ahead of you on the seniority list (assuming any from Bacon stay) you are going to fly the dash 8 for a long time. If that doesn't frustrate you, and you can live with the fact that F/Os you fly with now will achieve jet command before you do, and that there is no chance to progress into a training role because the turboprop trainers are on jet salaries so that is dead mans shoes as well then fair enough. The Q400 has reasonable performance and a good flight deck, and the first officers you fly with will be varied in experience but nice people. Those are good things as you will be flying 4 or 6 sector days probably 5 on 2 off but quite often 6 on 2 off, invariably starting on earlies and finishing on lates. That is what it says on your roster but that is subject to change at short notice, although there is a scheduling agreement giving you some control over your life for the next 24hrs, but that is about as far as it goes.
Whilst you are flying your 6 sector days out of BHD (it doesn't matter where you are based you'll end up night stopping there eventually) crew food will be provided for you, but as Flybe are cheapskates and saved money by not fitting ovens on the dash 8 it will consist of sandwiches, pasta salad, chocolate and crisps - just perfect now the winter is starting. You can get hot drinks of course, but the cabin crew are so busy trying to clean the cabin in the twenty minute turn arounds that you'll have to make them yourself.
If you get tired of all this and need a break then you get about five weeks leave a year. Being at the bottom of the seniority list means that it may or not be available when you actually want it, but that happens in most airlines. Should you get sick then you are entitled to statutary sick pay and Bupa cover to help you get well again, and if you get so exhausted that you lose your licence you get LOL, but that reduces so that by age 55 you only get it if you lose your licence through accident, not illness. You don't have to pay for the LOL or BUPA, but you can put your family on the BUPA scheme at a reduced rate.
Should you survive all this and reach retirement age then you can collect from the pension scheme. It isn't final salary but as money purchase schemes go it is more generous than some. When you join the scheme you have to contribute 4% which the company will match. After one year they up the company contribution to 8% and after two years to 12%. You only have to put in 4% throughout. However if you want to leave before retirement but within three years of joining you will have to pay off the bond. This is a bank loan in your name taken out when you join, but as long as you stay it is invisible to you. The company pays an extra amount into your salary each month which is equal to the loan repayment. If you leave you just keep paying back the loan, there isn't a lump sum to pay off, so if the job you are going to is going to pay you more than an extra £300 per month after tax the bond is no deterrent to leaving (which is one of the reasons that there is such a high turnover of F/Os as moving from £25k on a Q400 to £45k on a boeingbus is a no brainer).
In all honesty it's a good job for youngish guys and gals to get some command experience, or for older career changers to get a quick turboprop command and then stay there as they might be to old to move onto a large jet elsewhere. Alternatively it works if Flybe are the only significant player where you want to be based and you don't want to relocate. But like I said at the beginning of this, there are better places for those with significant experience who are mobile.
Anyway, Hope that helps you all. Any other questions you could always ask at the interview - after all you could turn the job down if they offer it to you.
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Ace - I agree, a DEC should be given an accurate reflection of what his actual salary is likely to be at the start, and in this case it won't be anywhere near £82k, £50k is nearer the mark for as year 1 DEC on the 400. The ad is typical Flybe marketing speak - not an outright lie, but not really true either, they're experts at that!
Given your experience and the desire for this to be your final career move, DO NOT go anywhere near Flybe, you'll regret it for sure. They are an excellent airline and provide some good equipment for someone starting their Commercial flying career, but for experienced types....
There are a few exceptions of course, if you live within 10 minutes of a Flybe base and looking to maybe move to part time working as an initial step towards winding down your career, then it's worth considering, but otherwise don't even think about it.
Given your experience and the desire for this to be your final career move, DO NOT go anywhere near Flybe, you'll regret it for sure. They are an excellent airline and provide some good equipment for someone starting their Commercial flying career, but for experienced types....
There are a few exceptions of course, if you live within 10 minutes of a Flybe base and looking to maybe move to part time working as an initial step towards winding down your career, then it's worth considering, but otherwise don't even think about it.
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However if you want to leave before retirement but within three years of joining you will have to pay off the bond. This is a bank loan in your name taken out when you join, but as long as you stay it is invisible to you. The company pays an extra amount into your salary each month which is equal to the loan repayment. If you leave you just keep paying back the loan, there isn't a lump sum to pay off, so if the job you are going to is going to pay you more than an extra £300 per month after tax the bond is no deterrent to leaving (which is one of the reasons that there is such a high turnover of F/Os as moving from £25k on a Q400 to £45k on a boeingbus is a no brainer).
