Easyjet crews and Revised taxes in Germany?
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Saabdriver - "But itīs for those folks that canīt afford to leave right now (bond or other obligations) that we have to stand up and fight for."
As one of those who can't afford to leave at the moment, I hope that the rest of us can pull together to show more of a sense of responsibility than what our company has shown for us, and help each other out of this quagmire! Even those who leave will find that it may come back to bite them later and it would pay off to find out a solution up front, now, than later alone.
As one of those who can't afford to leave at the moment, I hope that the rest of us can pull together to show more of a sense of responsibility than what our company has shown for us, and help each other out of this quagmire! Even those who leave will find that it may come back to bite them later and it would pay off to find out a solution up front, now, than later alone.
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I am personally not sure about the companys wish to switch to local contracts.
The social costs in Germany are far higher than in the UK (with superior benefits of course)
and presently easyJ itself is not affected by the new tax rule.
The employee pays some more tax than an equivalent pilot in the UK. So what?
Itīs not their problem, so why should they change it ?
Wonīt happen, my guess.
The social costs in Germany are far higher than in the UK (with superior benefits of course)
and presently easyJ itself is not affected by the new tax rule.
The employee pays some more tax than an equivalent pilot in the UK. So what?
Itīs not their problem, so why should they change it ?
Wonīt happen, my guess.
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Not so sure about that!
If I have to pay German taxes, why should I pay for a british social security system furtheron which is not as efficient as the german one(but more expensive, agreed)
At least for the pilots staying longer in Germany, on the long run, it will have more advantages.
Of course, EZY has to pay a higher amount to the german social security.
That is why they are probably not in a hurry at all.
But if so, they will try to bring, what they probably call "market competitive salaries". Interesting times ahead!
If I have to pay German taxes, why should I pay for a british social security system furtheron which is not as efficient as the german one(but more expensive, agreed)
At least for the pilots staying longer in Germany, on the long run, it will have more advantages.
Of course, EZY has to pay a higher amount to the german social security.
That is why they are probably not in a hurry at all.
But if so, they will try to bring, what they probably call "market competitive salaries". Interesting times ahead!
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I've been off the planet for a few days. It seems to me that all of you who thought the non-payment of tax in the past was a loophole are mistaken. You were obliged to pay taxes the moment you set foot in Berlin/Wherever. It was your responsibility to contact the local authorities and begin paying tax as soon as your first pay check arrived. If you are only being asked to pay from Jan. 1st 2007 then consider yourselves very lucky. Even more lucky if you have been there a year or two or maybe even more. As for your German colleagues who have also been benefiting from this situation, if they are exempt all their unpaid taxes from the time they joined EZY I will be most surprised!
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As for your German colleagues who have also been benefiting from this situation, if they are exempt all their unpaid taxes from the time they joined EZY I will be most surprised!
Did you ever here about the "Progressionsvorbehalt" in combination with the double tax agreement?
However, that there is a change now, to pay MORE tax, I agree!
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Conflict of International Law
Taking a step backwards for a moment, conflict of international law can sometimes legally bring about odd results and provide an unexpected beneficial outcome in some quarters.
Others have already commented upon this and potential moral issues.
Whilst I certainly do not seek to moralise perhaps it is inevitable for governments to consider any perceived loophole and for it eventually to be plugged.
If so then it would appear that steps have been taken in this regard to close further at least part of the European Tax Net.
Is this simply another sign of the times leaning towards a revenue driven European or even Global tax Policy?
Or is it just another step in a UK clampdown or even planned fallout from HMRC intervention and prior exchange of information between UK and other European member states over recent years with Aircrew being a part of a much bigger picture?
How and why? -May not help those for whom this change is regarded as either an unwelcome or unexpected imposition, but my guess is that it is most likely here to stay.
Having conducted a brief search on internet it looks as though the important German tax change referred to has been heralded in by the Amendment Tax Act 2007 in Germany?
Or does anyone else have other information on subject?
This appears to me to represent and confirm the new German interpretation of international tax law via the Double Taxation Agreement on the German side. Concerning amongst other aspects, prior exemption of foreign-source income (i.e. salary) being disallowed as an override on the prior take of matters- if it were to result in double non taxation.
Assume that this is the local German tax issue you are all are concerned about within this thread, which will no doubt be considered by many to be an important watershed primarily concerning the element of UK salary not taxed in UK for a Non Resident relating to overseas duties.
