Got a negative reply from Thomson
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personally, I would laugh and leave if asked to do any of that rubbish today.
For the wannabes: all airlines have hoops to jump through. Its a fact of life. No point whinging about it on PPRUNE. In FACT, some airlines dont even give feedback. So at least now you know where you need to concentrate your efforts for this particular company if you choose to apply again.
Good luck.
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Wheres that damn spell cheker!
Generally, people get told to apply again in 12 months, so it pays to do your home work b4 the 1 Stage.
Having worked for Brits and Thomsonfly for 10 years, I would throughly recommend it
As for GRO.... a bad day at the office no doubt! But it is not the only Charter airline to have an accident. Monarch - POP, F.Choice - IBZ, etc etc.
Generally, people get told to apply again in 12 months, so it pays to do your home work b4 the 1 Stage.
Having worked for Brits and Thomsonfly for 10 years, I would throughly recommend it
As for GRO.... a bad day at the office no doubt! But it is not the only Charter airline to have an accident. Monarch - POP, F.Choice - IBZ, etc etc.
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Guys, Mr Dogma is giving you some insight on how his company's system works, take it for what its worth. Its not rocket science just an employment test that every company uses in some manor or another.Not a company around with any kind of standard that doesn't use a test or exam of some type.
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No the student in debt is correct, and it was resuable after the event. However it wasn't MON and perhaps the accusitor would get a better grasp of his facts as well as his spell checker.
Airtours B757 incident at POP 1998:
http://aviation-safety.net/database/...0101-0&lang=nl
http://aviation-safety.net/database/...0101-0&lang=nl
QWERTYUIOP,
I'm not British -but having flown for a couple of English speaking companies and still fly in one with many foreigners I have to say you & I are on equal terms in Europe.
With JAR you can apply for jobs in all JAR contries just like me. In the UK & Ireland the airlines require you to speak English before they will even look at you for a potential employment.
In other european companies they require you to speak their language which is only fair.
As a Brit that's where you are having difficulties as you Brits normally don't speak other languages than English.
So if you are dying for a job in Germany, Scandinavia, Italy etc well start taking some lessons in the relevant language course and I'm sure they will look at you too.
I'm not British -but having flown for a couple of English speaking companies and still fly in one with many foreigners I have to say you & I are on equal terms in Europe.
With JAR you can apply for jobs in all JAR contries just like me. In the UK & Ireland the airlines require you to speak English before they will even look at you for a potential employment.
In other european companies they require you to speak their language which is only fair.
As a Brit that's where you are having difficulties as you Brits normally don't speak other languages than English.
So if you are dying for a job in Germany, Scandinavia, Italy etc well start taking some lessons in the relevant language course and I'm sure they will look at you too.
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The whole point of speaking English is to keep communication to an INTERNATIONAL standard....
Under ICAO, ALL ATC communication should be in ENGLISH!!!
I think many people are missing the point here, yes if you fly over France they speak French, but under ICAO they shouldn't!!! Flying into CDG is a little fraught at the best of times, which is only compounded by aircraft in the vicinity communicating in French, which can lead to you as a crew losing your spatial awareness.....
If you can't speak English, you shouldn't be flying in ICAO member states, and if that means you don't get that dream job, maybe you should be looking for a career where your mother tongue is spoken.
Under ICAO, ALL ATC communication should be in ENGLISH!!!
I think many people are missing the point here, yes if you fly over France they speak French, but under ICAO they shouldn't!!! Flying into CDG is a little fraught at the best of times, which is only compounded by aircraft in the vicinity communicating in French, which can lead to you as a crew losing your spatial awareness.....
If you can't speak English, you shouldn't be flying in ICAO member states, and if that means you don't get that dream job, maybe you should be looking for a career where your mother tongue is spoken.
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From Dogma, post #12.
However, the information on the type of relitively basic maths questions are available on the internet and on this sight.
Dogma: Yet another empty HR suit. And so it goes.
CAT 1 reversion,
I don't know if your post was referred to me. What I mean by my previous post is that you British might not be on the no.1 list for hiring in say Finland because you don't speak Finnish. I agree all ATC communication and checklists etc. should be made in English which I'm sure happens all over EU (except certain French, Itallian & Spanish carriers
) but I do think it's okay for the airline to require you speak their national language if your employed there.
Look at KLM & Transavia they require too that you have to learn Dutch if you get a job with them.
I guess us foreigners are just really lucky in having to learn different languages early from school as we don't have an international language as our mother tongue
I don't know if your post was referred to me. What I mean by my previous post is that you British might not be on the no.1 list for hiring in say Finland because you don't speak Finnish. I agree all ATC communication and checklists etc. should be made in English which I'm sure happens all over EU (except certain French, Itallian & Spanish carriers
) but I do think it's okay for the airline to require you speak their national language if your employed there.Look at KLM & Transavia they require too that you have to learn Dutch if you get a job with them.