This is not quite incorrect!
There is no bank loan. The company pay for the training up front and if you leave before 36 months you pay back the outstanding 1/36th monthly amount
Turn rounds are min 25 mins.
Leave is 28 days rising to 33 by 1 day per annum for the first five years.
The rest is reasonably accurate if not a little gilted
Last edited by bigmustard; 4th Oct 2007 at 13:21. Reason: Bit harsh on old crabbie!
Bigmustard,
My apologies - when I joined they took out a loan with Barclays in Exeter in my name which worked as I said. Didn't realise it had changed recently.
As for leave, I would suggest that 28 days is "about five weeks" as I said (technically 5.6 weeks so I suppose Flybe would argue that it is "about six weeks", using the same logic they use to quote 82k as the DEC salary).
Scheduled turn arounds are 25 minutes, except of course for the 15 minute ones on the channel Islands out of EXT and BHX in the winter. And if your running late in the evening and trying to get back to any base on the network which isn't open 24 hours.
My apologies - when I joined they took out a loan with Barclays in Exeter in my name which worked as I said. Didn't realise it had changed recently.
As for leave, I would suggest that 28 days is "about five weeks" as I said (technically 5.6 weeks so I suppose Flybe would argue that it is "about six weeks", using the same logic they use to quote 82k as the DEC salary).
Scheduled turn arounds are 25 minutes, except of course for the 15 minute ones on the channel Islands out of EXT and BHX in the winter. And if your running late in the evening and trying to get back to any base on the network which isn't open 24 hours.
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Big mustard is right, the bank loan thing went a couple of years ago, there is a bond you sign which if you stay for the 3 years means a free type rating.
Correct on the 25 mins turn arounds, as to the payscale adverts there were a lot of people in Flt ops who were extremely pissed off
with the dis-ingenuous adverts regarding pay, never mind those of us actually flying on a lot less wondering what they were talking about. The small print is the believable bit.
You also should consider that flybe is a fairly new company and they are changing all the time, by that I mean that you cannot consider Flybe the same company as the one before we bought Bacon. The company is twice the size and simply cannot afford the turnover of pilots from recent years. There is a definate feeling (imho) that the airline is maturing from the type of organisation that still thinks it runs a couple of sheds out of a portacabin into a professional major airline.
The recruitement process has changed beyond recognition with the online application, dedicated professional recruiters and the like.
We all have high hopes for the new enlarged CC.
I have flown military and major long haul UK and while the pay is not quite as good, I am very happy to be at home almost every night and not living out of suit case for most of my working month! Plus I get to handfly a lively aircraft rather than sit and watch an autopilot for 9 hours on end
Finally, there do seem to be a fair share of hasbeens flying for us that either can't or won't move on despite constant complaining (and if they did us all a favour and fO'd elsewhere it would certainly be a better place to work!) but even so we are growing rapidly, promotion is extremely quick and at the end of 3 years, having joined as a new fo out of training, if you are not knocking on or already promoted to Captain you should try another profession.
Correct on the 25 mins turn arounds, as to the payscale adverts there were a lot of people in Flt ops who were extremely pissed off
with the dis-ingenuous adverts regarding pay, never mind those of us actually flying on a lot less wondering what they were talking about. The small print is the believable bit.You also should consider that flybe is a fairly new company and they are changing all the time, by that I mean that you cannot consider Flybe the same company as the one before we bought Bacon. The company is twice the size and simply cannot afford the turnover of pilots from recent years. There is a definate feeling (imho) that the airline is maturing from the type of organisation that still thinks it runs a couple of sheds out of a portacabin into a professional major airline.
The recruitement process has changed beyond recognition with the online application, dedicated professional recruiters and the like.
We all have high hopes for the new enlarged CC.
I have flown military and major long haul UK and while the pay is not quite as good, I am very happy to be at home almost every night and not living out of suit case for most of my working month! Plus I get to handfly a lively aircraft rather than sit and watch an autopilot for 9 hours on end
Finally, there do seem to be a fair share of hasbeens flying for us that either can't or won't move on despite constant complaining (and if they did us all a favour and fO'd elsewhere it would certainly be a better place to work!) but even so we are growing rapidly, promotion is extremely quick and at the end of 3 years, having joined as a new fo out of training, if you are not knocking on or already promoted to Captain you should try another profession.
