Aer Lingus Pilots to Strike
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Perspective enjoined
I agree wholly with ihtlucy. Surely always the customer comes first?
PR, good or bad, will hit the punters right twixt the eyes. Pay & benefits above the market will be spotted (I know I'm boring) and impact on support or otherwise in the industrial struggle.
CaptK and Papa2 -when you joined, were you aware that planes fly 24/7./365(ish) and tend to get busier still during holidays? If you were, what's the problem? If you were not, then you can legitimately complain.
Oh:
Easter, New Year, XMas, May Day, Whit weekend, etc. etc. Who else works?
Police, nurses, doctors, ambulance workers, fire & rescue workers, bus drivers, taxi drivers, shop workers (yes them too), traffic wardens, council workers, ...
Not a convincing argument to me.
PR, good or bad, will hit the punters right twixt the eyes. Pay & benefits above the market will be spotted (I know I'm boring) and impact on support or otherwise in the industrial struggle.
CaptK and Papa2 -when you joined, were you aware that planes fly 24/7./365(ish) and tend to get busier still during holidays? If you were, what's the problem? If you were not, then you can legitimately complain.
Oh:
Easter, New Year, XMas, May Day, Whit weekend, etc. etc. Who else works?
Police, nurses, doctors, ambulance workers, fire & rescue workers, bus drivers, taxi drivers, shop workers (yes them too), traffic wardens, council workers, ...
Not a convincing argument to me.
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With the greatest of repect 900 you are not a pilot yourself. Not really much of your business. Sorry to be so blunt! Aer Lingus pilots are in an argument with the companies management not the passengers. If joe soap wants to fly with someone else then they are free to do so. Don't try to tell me that they won't be back if the ticket price isn't right.
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I think 900 you're missing the point of the arguement. Capt K & P2Cwere not bemoaning the fact that pilots work unsociable hours and bank holidays.They were merely pointing out that we do, that our leave days include these (if you were to subtract these from our leave entitlement the leave we do get is similar to most jobs except it's bloody hard to get summer leave) and that because the media throw out erroneous figures like 40 odd days and absurd lies that we only work 17 hours a week, you shouldn't believe it.
Other workers work these also and are justifably compensated for it. I have no problem with that and don't understand why anyone would begrudge that we are also.
I am a professional, I have trained hard and continue to train to do the job I am employed to do. It is a highly skilled, often stressful job but I enjoy what I do. There seems to be a mixture of old fashioned Irish begrudgery (at which we excel), ignorance and a desire by some on this forum to say that pilots should allow their pay, terms and conditions to be eroded until we earn minimum wage and work at the whim of our employer.
When I visit a surgeon I will pay top dollar to get the best. If I need a solicitor I will get the best I can afford. When I fly I want to fly with a professional, safety oriented airline, not one who hires anybody as long as they are cheap.
This race to the bottom has to stop, otherwise it will reach rock bottom and then those complaining here will then complain about shoddy standards in aviation and how this could be allowed to happen and why they allow monkies to fly planes.
You pay peanuts...... You continually erode your staff's working conditions you stop getting professionally minded people.
Would anyone else on here be happy if their employer unilaterally imposed changes to AGREED working conditions without consultation? Would you accept it and not protest? Would you happily bend over and take it? If so go work for Ryanair. MOL would love to see you.
Other workers work these also and are justifably compensated for it. I have no problem with that and don't understand why anyone would begrudge that we are also.
I am a professional, I have trained hard and continue to train to do the job I am employed to do. It is a highly skilled, often stressful job but I enjoy what I do. There seems to be a mixture of old fashioned Irish begrudgery (at which we excel), ignorance and a desire by some on this forum to say that pilots should allow their pay, terms and conditions to be eroded until we earn minimum wage and work at the whim of our employer.
When I visit a surgeon I will pay top dollar to get the best. If I need a solicitor I will get the best I can afford. When I fly I want to fly with a professional, safety oriented airline, not one who hires anybody as long as they are cheap.
This race to the bottom has to stop, otherwise it will reach rock bottom and then those complaining here will then complain about shoddy standards in aviation and how this could be allowed to happen and why they allow monkies to fly planes.