I guess us foreigners are just really lucky in having to learn different languages early from school as we don't have an international language as our mother tongue
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TFC,
I do agree with you. My point is, like you say, if you go for a job in say Sweden, it is a distinct advantage to speak Swedish. Same applies with most carriers in the UK. If you come for an interview and can barely speak English, you can't expect to get the job.
With JAA, the "European Licence", we the pilots are able to apply for any flying position without (or at least in the UK) prejudice to what your mother tongue is. Unfortunately, most, or a lot of UK educated pilots probably didn't get to learn another language fluently. This in its self has dissadvantaged UK pilots, so like you say, we would have to learn, say for instance, German if we wished to fly for Lufthansa. Not really feasable for most.
Now a European pilot whom has been lucky enough to be educated and fluent in English, should, and if you look at most UK operators, do get jobs over here! I fly with Dutch, German, Portugese, Spanish, French, Italian etc.. pilots, but when asked to why they don't get jobs in their home countries, its usually because they can't, so they come to the UK, get that first job, work here for a few years then dissapear back home to work for their flag carrier.
The biggest injustice to all this is is that there are many UK pilots whom can't get work because there are Europen pilots whom are taking UK jobs, and in most cases willing to pay for the privilage! They can't get a job in Germany, France, Sweden etc...because they speak English, the ICAO Standard language!!!!!!
If you come here for a career, good luck to you. If you come here to gain experience good luck to you. If you come here and expect a job because you have a pilots licence and speak English, you may be in for a surprise.
O'Leary led the way, so blame him!!!!!!!!!!!!
I do agree with you. My point is, like you say, if you go for a job in say Sweden, it is a distinct advantage to speak Swedish. Same applies with most carriers in the UK. If you come for an interview and can barely speak English, you can't expect to get the job.
With JAA, the "European Licence", we the pilots are able to apply for any flying position without (or at least in the UK) prejudice to what your mother tongue is. Unfortunately, most, or a lot of UK educated pilots probably didn't get to learn another language fluently. This in its self has dissadvantaged UK pilots, so like you say, we would have to learn, say for instance, German if we wished to fly for Lufthansa. Not really feasable for most.
Now a European pilot whom has been lucky enough to be educated and fluent in English, should, and if you look at most UK operators, do get jobs over here! I fly with Dutch, German, Portugese, Spanish, French, Italian etc.. pilots, but when asked to why they don't get jobs in their home countries, its usually because they can't, so they come to the UK, get that first job, work here for a few years then dissapear back home to work for their flag carrier.
The biggest injustice to all this is is that there are many UK pilots whom can't get work because there are Europen pilots whom are taking UK jobs, and in most cases willing to pay for the privilage! They can't get a job in Germany, France, Sweden etc...because they speak English, the ICAO Standard language!!!!!!
If you come here for a career, good luck to you. If you come here to gain experience good luck to you. If you come here and expect a job because you have a pilots licence and speak English, you may be in for a surprise.
O'Leary led the way, so blame him!!!!!!!!!!!!
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"Under ICAO, ALL ATC communication should be in ENGLISH!!!"
As long as I know ,english is recommanded in ATC communications, not mandatory.
As long as I know ,english is recommanded in ATC communications, not mandatory.
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rduarte,
You are indeed factually correct, although it is widely accepted that the majority of International flights in Europe are generally handled in English, and ICAO are trying to implement this throughout its member states.(SEE BELOW)
There are many good reasons why a standard language for pilots should apply, and as already said, English is already widely accepted as that language. Accidents such as:
Tenerife, March 1977
As a KLM 747 started its take off from Tenerife airport, air traffic control (ATC) gave instructions for its flight path. The pilot misunderstood the instructions and thought he had received clearance. His response included "we are now at take off". This was in turn misunderstood by ATC, and the KLM 747 collided with a Pan American 747 still on the runway.
New York, US, January 1990
An Avianca Boeing 707 en route from Medellin in Colombia to New York's JFK airport was put into a holding pattern while awaiting permission to land. The plane was low on fuel but the crew was unable to communicate the urgency of the low fuel situation to ATC. Due to bad weather the crew had to abort an attempted landing and soon afterwards fuel ran out. The plane crashed into woods killing 73 out of 158 passengers and crew. Cali, Colombia, December 1995
An American Airlines plane, travelling from Miami, crashed into a mountain while descending into Cali, Colombia, killing 163 passengers and crew. The air traffic controller told investigators he knew information given by the flight crew was inconsistent with the instructions he had issued. If the controller had shared a common language with the pilot he would have been able to seek clarification from the crew.
may have been prevented if a standard language was adopted.
Hopefully countries such as France will one day adopt a united language. Air France, did try to impose an English-only policy at Charles de Gaulle airport, following an accident in 2000. Air France had had long-standing concerns about confusion of French and English air traffic control instructions at the airport, but in spite of these, the initiative was abandoned after a few weeks in the face of national opposition.