Clearly the evolving international tax picture continues to remain fluid in many respects and such changes were also talked about for the French tax interpretation as well, although that appears to have stalled pending further clarification and confirmation from the French which I understand is currently still awaited.
Is it simply a matter of watch this space for other countries?
Surely the best approach is to take regular professional tax advice within all relevant countries in order to ensure that all individual requirements are met.
No change for UK Non Resident concerning basis of UK tax position in respect of UK duties.
However the overall tax position should always be fully considered and settled in accordance with all relevant criteria and if necessary filing in more than one jurisdiction as appropriate.
Only time will tell exactly how the German authorities seek to apply these matters in future on a day to day basis.
Are you prepared to simply wait and see? Who is current group Tax Manager at company Head Office?
Have the company offered any update themselves?
Will they listen and offer consolidated advice or help after a unified approach by employees?
Whilst taxation is a vital factor it is of course only part of the overall equation but in the end no doubt personal decisions will be made and many may consider voting with their feet but the phrase of beware jumping from the frying pan into fire springs to mind so do consider all aspects and ensure that you have full facts before taking any next step.
So can anyone recommend a good German Tax Adviser?
Hope that this is of some help.
DJS
Others have already commented upon this and potential moral issues.
Whilst I certainly do not seek to moralise perhaps it is inevitable for governments to consider any perceived loophole and for it eventually to be plugged.
If so then it would appear that steps have been taken in this regard to close further at least part of the European Tax Net.
Is this simply another sign of the times leaning towards a revenue driven European or even Global tax Policy?
Or is it just another step in a UK clampdown or even planned fallout from HMRC intervention and prior exchange of information between UK and other European member states over recent years with Aircrew being a part of a much bigger picture?
How and why? -May not help those for whom this change is regarded as either an unwelcome or unexpected imposition, but my guess is that it is most likely here to stay.
Having conducted a brief search on internet it looks as though the important German tax change referred to has been heralded in by the Amendment Tax Act 2007 in Germany?
Or does anyone else have other information on subject?
This appears to me to represent and confirm the new German interpretation of international tax law via the Double Taxation Agreement on the German side. Concerning amongst other aspects, prior exemption of foreign-source income (i.e. salary) being disallowed as an override on the prior take of matters- if it were to result in double non taxation.
Assume that this is the local German tax issue you are all are concerned about within this thread, which will no doubt be considered by many to be an important watershed primarily concerning the element of UK salary not taxed in UK for a Non Resident relating to overseas duties.
Clearly the evolving international tax picture continues to remain fluid in many respects and such changes were also talked about for the French tax interpretation as well, although that appears to have stalled pending further clarification and confirmation from the French which I understand is currently still awaited.
Is it simply a matter of watch this space for other countries?
Surely the best approach is to take regular professional tax advice within all relevant countries in order to ensure that all individual requirements are met.
No change for UK Non Resident concerning basis of UK tax position in respect of UK duties.
However the overall tax position should always be fully considered and settled in accordance with all relevant criteria and if necessary filing in more than one jurisdiction as appropriate.
Only time will tell exactly how the German authorities seek to apply these matters in future on a day to day basis.
Are you prepared to simply wait and see? Who is current group Tax Manager at company Head Office?
Have the company offered any update themselves?
Will they listen and offer consolidated advice or help after a unified approach by employees?
Whilst taxation is a vital factor it is of course only part of the overall equation but in the end no doubt personal decisions will be made and many may consider voting with their feet but the phrase of beware jumping from the frying pan into fire springs to mind so do consider all aspects and ensure that you have full facts before taking any next step.
So can anyone recommend a good German Tax Adviser?
Hope that this is of some help.
DJS
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Does anybody know about the implications for employees -NOT-
ordinarily resident in Germany for more than 183 days, e.g. the Belgium or
Dutch pilots who have their life in their respective country normally and who
are just commuting to work in Germany for their blocks of 5 days
a) if they have rented a room or apartment in Germany or
b) staying in a bed-n-breakfast claiming to commute each day ?
Are they obliged to pay tax in Germany ?
Thought if you are here for less than 183 days you are fine ?