You pay peanuts...... You continually erode your staff's working conditions you stop getting professionally minded people.
Would anyone else on here be happy if their employer unilaterally imposed changes to AGREED working conditions without consultation? Would you accept it and not protest? Would you happily bend over and take it? If so go work for Ryanair. MOL would love to see you.
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Guys,
Unfortunately, what the posts from the likes of 900 and lucy do illustrate, is the gulf between the reality on the ground and the perceptions of joe public (even those who claim some inside knowledge) fed as they are by media simplification and management PR spin. No matter how hard you try, you're on a hiding to nothing on that front .... regardless of how many time you've had agreements reneged on.
Keep up the good fight !
Unfortunately, what the posts from the likes of 900 and lucy do illustrate, is the gulf between the reality on the ground and the perceptions of joe public (even those who claim some inside knowledge) fed as they are by media simplification and management PR spin. No matter how hard you try, you're on a hiding to nothing on that front .... regardless of how many time you've had agreements reneged on.
Keep up the good fight !
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Too true.
Why do we bother?
Because if we didn't try to inform the ignorant they'd believe every f**kin word they ever read, no matter how incredible.
Where sanity steps aside begrudgery just waltzes in.
I read another article today which said pilots in Aer Lingus work 10 hours per week! If this figure continues to decrease exponentially - the aircraft will be flying themselves!
But hey - they already do...we know that! The Indo told us, so it must be true!
Seriously though - you despair for the half-witted public. Imagine all the other bull**** we are all fed, day and daily, by the wasters who call themselves journalists. Arseholes one and all. Professional Liars!
Why do we bother?
Because if we didn't try to inform the ignorant they'd believe every f**kin word they ever read, no matter how incredible.
Where sanity steps aside begrudgery just waltzes in.
I read another article today which said pilots in Aer Lingus work 10 hours per week! If this figure continues to decrease exponentially - the aircraft will be flying themselves!
But hey - they already do...we know that! The Indo told us, so it must be true!
Seriously though - you despair for the half-witted public. Imagine all the other bull**** we are all fed, day and daily, by the wasters who call themselves journalists. Arseholes one and all. Professional Liars!
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.... Journalists who themselves are part of a very strong union and who have been known to go on strike whenever THEIR terms and conditions are touched. 
Last edited by jwirl; 23rd Aug 2007 at 19:51.
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when was the last time we saw a journalists' strike?? happens quite a bit in the Uk but can't remember a single example in ireland...
as for what you read in newspapers, i think generally the line they go on is 900 hours a year, which can erroneously get worked down to how every many hours a week (though it'd still come out at more than 10). basic problem is lack of comprehension between flying hours and working hours...
i remember last year there was a show a documentary on RTE one night about trainee doctors hours and they showed guys who had been on duty for 48 hours straight performing operations. the following night the guys from the pilots unions were on prime time or whatever giving out about pilots hours and the public were hugely unsympathetic. the idea was, if doctors can operate and work 120 hour weeks, what are these pilots whinging about when their weeks are so much shorter? that logic misses a crucial point though - if a sleepy surgeon drops the ball, that's a maximum of one person dead, if a pilot's overworked and messes up, you could be talking hundreds of casualties. which is why the flying public should want their pilots on teh top of their game.
as for what you read in newspapers, i think generally the line they go on is 900 hours a year, which can erroneously get worked down to how every many hours a week (though it'd still come out at more than 10). basic problem is lack of comprehension between flying hours and working hours...
i remember last year there was a show a documentary on RTE one night about trainee doctors hours and they showed guys who had been on duty for 48 hours straight performing operations. the following night the guys from the pilots unions were on prime time or whatever giving out about pilots hours and the public were hugely unsympathetic. the idea was, if doctors can operate and work 120 hour weeks, what are these pilots whinging about when their weeks are so much shorter? that logic misses a crucial point though - if a sleepy surgeon drops the ball, that's a maximum of one person dead, if a pilot's overworked and messes up, you could be talking hundreds of casualties. which is why the flying public should want their pilots on teh top of their game.
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when was the last time we saw a journalists' strike?? happens quite a bit in the Uk but can't remember a single example in ireland...
