What is the max. paycut in a pilot union contract outside of the US?
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,598
Likes: 11
From: Down south, USA.
What is the max. paycut in a pilot union contract outside of the US?
Whether an objective gross-income percentage will be published on Pprune might prove interesting.
This question is not directed at other cost reductions-only paychecks ('pay packets').
This question is not directed at other cost reductions-only paychecks ('pay packets').
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,835
Likes: 85
From: Boldly going where no split infinitive has gone before..
IO,
The over whelming trend is the industry world-wide has been for market driven pay rises.
The situation in the US has, IMHO, been driven by two artificial, non free market forces- Chapter 11 and the almost universal application of seniority systems.
Chapter 11 has kept non profitable carriers in busness long after their use by date, leading to an over-supply.
Seniority has meant that unions will agree to incredible concessions to keep a carrier afloat, as letting it die will give their members no choice but to join the end of a long seniority list elsewhere.
Whilst many companies elsewhere DO have a seniority system (and it is appropriate in large, slow growing "legacy" carriers), there are at least enough that don't such that, when faced with redundency, you at least have a chance of finding a job comensurate with your experience.
I was a captain with a major carrier that went out of business. I ended up with the straight choice of joining a "Legacy" carrier on the bottom, or taking a DEC position with an overseas carrier. I chose the latter, and am grateful that I at least had the choice.
The over whelming trend is the industry world-wide has been for market driven pay rises.
The situation in the US has, IMHO, been driven by two artificial, non free market forces- Chapter 11 and the almost universal application of seniority systems.
Chapter 11 has kept non profitable carriers in busness long after their use by date, leading to an over-supply.
Seniority has meant that unions will agree to incredible concessions to keep a carrier afloat, as letting it die will give their members no choice but to join the end of a long seniority list elsewhere.
Whilst many companies elsewhere DO have a seniority system (and it is appropriate in large, slow growing "legacy" carriers), there are at least enough that don't such that, when faced with redundency, you at least have a chance of finding a job comensurate with your experience.
I was a captain with a major carrier that went out of business. I ended up with the straight choice of joining a "Legacy" carrier on the bottom, or taking a DEC position with an overseas carrier. I chose the latter, and am grateful that I at least had the choice.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,598
Likes: 11
From: Down south, USA.
WizofOz:
Thank you.
You have described in a nutshell what has permanently poisoned this industry over here-and created the "Stockholm Syndrome" (effect) between many of our pilot union leaders and 'certain' Upper Mgmts. The results for many thousands of pilots have been severe. One of our 51 year-old Captains just left to become a new-hire at a US freight airline. A former LEC rep is about to
start class there! A 41 year-old FO ("Don't mess with...") is about to interview with another quite strong competitor of theirs. Check the challenges in passenger airline recruiting over here. One of our pilots ('n-body' FO) on our c0ckp1t jumpseat recently, studies to become a Nursing Anesthesiologist (much more lucrative). The term management is used here very loosely. It often "allegedly" means "inside" stock manipulation, and not much else among the boys on top. Most were never interested in aviation, and never will be.
The change in US bankruptcy laws about two years ago in October created an undue pressure on US corporations and individuals. Some of the govt. inspiration could have been from the the PBGC (Pension Benefit...)-the pseudo government corporation which guarantees the lower-paying retirements. Some of the PBGC staff were also on the ATSB (Air Transport Stab. Board). Unless my info is wrong, a conflict of interest?
Anyway, after that date, emerging from Chapter 11 would be much more difficult.
It also created less potential pay for executives who declared Chap 11 after the date. A US major airline CEO might only reap about $5-10,000,000 in stock
, instead of pocketing about $20-25,000,000 + 
.
Just imagine all of the incentive$ to put your corporation in bankruptcy before that October date! The extremely lucrative options and expediency were quite tempting.
And foreign pilots still want to come over here... They must have close relatives, or simply need a good stepping stone early in their careers? The lady or gentleman (pilots or otherwise...) could marry a US citizen, split, and never leave the country. Many have already done so. Pass me the pelmeni.
Thank you.
You have described in a nutshell what has permanently poisoned this industry over here-and created the "Stockholm Syndrome" (effect) between many of our pilot union leaders and 'certain' Upper Mgmts. The results for many thousands of pilots have been severe. One of our 51 year-old Captains just left to become a new-hire at a US freight airline. A former LEC rep is about to
start class there! A 41 year-old FO ("Don't mess with...") is about to interview with another quite strong competitor of theirs. Check the challenges in passenger airline recruiting over here. One of our pilots ('n-body' FO) on our c0ckp1t jumpseat recently, studies to become a Nursing Anesthesiologist (much more lucrative). The term management is used here very loosely. It often "allegedly" means "inside" stock manipulation, and not much else among the boys on top. Most were never interested in aviation, and never will be.
The change in US bankruptcy laws about two years ago in October created an undue pressure on US corporations and individuals. Some of the govt. inspiration could have been from the the PBGC (Pension Benefit...)-the pseudo government corporation which guarantees the lower-paying retirements. Some of the PBGC staff were also on the ATSB (Air Transport Stab. Board). Unless my info is wrong, a conflict of interest?
Anyway, after that date, emerging from Chapter 11 would be much more difficult.
It also created less potential pay for executives who declared Chap 11 after the date. A US major airline CEO might only reap about $5-10,000,000 in stock
, instead of pocketing about $20-25,000,000 + . Just imagine all of the incentive$ to put your corporation in bankruptcy before that October date! The extremely lucrative options and expediency were quite tempting.
And foreign pilots still want to come over here... They must have close relatives, or simply need a good stepping stone early in their careers? The lady or gentleman (pilots or otherwise...) could marry a US citizen, split, and never leave the country. Many have already done so. Pass me the pelmeni.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 4th September 2007 at 04:21.
