Easyjet crews and Revised taxes in Germany?
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Rubik obviously speaks from experience and is right in the main, however there are two issues here - the changed tax situation, and the lack of information given to staff by easyJet.
Firstly as Saabdriver says, the Finanzampt acknowledged the loophole and issued zero returns until now... but from 1 Jan 07, unknown to staff, we have been operating under a changed tax scheme. I fear screaming about it will achieve very little. So we are now into a tax mitigation situation, and each person will have to look at the best way of legally reducing his/her tax bill from 01 Jan. It is not straight forward in many cases and will need good professional advice to optimise the situation in my opinion.
Regarding easyJet deliberately withholding information from staff, it is at best immoral, possibly illegal. I feel that advice should be taken as to whether they had any legal obligation to inform staff of the changed circumstance which they obviously knew about. Indeed they encouraged staff to use the S690 scheme this year without any warnings. Any legal types out there wish to give informed comment on this point?
The reality is that there are many people who are now facing large bills and can't see how to pay them. It's not just the pilots who arguably may have more disposable income!
Firstly as Saabdriver says, the Finanzampt acknowledged the loophole and issued zero returns until now... but from 1 Jan 07, unknown to staff, we have been operating under a changed tax scheme. I fear screaming about it will achieve very little. So we are now into a tax mitigation situation, and each person will have to look at the best way of legally reducing his/her tax bill from 01 Jan. It is not straight forward in many cases and will need good professional advice to optimise the situation in my opinion.
Regarding easyJet deliberately withholding information from staff, it is at best immoral, possibly illegal. I feel that advice should be taken as to whether they had any legal obligation to inform staff of the changed circumstance which they obviously knew about. Indeed they encouraged staff to use the S690 scheme this year without any warnings. Any legal types out there wish to give informed comment on this point?
The reality is that there are many people who are now facing large bills and can't see how to pay them. It's not just the pilots who arguably may have more disposable income!
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Itīs all about Easy Crews ..... Whatīs happening to our friends at hahn and Bremen to whom this law should also apply (or?).
Did MOL find a way out of this one ???
Did MOL find a way out of this one ???
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I doubt it.
MOL is a lot of things, however he's is not a liar when it comes to admitting that he does not care much for his passengers or his employees.
That in sharp contrast to easyJet, who's spin doctors spew out orange bullsh!t on an almost daily basis about establishing a "career airline."
MOL is a lot of things, however he's is not a liar when it comes to admitting that he does not care much for his passengers or his employees.
That in sharp contrast to easyJet, who's spin doctors spew out orange bullsh!t on an almost daily basis about establishing a "career airline."
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Yeah ..... and then they call it a "truly great place to work"
Unfortunately there are a bunch of ignorant people working for the orange liars (namely 82 percent
!!!) that are believing what the bull**** merchants are saying.
Maybe they should do another Pulse survey now ... they might get 2 percent instead ....
Unfortunately there are a bunch of ignorant people working for the orange liars (namely 82 percent
!!!) that are believing what the bull**** merchants are saying.Maybe they should do another Pulse survey now ... they might get 2 percent instead ....
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EU tax laws are perfectly simple and understandable, even for pilots...
If you live and work in the EU then you must pay tax - somewhere in the EU. This may be in your country of residence, or country of employment. One or the other, not neither, not both.
If you are naive enough to imagine that by being paid in Ģ ex UK whilst working in Germany you can bamboozle the tax authorities that you work in Germany so don't need to pay UK tax, and then tell the Germans that you are a UK employee so don't have to pat German tax then you're stacking up a whole load of trouble. Upon your return home when the UK tax office asks you "where have you been for the last x years, and where have you been paying tax?" they will want receipts - proof - that tax was paid elsewhere. If you can't give that they'll typically send a bill for the tax outstanding (pretty grim if you've spent it over the last few years) and then add a punitive charge of often the same again. Else you can go to court, get a Criminal record (ID card implications) and get fined even more.
D'oh!
If you live and work in the EU then you must pay tax - somewhere in the EU. This may be in your country of residence, or country of employment. One or the other, not neither, not both.