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Some of the posts above have highlighted one of the major problems with PPRUNE - you never know if the person writing the thread reply is just simply talking bolox or just a bitter and twisted ex employ (no offence brain fade) or simply has out of date info. You have to take anything you read on PPRUNE with a large pinch of salt and do your best to sort the wheat from the chaff! I'd include my posts in the as well!
Last edited by MVE; 4th Oct 2007 at 13:21.
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Hi Excrab
No apology necessary
The leave thing. Well, it is as I described but I did not add the wrap around days which means that after 5 years service you have 2 days short of 7 weeks.
No apology necessary
The leave thing. Well, it is as I described but I did not add the wrap around days which means that after 5 years service you have 2 days short of 7 weeks.
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Brain Fade - of course we are still your friends, just....
Truth is flybe has changed already in the few months since you departed. The early days post merger, were like the dying days of BA Connect - shambolic. Long delays, loads of cancellations and constantly being messed about. Now it aint perfect, but over the past few months things do seem to have settled down considerably and its nice to be back once again running on time or early most days. Not perfect, but not quite as cack as you remember !
Truth is flybe has changed already in the few months since you departed. The early days post merger, were like the dying days of BA Connect - shambolic. Long delays, loads of cancellations and constantly being messed about. Now it aint perfect, but over the past few months things do seem to have settled down considerably and its nice to be back once again running on time or early most days. Not perfect, but not quite as cack as you remember !
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Does anyone have any experience of the interview process with Flybe; especially relating to a rookie commercial aviator
I also understand that a sim assessment is conducted via FlightSafety at FAB. Can anyone elaborate on this?
Would also appreciate any information concerning the Q400. Where the TR is conducted, what the aircraft is like to fly, does it have any traps or shortcomings? Many thanks
CK
I also understand that a sim assessment is conducted via FlightSafety at FAB. Can anyone elaborate on this?
Would also appreciate any information concerning the Q400. Where the TR is conducted, what the aircraft is like to fly, does it have any traps or shortcomings? Many thanks
CK
Hirsutesme,
Whilst some of what appears on Ryanairs website is probably spin, we have also seen that flybe are guilty of that as well. Obviously it would depend on where you live and basing etc, but if you can get the base you want at Ryan air they claim to offer DECs a package upto £100k as opposed to 82k at Flybe, and a fixed 5 on 4 off roster with no planned nightstops as opposed to 5 on 2 off with night stops wherever required at short notice as crewing try to keep the show running (not their fault, I would add).
Remembering that a DEC at Ryan air doesn't pay up front for training if type rated as do the low houred recruits, I stand by my statement that a pilot with the hours for a command at either company would be better off at Ryan air, and that is backed up, I'm afraid, by the views of a couple of Ryan air captains I have spoken to recently who 18 months ago were Flybe 146 captains.
What I didn't say was that Flybe were worse than Ryan air - apart from anything else I have no personal experience of Ryan air so wouldn't be qualified to judge. I would suggest that for anyone other than a hire houred DEC with medium/heavy jet command experience Flybe is certainly better, but that is only my opinion, and as MVE said you have no way off knowing if that is based on ten years at Flybe or ten months or even no years and no months anywhere except for microsoft flightsim - you will indeed have to sort the wheat from the chaff.
Whilst some of what appears on Ryanairs website is probably spin, we have also seen that flybe are guilty of that as well. Obviously it would depend on where you live and basing etc, but if you can get the base you want at Ryan air they claim to offer DECs a package upto £100k as opposed to 82k at Flybe, and a fixed 5 on 4 off roster with no planned nightstops as opposed to 5 on 2 off with night stops wherever required at short notice as crewing try to keep the show running (not their fault, I would add).
Remembering that a DEC at Ryan air doesn't pay up front for training if type rated as do the low houred recruits, I stand by my statement that a pilot with the hours for a command at either company would be better off at Ryan air, and that is backed up, I'm afraid, by the views of a couple of Ryan air captains I have spoken to recently who 18 months ago were Flybe 146 captains.
What I didn't say was that Flybe were worse than Ryan air - apart from anything else I have no personal experience of Ryan air so wouldn't be qualified to judge. I would suggest that for anyone other than a hire houred DEC with medium/heavy jet command experience Flybe is certainly better, but that is only my opinion, and as MVE said you have no way off knowing if that is based on ten years at Flybe or ten months or even no years and no months anywhere except for microsoft flightsim - you will indeed have to sort the wheat from the chaff.