The first page included the following:
Irish journalists ballot over pension scheme (hypocritical bastards!)
Belfast Telegraph journalists strike over pay dispute (Is that the "S" word!?)
Regional journalists vote for strike (Not again!)
Journalists in Northern Ireland Vote For Strike at Independent Newspapers' Flagship (Shall I stop now? Oh...just ONE more!)
Industrial action by Hacks at Tony o'Reillys cash cow (it's too good to miss!)
It was a strike by the hacks which permanently closed the Irish Press.
Seems you've not been doing your homework AirGurl. Tsk Tsk.
as for what you read in newspapers, i think generally the line they go on is 900 hours a year, which can erroneously get worked down to how every many hours a week (though it'd still come out at more than 10). basic problem is lack of comprehension between flying hours and working hours...
i remember last year there was a show a documentary on RTE one night about trainee doctors hours and they showed guys who had been on duty for 48 hours straight performing operations. the following night the guys from the pilots unions were on prime time or whatever giving out about pilots hours and the public were hugely unsympathetic. the idea was, if doctors can operate and work 120 hour weeks, what are these pilots whinging about when their weeks are so much shorter? that logic misses a crucial point though - if a sleepy surgeon drops the ball, that's a maximum of one person dead, if a pilot's overworked and messes up, you could be talking hundreds of casualties. which is why the flying public should want their pilots on teh top of their game.
Don't forget the 'surgeons don't die in operating table accidents' argument! Its essential reading.
Last edited by CaptKremin; 24th Aug 2007 at 01:10.
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capt kremin, what i said was how many journalists actually strike, not how many journalists threaten to strike and i was referring to ROI, rather than the North as I'm not that familiar with the situation up there.
So for the record, the journalists who balloted over the pension stakes did not strike (and they're the same regional journalists you mention down below), the belfast telegraph journalists are not in teh ROI (though as far as i'm aware they didn't strike either), the RNAI journalists (the regional ones again) didn't strike either, that link you have about the Indo's northern journalists is actually the same dispute as the belfast telegraph and Indo Ireland staff didn't have any industrial action either.
you've not provided me with a single example of journalists actually striking here. what you've given is a host of duplicated references none of which actually resulted in strike action. another point of clarification is that 127,000 references is a fairly meaningless number, as duplication is rampant on google, and 127,000 references could relate to 127,000 disputes or 10. the press is known for its naval gazing so i'd be willing ot venture the actual number of disputes is at the lower end of the scale.
so, as you might say yourself "sigh" or "do your homework", or whatever other condascending phrase is de rigeur with you these days. you come on here and present yourself as this judgemental bastion of accuracy, knocking down the contribution of anyone who doesnt' share your (fairly narrow) piont of view. given how critical you are of the press and their lack of research and accuracy, seems bizarre that your own research and arguments are so blatantly factually flawed.
pot. kettle. black.
So for the record, the journalists who balloted over the pension stakes did not strike (and they're the same regional journalists you mention down below), the belfast telegraph journalists are not in teh ROI (though as far as i'm aware they didn't strike either), the RNAI journalists (the regional ones again) didn't strike either, that link you have about the Indo's northern journalists is actually the same dispute as the belfast telegraph and Indo Ireland staff didn't have any industrial action either.
you've not provided me with a single example of journalists actually striking here. what you've given is a host of duplicated references none of which actually resulted in strike action. another point of clarification is that 127,000 references is a fairly meaningless number, as duplication is rampant on google, and 127,000 references could relate to 127,000 disputes or 10. the press is known for its naval gazing so i'd be willing ot venture the actual number of disputes is at the lower end of the scale.
so, as you might say yourself "sigh" or "do your homework", or whatever other condascending phrase is de rigeur with you these days. you come on here and present yourself as this judgemental bastion of accuracy, knocking down the contribution of anyone who doesnt' share your (fairly narrow) piont of view. given how critical you are of the press and their lack of research and accuracy, seems bizarre that your own research and arguments are so blatantly factually flawed.
pot. kettle. black.