Behind this reticence is an admission that many countries will view this as a first step to English being made the mandatory language for all ground-to-air communication. The ICAO has so far avoided confrontation over a single language by adhering to a very vague convention. This recommends that English should be used as the default language only if communication cannot be conducted in the language normally used by the ground station.
BUT THINGS ARE ABOUT TO CHANGE:
http://www.rmitenglishworldwide.com/icao.html
"In September 2003 the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO), a division within the United Nations, announced changes to provisions strengthening language proficiency requirements. These requirements will come into effect from March 2008. These changes mean that for the first time, all pilots operating on international routes and all air traffic controllers who communicate with foreign pilots will need to have their English language proficiency formally assessed. The ICAO language proficiency requirement requires that pilots and air traffic controllers be able to communicate proficiently using both ICAO phraseology (ICAO Doc. 9832) and plain English (ICAO Doc. 9835)."
The tide is turning!
You are indeed factually correct, although it is widely accepted that the majority of International flights in Europe are generally handled in English, and ICAO are trying to implement this throughout its member states.(SEE BELOW)
There are many good reasons why a standard language for pilots should apply, and as already said, English is already widely accepted as that language. Accidents such as:
Tenerife, March 1977
As a KLM 747 started its take off from Tenerife airport, air traffic control (ATC) gave instructions for its flight path. The pilot misunderstood the instructions and thought he had received clearance. His response included "we are now at take off". This was in turn misunderstood by ATC, and the KLM 747 collided with a Pan American 747 still on the runway.
New York, US, January 1990
An Avianca Boeing 707 en route from Medellin in Colombia to New York's JFK airport was put into a holding pattern while awaiting permission to land. The plane was low on fuel but the crew was unable to communicate the urgency of the low fuel situation to ATC. Due to bad weather the crew had to abort an attempted landing and soon afterwards fuel ran out. The plane crashed into woods killing 73 out of 158 passengers and crew. Cali, Colombia, December 1995
An American Airlines plane, travelling from Miami, crashed into a mountain while descending into Cali, Colombia, killing 163 passengers and crew. The air traffic controller told investigators he knew information given by the flight crew was inconsistent with the instructions he had issued. If the controller had shared a common language with the pilot he would have been able to seek clarification from the crew.
may have been prevented if a standard language was adopted.
Hopefully countries such as France will one day adopt a united language. Air France, did try to impose an English-only policy at Charles de Gaulle airport, following an accident in 2000. Air France had had long-standing concerns about confusion of French and English air traffic control instructions at the airport, but in spite of these, the initiative was abandoned after a few weeks in the face of national opposition.
Behind this reticence is an admission that many countries will view this as a first step to English being made the mandatory language for all ground-to-air communication. The ICAO has so far avoided confrontation over a single language by adhering to a very vague convention. This recommends that English should be used as the default language only if communication cannot be conducted in the language normally used by the ground station.
BUT THINGS ARE ABOUT TO CHANGE:
http://www.rmitenglishworldwide.com/icao.html
"In September 2003 the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO), a division within the United Nations, announced changes to provisions strengthening language proficiency requirements. These requirements will come into effect from March 2008. These changes mean that for the first time, all pilots operating on international routes and all air traffic controllers who communicate with foreign pilots will need to have their English language proficiency formally assessed. The ICAO language proficiency requirement requires that pilots and air traffic controllers be able to communicate proficiently using both ICAO phraseology (ICAO Doc. 9832) and plain English (ICAO Doc. 9835)."
The tide is turning!
F.Choice - IBZ" ?, pray do tell more
To be fair it was Leisure International rather than First Choice.
About the accident in CDG it was the "fault" of the english pilot who try to communicate in french with the ATC instead of english.
Last edited by StudentInDebt; 30th Apr 2007 at 23:09.
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XL5 - Sorry to have offended u'r Engerlish sensitivity. I should given less wait to sports field and more to the library!
To the rest of you.....I got in and have not looked back, it's all about preparation
To the rest of you.....I got in and have not looked back, it's all about preparation
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Job hunting at Thompsonfly
Dont worry they were like that back in 1979,when most if not all Pilots Were Brits.I had left the Grey Funnel Line with only 2500 hours.By the time I had the shiny new green licence,my 5 job interviews had been whittled down to one-Britannia.Ted Barff was the Chief Piolt then ,and asked me if I had grown up yet,because my logbooks showed lots of upside down time,but I had passed.!!!By November of that year,I was waiting for the Course date,when it was suggested by a Mate that I contact them.This I did,to be told,"Had I not received my letter,Oh dear,well Hamble has closed and we are going to take 21 year old Hamsters instead of 16/38 Cat Candidates."Even in those days they did not like Aircraft Handlers,but preferred system monitors.With the now common 3rd level Airliners,Computer game skills are all that is needed I feel.I am glad I am out of it,and would hate to look at 35 years more of biting the bullet,or to coin the phrase-shovel sxxt uphill .