If you are naive enough to imagine that by being paid in Ģ ex UK whilst working in Germany you can bamboozle the tax authorities that you work in Germany so don't need to pay UK tax, and then tell the Germans that you are a UK employee so don't have to pat German tax then you're stacking up a whole load of trouble. Upon your return home when the UK tax office asks you "where have you been for the last x years, and where have you been paying tax?" they will want receipts - proof - that tax was paid elsewhere. If you can't give that they'll typically send a bill for the tax outstanding (pretty grim if you've spent it over the last few years) and then add a punitive charge of often the same again. Else you can go to court, get a Criminal record (ID card implications) and get fined even more.
D'oh!
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With all respect: Why do you blame the company for offering the S690 to the employees ?
Everybody knew that this is a legal tax alleviation (!) only and that the final tax liability is up to the individual.
The S690 is a deal between yourself and the IR.
The company only does the paperwork.
You pay less tax initially because you seem to spend only part of your work
in the UK. So the IR is so generous and asks for less tax initially, giving you
a "interest-free" credit initially.
Everybody knows, that there is a "final bill" (tax-declaration) to be done in each year. Or in other words: That is not my final liability!
Only because Germany didnīt want to tax the so far untaxed part of the income NOBODY could assume forever that this would be written in stone!
To be honest, you HAD to expect that this great opportunity would end one day and if you were 5cents clever, you would have kept the tax return for each previous year until the German authorities answered "No, donīt want anything" after your German tax declaration.
Taking the cash all, spending it for different things and now, as you have to pay tax as (almost) everybody else on this planet you are disappointed by the company ?
If you all were so naive to think that this would work (legally) forever, your fault!
Everybody knew that this is a legal tax alleviation (!) only and that the final tax liability is up to the individual.
The S690 is a deal between yourself and the IR.
The company only does the paperwork.
You pay less tax initially because you seem to spend only part of your work
in the UK. So the IR is so generous and asks for less tax initially, giving you
a "interest-free" credit initially.
Everybody knows, that there is a "final bill" (tax-declaration) to be done in each year. Or in other words: That is not my final liability!
Only because Germany didnīt want to tax the so far untaxed part of the income NOBODY could assume forever that this would be written in stone!
To be honest, you HAD to expect that this great opportunity would end one day and if you were 5cents clever, you would have kept the tax return for each previous year until the German authorities answered "No, donīt want anything" after your German tax declaration.
Taking the cash all, spending it for different things and now, as you have to pay tax as (almost) everybody else on this planet you are disappointed by the company ?
If you all were so naive to think that this would work (legally) forever, your fault!
Seems as though taxation in the EU isn't as simple as it first appears. I know pilots living in France, Spain and Italy that pay minimal taxes quite legally. One or two have been investigated by the Special Compliance unit of HMRC with no cases to answer, and their prospective countries seem happy enough as the spend less than the 183 days in the country.
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Hunterboy, don't cloud the issue here. If you really do spend 183 local midnights outside the country, then you might be eligible for some relief. Anyone in the position of EZY or RYR etc most certainly will not qualify for such relief. Time spent flying to another country does not count, only local midnights.
Once again, the issue really is very simple. I have written it before but will repeat it for those of you who skim these threads. Bear in mind that this question is composed by HMRC, not me.
Ask yourself this simple question; am I happy for the tax authorities in the country where I work to know all about my financial arrangements?
If you answer NO, then you are breaking the law in that country.
Simple enough, isn't it?
Once again, the issue really is very simple. I have written it before but will repeat it for those of you who skim these threads. Bear in mind that this question is composed by HMRC, not me.
Ask yourself this simple question; am I happy for the tax authorities in the country where I work to know all about my financial arrangements?
If you answer NO, then you are breaking the law in that country.
Simple enough, isn't it?
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Here is what Net Jets supposively does. Pilots have British contract because the main headquarters(marketing, sales, PR) is in London. Non British resident pilots do not pay taxes in U.K. except for 5% cpt. 9% fo. for national insurance. Non British resident pilots then pay 25% non resident tax in Portugal (because that is were the operations center is). Your own tax authority may then also add some tax on top of that. That depends on the country.
Has anybody heard of this before? Sound familiar?
Just asking here because I know that there are many Germans in Net Jets.
Has anybody heard of this before? Sound familiar?
Just asking here because I know that there are many Germans in Net Jets.
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Ok guys, before we are all carried away ...
It is NOT, repeat NOT about the Germans changing their tax laws. It was a nice goody in the past, but things unfortunately sometimes change.
Itīs a fact and we just have to live with it.