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WideBodiedEng,
That's a good point of course. But consider this hypothetical situation for a moment. Suppose you work for a company and you buy some shares in it. Soon after that the company, which is profitable, decides that in order to increase its profits it should reduce your pay.
Now you have a dilemma. If you strike to protect your pay the value of your shares might reduce. If, on the other hand, you allow your pay to be reduced without offering any resistance your income for the rest of your career will be threatened and the company will know that they are now free to do what they like to you. What would you do?
Note: before everybody rushes in to say that Aer Lingus has not threatened to reduce the pilots' pay, this is merely a hypothetical situation. Everybody, please feel free to say what you would do.
That's a good point of course. But consider this hypothetical situation for a moment. Suppose you work for a company and you buy some shares in it. Soon after that the company, which is profitable, decides that in order to increase its profits it should reduce your pay.
Now you have a dilemma. If you strike to protect your pay the value of your shares might reduce. If, on the other hand, you allow your pay to be reduced without offering any resistance your income for the rest of your career will be threatened and the company will know that they are now free to do what they like to you. What would you do?
Note: before everybody rushes in to say that Aer Lingus has not threatened to reduce the pilots' pay, this is merely a hypothetical situation. Everybody, please feel free to say what you would do.
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We'll see market forces at woirk of course in the long run.
If the Terms and conditions offered by AL become so bad they will simply get no new applicants applying. It's quite simple, it's an open market and if FR or AL or any airline reduces T's and C's substantially, they won't get any relevant applicants applying for the positions. They will simply go elsewhere.
If the Terms and conditions offered by AL become so bad they will simply get no new applicants applying. It's quite simple, it's an open market and if FR or AL or any airline reduces T's and C's substantially, they won't get any relevant applicants applying for the positions. They will simply go elsewhere.
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Nice one, Dublin Airgirl. Very enjoyable to watch you dismantle CaptKremin 
Reading through the nearly 300 posts in this thread the one thing that comes out loud and clear is the arrogance of those who purport to represent the views of professional pilots. In most cases the only response they can offer is to insult and/or ridicule anyone who puts forward any opinion that differs from theirs.
Tooloose, you are quite right. I would strike if my pay was going to be reduced unless the very existence of my Company was at stake in which case I would have to reconsider. But I would not strike if my Company decides to open a new division in another jurisdiction and employ staff on different terms. Even if those terms were better than mine I would just have to grin and bear it. That's the real world out there in 2007.
Reading through the nearly 300 posts in this thread the one thing that comes out loud and clear is the arrogance of those who purport to represent the views of professional pilots. In most cases the only response they can offer is to insult and/or ridicule anyone who puts forward any opinion that differs from theirs.
Tooloose, you are quite right. I would strike if my pay was going to be reduced unless the very existence of my Company was at stake in which case I would have to reconsider. But I would not strike if my Company decides to open a new division in another jurisdiction and employ staff on different terms. Even if those terms were better than mine I would just have to grin and bear it. That's the real world out there in 2007.
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The focus here is very much on the nitpicking of whether or not DUB pilots are getting the pay reduction. Which, in fact, is what management seek, as they seek to implement their "Programme for Continuous Improvement", which would see a large pay reduction for DUB pilots. Needless to say, the money they seek to take from us in DUB won't be paid to BFS pilots as it stands.
However, the bigger picture is of great importance. It's very simple, new, lower paid bases will eventually do DUB work, the DUB base will stagnate and will become the "overpaid" base, ripe for attack once again. So this situation is very much an attack on our T&Cs. Just because it isn't immediately obvious (well it is if you care to learn the lessons of corporate history) doesn't mean it won't happen.
The ryanair apologists can deny this scenario all they like, but it is exactly what happened to the DUB pilots in ryanair. Could it happen again? Of course.
The airline market doesn't work according to the classic economic models. Ryanair have demonstrated that they can get people regardless of T&C's. Little boys who want to fly will do anything until they realise after a few months that it's not quite what it cracked up to be. By then it's too late. In a career airline, not so much of a problem as people don't move on. In ryanair, big problem as on they go, to be replaced by more naive youngsters. So the experience level and conditions level stay on the floor. That's the competition, who don't value experience. By not standing up, AL will go the same way, dumbing down the profession across the board. Is that what is wanted?
