Ahead of the game: Ryanair pilots want same wages as Aer Lingus
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Ahead of the game: Ryanair pilots want same wages as Aer Lingus
From RTE:
http://www.rte.ie/business/2006/1009/ryanair.html
Pilots in Ryanair have lodged a pay claim with the Labour Relations Commission in an attempt to bring their salaries closer to their Aer Lingus counterparts.
The pilots claim that Ryanair's bid to take over Aer Lingus strengthens their case for a closer alignment of pay and conditions.
The pay claim was rejected by the company last month, according to the IMPACT trade union. Its officials have now lodged the claim with the LRC under the Industrial Relations Act which permits the Labour Court to set terms and conditions where companies do not engage in collective bargaining.
IMPACT officials claimed there were significant differences in take home pay between Ryanair and Aer Lingus pilots. Michael Landers also claimed that Ryanair training pilots were working for nothing.
This evening Ryanair said the jurisdiction of the Labour Relations Commission was currently subject to a Supreme Court ruling. The company dismissed the claim as a 'feeble attempt' to distract from Ryanair's take over bid for Aer Lingus.
The airline also disputed claims that Ryanair pilots are paid less than those in Aer Lingus.
'Ryanair pilots would have to take a pay cut to align themselves with their equivalent opposite numbers in Aer Lingus,' a statement from the airline said.
Training captains working for free? I can´t believe that
Brgds.
http://www.rte.ie/business/2006/1009/ryanair.html
Pilots in Ryanair have lodged a pay claim with the Labour Relations Commission in an attempt to bring their salaries closer to their Aer Lingus counterparts.
The pilots claim that Ryanair's bid to take over Aer Lingus strengthens their case for a closer alignment of pay and conditions.
The pay claim was rejected by the company last month, according to the IMPACT trade union. Its officials have now lodged the claim with the LRC under the Industrial Relations Act which permits the Labour Court to set terms and conditions where companies do not engage in collective bargaining.
IMPACT officials claimed there were significant differences in take home pay between Ryanair and Aer Lingus pilots. Michael Landers also claimed that Ryanair training pilots were working for nothing.
This evening Ryanair said the jurisdiction of the Labour Relations Commission was currently subject to a Supreme Court ruling. The company dismissed the claim as a 'feeble attempt' to distract from Ryanair's take over bid for Aer Lingus.
The airline also disputed claims that Ryanair pilots are paid less than those in Aer Lingus.
'Ryanair pilots would have to take a pay cut to align themselves with their equivalent opposite numbers in Aer Lingus,' a statement from the airline said.
Training captains working for free? I can´t believe that
Brgds.
Hi Walter S.,
I think the guy is referring to how FR newbies are not paid during their sim/line training, which is a minimum of six months (surely an industry record) long and usually more.It's said that there are FR pilots still not in receipt of ANY pay for at least nine months, because they are on "training" contracts.Quite how this has evaded the Republic's labour laws is lost on me...
regards
TDD
I think the guy is referring to how FR newbies are not paid during their sim/line training, which is a minimum of six months (surely an industry record) long and usually more.It's said that there are FR pilots still not in receipt of ANY pay for at least nine months, because they are on "training" contracts.Quite how this has evaded the Republic's labour laws is lost on me...
regards
TDD
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Guys and Girls.....
with regarding to realignment of wages etc ... can someone answer me this first of all to see really how good/bad the situation has got;
take a candidate who goes for the assessment with Ryanair, everything is great, typical 250hr CPL ME/IR; they are really impressed with this candidate and want him to fly for RYR. Someone tell me this, when does this person begin to receive their first penny from the airline, and how long of a period does this candidate go WITHOUT any income. These Type Ratings on the 737-800 etc paid personally by the candidate themselves or is it bonded over the upcoming employment with RYR??
How does this compare with other operators, are they as bad as each other
Regards
HighLow
with regarding to realignment of wages etc ... can someone answer me this first of all to see really how good/bad the situation has got;
take a candidate who goes for the assessment with Ryanair, everything is great, typical 250hr CPL ME/IR; they are really impressed with this candidate and want him to fly for RYR. Someone tell me this, when does this person begin to receive their first penny from the airline, and how long of a period does this candidate go WITHOUT any income. These Type Ratings on the 737-800 etc paid personally by the candidate themselves or is it bonded over the upcoming employment with RYR??
How does this compare with other operators, are they as bad as each other
Regards
HighLow
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I started the type course with ryanair as that 250 hour cadet around three months ago, I received my first pay two weeks ago, which was backdated to my base check. I am now line checked and on half sector pay on top of the very basic salary they pay to start. Pretty similar to the figures on ppjn.com. I never 'worked' for free but I did train entirely out of my own pocket!
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thanks richarjm for the info....one quick question, the type course itself was paid upfront by yourself or is it bonded over a few years, how much was the recent type course..
rgds
highlow
rgds
highlow
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If you are interested in learning about pilot employment with Ryanair have a look at this for an assessment (see post number 7) http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=214074
There is an updated version of this for which I don't have link. The updated version suggests that some pilots have been without pay for many, many months while awaiting the convenience of Ryanair after paying upfront for their rating. I think richarjm did rather well, based on what the low-time people have told me in the past (admittedly that was a few months ago).
There is an updated version of this for which I don't have link. The updated version suggests that some pilots have been without pay for many, many months while awaiting the convenience of Ryanair after paying upfront for their rating. I think richarjm did rather well, based on what the low-time people have told me in the past (admittedly that was a few months ago).
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Ha!
Never mind pay, I wonder when the senior Ryanair folks will start demanding the Aer Lingus long-haul routes/aircraft.