What people are complaining here is company communication.
So, AGAIN, I have no problem with the fact that I have to pay tax somewhere. I also havenīt done a UK return, so the money is still to come and I can fullfill my tax obligation for 2007.
Why we are complaining about easy you ask ....
As an employer they have the obligation to inform its employees about such drastic changes. They have known this since the beginning of the year and left everybody in the dark.
If this would happen at RYR, you wouldnīt expect it to be any different as everybody knows that RYR doesnīt give a rats ass about its people.
Lala land on the other hand tells everybody how great the place is, with the people being the biggest asset, bla bla bla.
There, YES I do expect that some information is passed on to its people.
There are other airlines facing the same changes, and their management has indeed informed its people and have even agreed on a special tax rate for their operation.
Question remains, why easy has informed its people at all. There will be more to come, e.g. increase in NI charges by moving to the German system, followed by local contracts. They, of course, will be a lot ****tier as the current ones, so at the end of the day we will be looking at the underpaid AB drivers who will eventually have a better pay deal then we do
Read my lips guys, it ainīt over yet ...........
It is NOT, repeat NOT about the Germans changing their tax laws. It was a nice goody in the past, but things unfortunately sometimes change.
Itīs a fact and we just have to live with it.
What people are complaining here is company communication.
So, AGAIN, I have no problem with the fact that I have to pay tax somewhere. I also havenīt done a UK return, so the money is still to come and I can fullfill my tax obligation for 2007.
Why we are complaining about easy you ask ....
As an employer they have the obligation to inform its employees about such drastic changes. They have known this since the beginning of the year and left everybody in the dark.
If this would happen at RYR, you wouldnīt expect it to be any different as everybody knows that RYR doesnīt give a rats ass about its people.
Lala land on the other hand tells everybody how great the place is, with the people being the biggest asset, bla bla bla.
There, YES I do expect that some information is passed on to its people.
There are other airlines facing the same changes, and their management has indeed informed its people and have even agreed on a special tax rate for their operation.
Question remains, why easy has informed its people at all. There will be more to come, e.g. increase in NI charges by moving to the German system, followed by local contracts. They, of course, will be a lot ****tier as the current ones, so at the end of the day we will be looking at the underpaid AB drivers who will eventually have a better pay deal then we do
Read my lips guys, it ainīt over yet ...........
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When I incepted this thread I never thought that it would receive as many views or replies as it has. Which goes to show that there was clearly the big elephant roaming the room with most of us trying to ignore it.
To those that it effects then, good luck deciding which way to jump!
Lastly Saabdriver, I would not worry about the AB package, Hunold has been the master of divide and conquer, having AB, DBA, LTU and GMX all working for the same parent and all on differing contracts, some represented and others not, the writing is on the wall.
As more 737s and the future 787s arrive they will be operated by the lowest bidder, in the very same manner airlines like QF ransom off their regional flying to the lowest bidder among wholly owned daughter companies.
On top of that the FR & 4U contracts with dedicated days off allow you to at least plan some days off in advance where the AB guys are regularly positioning all over Germany by air and ground just to cover crew vacancies.
To those that it effects then, good luck deciding which way to jump!
Lastly Saabdriver, I would not worry about the AB package, Hunold has been the master of divide and conquer, having AB, DBA, LTU and GMX all working for the same parent and all on differing contracts, some represented and others not, the writing is on the wall.
As more 737s and the future 787s arrive they will be operated by the lowest bidder, in the very same manner airlines like QF ransom off their regional flying to the lowest bidder among wholly owned daughter companies.
On top of that the FR & 4U contracts with dedicated days off allow you to at least plan some days off in advance where the AB guys are regularly positioning all over Germany by air and ground just to cover crew vacancies.
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However you do it.......pay your taxes!!
Ameliorate the effect as much as is reasonable, then join the rest of the civilised world and PAY YOUR TAXES!
When we see airline executives lining their own pockets at the expense of the workforce we get pretty uptight about it, well you freeloaders are doing exactly the same thing! Just because it is called tax,, instead of share options, performance related bonus or whatever doesn't make it right for fat cat management, and it is not right for you!
GET YOUR HAND IN YOUR POCKET AND PAY YOUR CONTRIBUTION!
Ameliorate the effect as much as is reasonable, then join the rest of the civilised world and PAY YOUR TAXES!