Any comments appreciated.
ordinarily resident in Germany for more than 183 days, e.g. the Belgium or
Dutch pilots who have their life in their respective country normally and who
are just commuting to work in Germany for their blocks of 5 days
a) if they have rented a room or apartment in Germany or
b) staying in a bed-n-breakfast claiming to commute each day ?
Are they obliged to pay tax in Germany ?
Thought if you are here for less than 183 days you are fine ?
Any comments appreciated.
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CAT3DUAL
We're still trying to find that out.
As you said: '183 days per year without any interruptions. Excluding short breaks. (e.g. weekends)'
We are not sure whether our 4 days off or a 2 week holiday for example are counted as an 'interruption' by the German taxman. If so, this would solve the problem for the commuters.
Regards
We're still trying to find that out.
As you said: '183 days per year without any interruptions. Excluding short breaks. (e.g. weekends)'
We are not sure whether our 4 days off or a 2 week holiday for example are counted as an 'interruption' by the German taxman. If so, this would solve the problem for the commuters.
Regards
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If you don't want the remaining loopholes to be closed, you better don't discuss this on a public forum
to hide from the authorities or avoiding to pay tax by trying
"not to be there officially", but use the legal framework to its max.
The rules have changed, fine, but if there is some 183day threshold to cross
and my/their residence is somewhere in another (third) country it is really
interesting to know if this affects your final tax liability in Germany.
Last edited by CAT III DUAL; 7th Aug 2007 at 06:44.
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Maybe some guys are now diverting to AIR BERLIN?
http://www.vcockpit.de/presseaktuell.php?artikel=167
In english /roughly)
TOPICAL PRESS RELEASES collaboration between Air Berlin and union cockpit agrees before the background of the progressive concentration processes in the German aviation industry Air Berlin and the union cockpit have ascertained the necessity of a collaboration as a basic condition for the success of the newly developing enterprise structure together. Therefore, both sides have themselves after intensive preliminary talks on the end of a reimbursement and
http://www.vcockpit.de/presseaktuell.php?artikel=167
In english /roughly)
TOPICAL PRESS RELEASES collaboration between Air Berlin and union cockpit agrees before the background of the progressive concentration processes in the German aviation industry Air Berlin and the union cockpit have ascertained the necessity of a collaboration as a basic condition for the success of the newly developing enterprise structure together. Therefore, both sides have themselves after intensive preliminary talks on the end of a reimbursement and
Last edited by Kraut; 7th Aug 2007 at 14:59.
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sarah737, and the rest of you who are clinging to vague hope that keeping your head down and praying will allow things to continue as they were; it won't help! This never was a so called 'loophole'. The general rule has been in place for many years now. That rule is that if you live and work in one country, you will not be taxed in another. The treaties enacted by the OECD did not ever envisage people avoiding tax by simply moving to another country, being classed as non-resident for tax purposes, getting a job and not paying tax. We are all obliged to pay tax if we live and work in the OECD and you are not exempt just because easyjet is based in the UK or RYR in Ireland and you work in Germany etc.
There are no loopholes, there never were any.
Face it and pay up like the rest of us do!
There are no loopholes, there never were any.
Face it and pay up like the rest of us do!
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For someone in Cambs/Herts you take a mighty interest in the (individual!) tax situation of your German colleagues. I hope you attack the current (lousy) pay offer with the same vigor!
Again, don't let jealousy cloud your (socialist) vision...
p.s. I hope you don't claim tax relief for your BALPA membership because you might be regarded as a tax cheater by your own standards! Just pay up! Or are you perhaps not a member?
Again, don't let jealousy cloud your (socialist) vision...
p.s. I hope you don't claim tax relief for your BALPA membership because you might be regarded as a tax cheater by your own standards! Just pay up! Or are you perhaps not a member?
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bokkenrijder, if you read the whole thread you will see that I write here because I have intimate experience of the situation. Some years ago I foolishly tried the same tactic. When I eventually returned to the UK just prior to my planned retirement, I was presented with a self assesment tax form and a letter from my local tax Inspector.
There is no way to fill it in without admitting that you had incomoe abroad and no way to avoid telling them that you have paid no tax on that income.
Result after long and painful negotiatoins; retirement postponed to work full-time to pay the unpaid tax, the penalty (50%extra) and keep my body and soul in one piece, 16 year old car, living in a caravan, no house, no holidays, no extras!
I am not jealous of those in the same position as I was then, I am simply trying to prepare you for the inevitable outcome.