However, the bigger picture is of great importance. It's very simple, new, lower paid bases will eventually do DUB work, the DUB base will stagnate and will become the "overpaid" base, ripe for attack once again. So this situation is very much an attack on our T&Cs. Just because it isn't immediately obvious (well it is if you care to learn the lessons of corporate history) doesn't mean it won't happen.
The ryanair apologists can deny this scenario all they like, but it is exactly what happened to the DUB pilots in ryanair. Could it happen again? Of course.
It's quite simple, it's an open market and if FR or AL or any airline reduces T's and C's substantially, they won't get any relevant applicants applying for the positions.
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According to the website prospective Captains do not have to have any jet experience for Belfast base. 1000 hours command turboprop and away you go, here is a nice new A-320. Makes FR look safe. But that's ok, the "market" said so 
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capt kremin, what i said was how many journalists actually strike, not how many journalists threaten to strike
So for the record, the journalists who balloted over the pension stakes did not strike (and they're the same regional journalists you mention down below), the belfast telegraph journalists are not in teh ROI (though as far as i'm aware they didn't strike either), the RNAI journalists (the regional ones again) didn't strike either, that link you have about the Indo's northern journalists is actually the same dispute as the belfast telegraph and Indo Ireland staff didn't have any industrial action either.
By the way, the NUJ represents hacks in both GB and Ireland, therefore I presume the GB and ROI members of the NUJ supported the strikes by their friends in the Belfast Telegraph (unless their self serving hypocrisy wouldn't stretch even that far!).
you've not provided me with a single example of journalists actually striking here.
I posted this link to a Wikipedia article on the Irish Press strike, where the hacks not only WENT on strike, they actually stayed out for 9 months until the newspaper finally folded! Maybe you'll read it now?
what you've given is a host of duplicated references none of which actually resulted in strike action. another point of clarification is that 127,000 references is a fairly meaningless number, as duplication is rampant on google, and 127,000 references could relate to 127,000 disputes or 10.
so, as you might say yourself "sigh" or "do your homework", or whatever other condascending phrase is de rigeur with you these days. you come on here and present yourself as this judgemental bastion of accuracy, knocking down the contribution of anyone who doesnt' share your (fairly narrow) piont of view. given how critical you are of the press and their lack of research and accuracy, seems bizarre that your own research and arguments are so blatantly factually flawed.
Your argument is clearly the ignorant one.
Are you a journo? If so please note that 'condascending'(sic) has no 'a' in it. Tsk Tsk.
According to the website prospective Captains do not have to have any jet experience for Belfast base. 1000 hours command turboprop and away you go, here is a nice new A-320. Makes FR look safe. But that's ok, the "market" said so
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great post CK.
Ayroplain, tell you what, go through your life grinning and bearing it. My colleagues and I still have a choice. One more time, the industrial action was about the refusal of management to comply with their own freely entered into agreements. The company is not at stake, so keep grinning and keep bearing it because with your own knocked down sense of self worth I'm betting you look like the happiest guy on Earth.
Ayroplain, tell you what, go through your life grinning and bearing it. My colleagues and I still have a choice. One more time, the industrial action was about the refusal of management to comply with their own freely entered into agreements. The company is not at stake, so keep grinning and keep bearing it because with your own knocked down sense of self worth I'm betting you look like the happiest guy on Earth.
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To assume that EI BFS will be devoid of applicants is somewhat naive. Whether they get the correct number of returned contracts is an entirely different matter. Clearly the management are hedging their bets 'just in case' with the turboprop red herring but I very much doubt anybody with 1000hrs left seat prop will get a real look at an A320. There will be a significant number of applicants for these positions because at the end of the day, if the package isn't right you don't have to take it. EI have said nothing on the actual package other than an inference that basic will be circa £77k. the two airbus operations in BFS/BHD don't come cheap. MYT and BMI are full of senior guys on senior money. I don't think EI will be able to match those figures. EZY basic is around £74k but the total package seems closer to £90k depending on bonuses and alike. Does anybody actually know what they are planning with regards to pensions and duty pay etc? Until these figures come out the whole debate is largely meaningless.