When we see airline executives lining their own pockets at the expense of the workforce we get pretty uptight about it, well you freeloaders are doing exactly the same thing! Just because it is called tax,, instead of share options, performance related bonus or whatever doesn't make it right for fat cat management, and it is not right for you!
GET YOUR HAND IN YOUR POCKET AND PAY YOUR CONTRIBUTION!
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My take on this is the following:
It is a change in personal tax legislation in Germany which was obviously done in order to close a loophole that many crews, including easyJet crews, were able to take advantage of. Taking advantage of this loophole was perfectly legal and you guys seemed to have got away with paying very little tax for a long time - Well Done!!!!
I don't have much knowledge of easyJet but do believe that you guys have ultra high expectations if you think that they should be advising you on taxes - that sort of thing wouldn't happen in the vast majority of companies unless they were regularly moving people earning $1m+ around the world.
Most companies based in the UK wouldn't know anything that was happening in German personal tax legislation (in fact having spoken to a couple of my colleagues who specialise in German personal tax don't know about it (most governments don't like telling people about tax changes unless they are beneficial!)). Not sure how eJ would have found out about it but I do know they have spent lots of money looking at their own tax position across Europe in the last few months so it could have come out of that.
At the end of the day people have to pay tax unless they can afford to spend stupid amounts of money with the people that I work for, and take the risk of annoying the Authorities. If you thought that what you had would last then you were simply be niave. But nevermind - you now get the chance of claiming lots of spurious tax deductions in Germany and somehow getting away with it (which is how things happen there). I seriously advise talking to a German aviation specialist to work out what you can and can't claim - you never know, it may even save you money!
It is a change in personal tax legislation in Germany which was obviously done in order to close a loophole that many crews, including easyJet crews, were able to take advantage of. Taking advantage of this loophole was perfectly legal and you guys seemed to have got away with paying very little tax for a long time - Well Done!!!!
I don't have much knowledge of easyJet but do believe that you guys have ultra high expectations if you think that they should be advising you on taxes - that sort of thing wouldn't happen in the vast majority of companies unless they were regularly moving people earning $1m+ around the world.
Most companies based in the UK wouldn't know anything that was happening in German personal tax legislation (in fact having spoken to a couple of my colleagues who specialise in German personal tax don't know about it (most governments don't like telling people about tax changes unless they are beneficial!)). Not sure how eJ would have found out about it but I do know they have spent lots of money looking at their own tax position across Europe in the last few months so it could have come out of that.
At the end of the day people have to pay tax unless they can afford to spend stupid amounts of money with the people that I work for, and take the risk of annoying the Authorities. If you thought that what you had would last then you were simply be niave. But nevermind - you now get the chance of claiming lots of spurious tax deductions in Germany and somehow getting away with it (which is how things happen there). I seriously advise talking to a German aviation specialist to work out what you can and can't claim - you never know, it may even save you money!
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Well Bengerman
You, as well, are missing the point. We have to pay taxes as of this year and thatīs a fact. You can try to avoid that, but at the end of the day the tax man will always win.
I have accepted that fact and will do what I have to do.
Management at lala land is another thing. THEY HAVE KNOWN THAT FOR A LONG LONG TIME. Some people like a former GM has actually gotten out in due time wiith his parachute.
Anyways, this was only the first step. The big one is still to come......
In about a month or 2, they will drop the local contracts on us (which of course they havenīt even considered, bla bla bla). There you will find a pay reduction of about 10pc, or so followed by a net increase of NI (compared to the UK) and a tax rate that is as well higher than in the UK.
My guess is, we will be looking at a pay cut of about 25pc in addition to the normal UK tax rate.
If you look at the pay then, we will be on the same level as Achims knights (ONLY advantage being the fixed days off). Plus you will be loosing on certain "tax reduced" elements like share options, etc. as then they will be fully taxable according local law.
So, just pay the German tax for this year and when the big one will hit us get your parachute ready or, if you enjoy orange slavery, go for it.
My 5 cents ............ give it a few weeks, and then we shall see if I was right or wrong ...
You, as well, are missing the point. We have to pay taxes as of this year and thatīs a fact. You can try to avoid that, but at the end of the day the tax man will always win.
I have accepted that fact and will do what I have to do.
Management at lala land is another thing. THEY HAVE KNOWN THAT FOR A LONG LONG TIME. Some people like a former GM has actually gotten out in due time wiith his parachute.