I will finally retire next year to a shed on the beach in Thailand so I am past caring.
There is no way to fill it in without admitting that you had incomoe abroad and no way to avoid telling them that you have paid no tax on that income.
Result after long and painful negotiatoins; retirement postponed to work full-time to pay the unpaid tax, the penalty (50%extra) and keep my body and soul in one piece, 16 year old car, living in a caravan, no house, no holidays, no extras!
I am not jealous of those in the same position as I was then, I am simply trying to prepare you for the inevitable outcome.
I will finally retire next year to a shed on the beach in Thailand so I am past caring.
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OK fair enough, point taken, but let's be honest, every situation/DTT/country is different.
The old system/loophole was accepted by both the Uk and the German tax offices. That loophole has now been closed. OK, again, fair enough so we move on and pay our taxes, or move away.
Case closed?
The old system/loophole was accepted by both the Uk and the German tax offices. That loophole has now been closed. OK, again, fair enough so we move on and pay our taxes, or move away.
Case closed?
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sarah737, and the rest of you who are clinging to vague hope that keeping your head down and praying will allow things to continue as they were; it won't help! This never was a so called 'loophole'. The general rule has been in place for many years now. That rule is that if you live and work in one country, you will not be taxed in another. The treaties enacted by the OECD did not ever envisage people avoiding tax by simply moving to another country, being classed as non-resident for tax purposes, getting a job and not paying tax. We are all obliged to pay tax if we live and work in the OECD and you are not exempt just because easyjet is based in the UK or RYR in Ireland and you work in Germany etc.
There are no loopholes, there never were any.
Face it and pay up like the rest of us do!
There are no loopholes, there never were any.
Face it and pay up like the rest of us do!
What does this mean with respect to domestic legislation. Basically if you are German then you have nothing to worry about when it comes to the past; the law change was made because the Germans accepted that there was this loophole and so shut it down with this change in law. Jan 07 onwards you will of course be paying tax on anything that the UK doesn't tax due to your non-residency status.
If you are from the UK then it will depend; if you are not resident in the UK but in Germany then you MAY be OK; however if you keep a house in the UK, have your family here, send money back here etc then you might have an issue if you haven't been taxing all of your salary here. But if you left the UK and don't intend to come back then you probably won't. If you fall somewhere in between then you should probably take some sort of advice just to make sure that your luck doesn't run out like Rubik's. (And if it does then definitely take some advice from a Tax Investigation Specialist as 50% penalties are virtually unheard of - they can normally be argued down to 10-20% in situations like this - and can be nil if you declare it before the Taxman finds out.)
Finally please don't fall into the trap of thinking that your personal tax treatment should follow that of the company you for; as mentioned above the OECD model treaties really don't cover the modern European aviation environment at the moment and it can take years for these to be rewritten, negotiated and signed.
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Perhaps the UK citizens amongst you might like to take a look at this website.
http://www.inlandrevenuetaxadvice.co.uk/google2/
It may not be exactly right for you if you are employed by EZY or RYR but it does give you some insight into the way HMRC works when dealing with individuals and small businesses.
You might also like to take a look here and note bullet point 6.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTax...urn/DG_4017116
Most important is this page. It explains for instance, that RYR is a UK based company for all tax purposes, however unpleasant that fact might be!
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTax...UK/DG_10026136
Read this and the related pages carefully to see if you are taxable. Chances are, you are, were, and forever will be!
I hope this helps.
p.s. maybe we should open a Tax info thread?
http://www.inlandrevenuetaxadvice.co.uk/google2/
It may not be exactly right for you if you are employed by EZY or RYR but it does give you some insight into the way HMRC works when dealing with individuals and small businesses.
You might also like to take a look here and note bullet point 6.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTax...urn/DG_4017116
Most important is this page. It explains for instance, that RYR is a UK based company for all tax purposes, however unpleasant that fact might be!
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTax...UK/DG_10026136
Read this and the related pages carefully to see if you are taxable. Chances are, you are, were, and forever will be!
I hope this helps.
p.s. maybe we should open a Tax info thread?
Last edited by rubik101; 8th Aug 2007 at 13:49. Reason: link broke!
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By clicking on to these links in Rubiks post above, are you not now effectively showing a RED FLAG? As they are HMRC Websites and surely they will be "Observing" those that are making "Enquiries" ?