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non-company flight time

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non-company flight time

Old 23rd Aug 2007, 11:03
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: here
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non-company flight time

Dear all,

I am writing to ask if anyone out there has ever been or is still being told that they can not fly outside the hours they fly with their company. My company (a major airline) has stipulated that as of this month pilots are not allowed to fly (apart from my duty hours given to me by the company itself) except for the OCCASIONAL joy ride. This includes flying more than a few times in my own aircraft, as an instructor or any other activity that I can be paid for as a pilot. This was not in my contract when I signed it 15 years ago. If I can not fly, I will lose my ratings and endorsements.

Thank you in advance,

clipped-wings is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2007, 12:24
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: AEP
Age: 76
Posts: 1,421
For my airline, we have a limitation that we cannot fly commercially for another airline. I occasionally fly as ferry/delivery pilot outside of my airline. One limitation however, we cannot exceed 120 hours flight time monthly nor 1,000 hours flight time yearly.
If I would fly commercially for another airline, on a temporary contract, I have to advise my chief pilot, obtain his approval, and my salary is suspended during that period of time. Hours logged must be accounted in flight time limitations, upon my return.
Private flying (light airplanes) is not included in such limitations. I did flight training of aero-club cadets, or private flying for fun. No problem for that.

Happy contrails
BelArgUSA is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2007, 13:07
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Disgusted of Tunbridge
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But you can fly- for private recreational flying! What they are saying is 'while you are full-time with us, being paid for a full time job, you don't do paid-for flying employment with anybody else unless we vet it (and guess what the answer will be!).

Companies are now required to monitor 'extraneous' flying by their pilots. All such extraneous flying goes towards your mandatory weekly/monthly/annual flying hour limits. So the company expects to get full contractual flying limits out of you...for the benefit of paying you a full-time salary. Do you think it reasonable to say to them 'well- I've been flying 15 hours this month, so would you reduce my duty hours by 12 flying hours please (but keep the full time salary coming in please!)'. Or 'I can't do the Paphos on Friday because I flew my Cherokee to Plymouth on Monday!- but that's not MY problem!' It is your problem. you are a full time professional pilot. Sadly, private flying WILL affect your job. there is a simple solution- go part-time if you can- that way you can fly as much as you like in your own time for part-time pay, and it won't affect your profession. Exactly how much do you expect from your company- it's perfectly reasonable?
Rainboe is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2007, 19:27
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 31
Stopping you flying your own aeroplane is like telling a coach driver he cannot drive his own car home after a day at work !
jazzcat2000 is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2007, 19:40
  #5 (permalink)  
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Disgusted of Tunbridge
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Yes, but if his driving his car took time away from his legal coach driving hours limit so he could not do a full day's work, then why should he get a full days pay?
Rainboe is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2007, 21:56
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Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: I wouldn't know.
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Rules are quite different even within the JAR region. In germany for example you can fly recreationally as much as you want, however every blockhour you get payed for is commercial flying and counts toward the 900 block hours per year limit and therefore the company has to be advised about that.

In austria apparently every hour flown counts towards the yearly limit and that includes recreational flying as well, be it in ultralights, gliders or powered planes.

Best is to ask the local authority about the rules that apply to you and make sure you stay within them. Sadly that can mean you can no longer fly your own airplane if you work fulltime.
Denti is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2007, 22:04
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Cloud 9
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I think the problem is, and depending where you are, that you can fly a maximum of perhaps 900 hours per year and ALL flight hours need to be recorded and if the airline are paying a full salary then then may feel entitled to full entitlement and/or utilisation of these hours.
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Old 24th Aug 2007, 00:40
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Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Asia
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If you are employed full time then the company "own" your annual flying hours and are entitled to roster you to the limits of those hours. Permission MAY be given for outside flying if it does not interfere with company requirements.

If you work for a low cost which rosters to the max, and are in a country which counts private flying towards your annual limit, you are probably better of with a social rather than full flying membership at the local aero club.
Metro man is offline  
Old 24th Aug 2007, 06:43
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Essex
Age: 50
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AFAIK in the UK, recreational flight time does not count towards the 900 hour maximum, am I correct in that assumption?
AlexL is offline  
Old 27th Aug 2007, 10:58
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Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: North
Posts: 30
From memory (and it was quite a while ago) in the UK private flying did not count if the aircraft was below a certain weight. The weight you will have to check but I recall either 1260Kg or 2700ishKg - as I said it's a while ago and this is from memory.

So I used to do prvate light aircraft recreational flying no problems at all in the UK (chipmunk, aeoronca champ). In a previous life I used to fly citations and every now and then I used to do an unpaid flight (usually deliver to maintenance) and I used to advice my chief pilot and he was ok with that. My duty hours never came near any legal maximums and so long as that was the case - that's all he was concerned with.

Sadly lost touch with both now and just fly the jet at work.

Hope this helps and please bear in mind this is all from memory and may well be rubbish under todays rules.

Hoover Pilot is offline  
Old 27th Aug 2007, 15:46
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Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: South East England
Posts: 585
From my companies FTL scheme:-
"Flight Crew are required to inform the Company of all flight times and
duty periods undertaken, whether professionally or privately, except for
flying in aircraft not exceeding 1600 kg maximum weight and not flying
for the purpose of public transport or aerial work. Aerial work includes
flying instruction for which the pilot is remunerated. It is also aerial work
where valuable consideration is given specifically for flying instruction,
even if the pilot receives no reward.
Pilots are required to ensure that any accountable flying as specified
above, does not infringe days off as required by this scheme."

And from a recent communication on the subject
"The authorisation to conduct flying activities (or other aviation related activities) outside (the airline) is subject to you reporting details of this flying and ensuring that this does not affect your availability or fitness to operate for (the airline). It is the responsibility of all pilots to ensure that we meet the requirements of the (the airline) Approved Flight Time Limitation scheme, as published in Part A General/Basic Section 7.

I would like to draw particular attention to Part A Section 7.2 (B) (iv), which states that accountable flying must not infringe days off required by the FTL scheme. This means that if any accountable flying is conducted on a day off, this day no longer counts as a day off for the purposes of the FTL scheme. Accountable flying is defined as any flying other than private flying on aeroplanes less than 1600kg. This requirement of the FTL Scheme is in excess of the requirements of the ANO and is imposed on most airlines."

So in our scheme I can do as much private flying in my own aircraft as I like.My company are also happy with my instructing in our own flying club aircraft as it is unrenumerated.Expect to see a FODCOM out on this soon as the CAA seem to be focusing on this area a lot with the operators.I believe they are concerned with the number of Training Captains freelancing in sims. not taking adequate rest and days off before operating.

Last edited by Stampe; 27th Aug 2007 at 16:00.
Stampe is offline  
Old 2nd Sep 2007, 20:44
  #12 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Age: 57
Posts: 493
Dont log the hours you spend cruising around in your microlight ??

Running for cover now ........
rmac is offline  
Old 2nd Sep 2007, 21:22
  #13 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: In my seat
Posts: 822
If you're that concerned, just don't log it!
The company doesn't need to know all you do in private, it's not Orwells world just yet.

If my company would start a rule that would affect my private time/hobby/passtime, I would do it just to give them a well meant F. You.

always will be a rebel
despegue is offline  
Old 2nd Sep 2007, 21:34
  #14 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: 30 West
Age: 62
Posts: 926
As previous posters have said, they can't touch you up to the weight limit or unless you are being paid for it - tell them to poke it or ignore them and crack on enjoying yourself
javelin is offline  

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