Anyways, this was only the first step. The big one is still to come......
In about a month or 2, they will drop the local contracts on us (which of course they havenīt even considered, bla bla bla). There you will find a pay reduction of about 10pc, or so followed by a net increase of NI (compared to the UK) and a tax rate that is as well higher than in the UK.
My guess is, we will be looking at a pay cut of about 25pc in addition to the normal UK tax rate.
If you look at the pay then, we will be on the same level as Achims knights (ONLY advantage being the fixed days off). Plus you will be loosing on certain "tax reduced" elements like share options, etc. as then they will be fully taxable according local law.
So, just pay the German tax for this year and when the big one will hit us get your parachute ready or, if you enjoy orange slavery, go for it.
My 5 cents ............ give it a few weeks, and then we shall see if I was right or wrong ...
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My 5 cents ............ give it a few weeks, and then we shall see if I was right or wrong ...
Absolutly 100% correct Saaby!
I just got in from dinner with a few of the Berlin based easy' crew. I got the whole nine yards about the 5 puppets, the "voice" at the meeting etc etc.
I dont know if legal action is worth it as from the show of hands at the table the amount of CV rishworths and direct have and will recieve in the next few days will go a long way to fill all the AB slots in India and elsewhere!
There wont be anyone left to sign local contracts!
Roll on the 1% strike I say
Absolutly 100% correct Saaby!
I just got in from dinner with a few of the Berlin based easy' crew. I got the whole nine yards about the 5 puppets, the "voice" at the meeting etc etc.
I dont know if legal action is worth it as from the show of hands at the table the amount of CV rishworths and direct have and will recieve in the next few days will go a long way to fill all the AB slots in India and elsewhere!
There wont be anyone left to sign local contracts!
Roll on the 1% strike I say
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My point exactly Int Hog Driver!
I'm not gonna waste any more time to try to explain to people like Bengerman that we have not been cheating tax and that many of us have no problem to pay taxes. It was a nice loophole that now has been closed. I'm gonna spend more time and energy into finding a new job!
The major problem is lack trust in EZY in the way they have probably kept their mouth shut for 7 months to prevent the bases from emptying during the busy (and lucrative!) summer season. EZY can obviously not be trusted, not in the past as events have shown and probably not in the future.
Most folks in the UK let jealousy (a tax loophole) cloud their vision. I just say the following: good luck with your 0,5% p.a. pay increase and DON'T think that something like this will not happen to you. And also, don't forget to pack a toothbrush for those nightstops in DTM and SXF.
I'm not gonna waste any more time to try to explain to people like Bengerman that we have not been cheating tax and that many of us have no problem to pay taxes. It was a nice loophole that now has been closed. I'm gonna spend more time and energy into finding a new job!
The major problem is lack trust in EZY in the way they have probably kept their mouth shut for 7 months to prevent the bases from emptying during the busy (and lucrative!) summer season. EZY can obviously not be trusted, not in the past as events have shown and probably not in the future.
Most folks in the UK let jealousy (a tax loophole) cloud their vision. I just say the following: good luck with your 0,5% p.a. pay increase and DON'T think that something like this will not happen to you. And also, don't forget to pack a toothbrush for those nightstops in DTM and SXF.
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Well, hope the UK jockeys don't have to do too many nightstops over here ......
Otherwise they will be considered for habitual abode and have to pay taxes here ....hahaha
Otherwise they will be considered for habitual abode and have to pay taxes here ....hahaha
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if the german contracts will be similar to the spain ones ,
with the german tax,good night!!!
I'll wait untill I don't have to pay the bond any more and then...
ciao
hm
with the german tax,good night!!!
I'll wait untill I don't have to pay the bond any more and then...
ciao
hm
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Well Hans, it certainly wonīt be any better than the spanish or UK ones .. they will propably be a lot worth and theyīll try to justify it with the lower RPI and the lower cost of living, etc, etc .......
But itīs for those folks that canīt afford to leave right now (bond or other obligations) that we have to stand up and fight for.
And who knows, maybe one day the real management will crawl out of their hide-outs and show up to take the stand ....
But itīs for those folks that canīt afford to leave right now (bond or other obligations) that we have to stand up and fight for.
And who knows, maybe one day the real management will crawl out of their hide-outs and show up to take the stand ....