After all, Ryanair is the 'acquiring airline.'
THEN they can discuss pay.
This scenario should be fun watching....
Never mind pay, I wonder when the senior Ryanair folks will start demanding the Aer Lingus long-haul routes/aircraft.
After all, Ryanair is the 'acquiring airline.'
THEN they can discuss pay.
This scenario should be fun watching....
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The type course was in the region of £20k plus travel and accomodation for either SAS Stockholm or CAE Amsterdam. Certainly in my case fair play to Ryanair, they did exactly what they promised to do, so I, personally, can't complain. Others may have had different experiences. The chaps I started with are now all in roughly the same position. There does seem to be a real movement towards TRYING to keep people as happy as they can within the company. In such a large company with so many staff it won't happen every time though. Sorry if the posts I've made are more terms and endearments, just wanted to answer the question.
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I've got to agree with richarjm.
I past my Ryanair sim check in May, was on the induction course at the end of May and 737 type rating started 2nd week in June. 6 days after the type rating was complete, I was base checked. 5 days after I was base checked, line training started.
There were 16 guys on my type rating course, all of whom have experienced the same speedy transition from type training to line training.
In getting people through they're training and on line, Ryanair do seem to have ironed out any problems they were having in the past. That would certainly appear to be true for the majority of new starters with the company recently.
Having seen the proposals that are going to go before the Labour Commission, I have to say I am in complete agreement with them. Ryanair trainees are paid a miserly salary (equivalent to 12k euros per annum) until the completion of line training. At the completion of line training, they then get a contract (slightly improved SO's salary) and half sector pay for six months from the date of your line check.
The proposals being put forward (If agreed/case won in court) are to be back dated since before I joined FR meaning there's a cash windfall in the pipeline!!
Joining Ryanair and ending up with Aer Lingus T & C's is something I never expected and to be completely honest can't see happening. I am however praying.......................
I past my Ryanair sim check in May, was on the induction course at the end of May and 737 type rating started 2nd week in June. 6 days after the type rating was complete, I was base checked. 5 days after I was base checked, line training started.
There were 16 guys on my type rating course, all of whom have experienced the same speedy transition from type training to line training.
In getting people through they're training and on line, Ryanair do seem to have ironed out any problems they were having in the past. That would certainly appear to be true for the majority of new starters with the company recently.
Having seen the proposals that are going to go before the Labour Commission, I have to say I am in complete agreement with them. Ryanair trainees are paid a miserly salary (equivalent to 12k euros per annum) until the completion of line training. At the completion of line training, they then get a contract (slightly improved SO's salary) and half sector pay for six months from the date of your line check.
The proposals being put forward (If agreed/case won in court) are to be back dated since before I joined FR meaning there's a cash windfall in the pipeline!!
Joining Ryanair and ending up with Aer Lingus T & C's is something I never expected and to be completely honest can't see happening. I am however praying.......................
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Hey let me tell you... long haul flying is like marriage. The two are very highly overrated... IMHO... of course. Once they get into it... they'll try to find a way out without to much pain.
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Asleep at the wheel,
I think you may have a valid point. With MOL's history and very clear dislike of EI one must wonder the true motive behind FR's offer to buy EI. The bottom line with him is the balance sheet and EI would certainly bring an additional few euros to the table. Especially if it was broken up.
Additionally, what would this mean for IALPA? It's a well known fact that MOL and Ryanair refuse to recognise trade unions of any description. If FR do aquire EI, where would this leave the EI Drivers and their contracts? If you're an EI driver this is a pretty worrying time because FR have the financial clout to acquire EI and have made their intentions known. Interesting times ahead indeed!
I think you may have a valid point. With MOL's history and very clear dislike of EI one must wonder the true motive behind FR's offer to buy EI. The bottom line with him is the balance sheet and EI would certainly bring an additional few euros to the table. Especially if it was broken up.
Additionally, what would this mean for IALPA? It's a well known fact that MOL and Ryanair refuse to recognise trade unions of any description. If FR do aquire EI, where would this leave the EI Drivers and their contracts? If you're an EI driver this is a pretty worrying time because FR have the financial clout to acquire EI and have made their intentions known. Interesting times ahead indeed!
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With MOL's history and very clear dislike of EI one must wonder the true motive behind FR's offer to buy EI. T
The deal failed over an offer approx 5 million pounds less than would have been accepted at the time ....
Aer Lingus went on to become a 1.5 (ish) Billion Euro company ..... and Ryanair something around the 7 billion mark ....
It's a funny old world ....
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Bonernow MOL was emphatic that he would accept Trade Unions in Aer Lingus "because that was what their employees want" just as he did not accept Trade Unions for Ryanair pilots "because they have made it clear they wish to deal directly with the company".
MOL has not always told the truth in the past - and lest a moderator be concerned at an unsupported assertion like this, may I remind everyone of the finding of the High Court judge in the 1 millionth passenger case.
As is always the case, MOL and Ryanair have said enough words to claim anything they want in the future. But for the moment MOL says unions are O.K. if the employees want them.
I see nobody has posted the article in today's Irish Times about Ryanair "Something Rotten in Ryanair". That makes for interesting reading, especially if you are trying to work out what makes Ryanair tick.
MOL has not always told the truth in the past - and lest a moderator be concerned at an unsupported assertion like this, may I remind everyone of the finding of the High Court judge in the 1 millionth passenger case.
As is always the case, MOL and Ryanair have said enough words to claim anything they want in the future. But for the moment MOL says unions are O.K. if the employees want them.
I see nobody has posted the article in today's Irish Times about Ryanair "Something Rotten in Ryanair". That makes for interesting reading, especially if you are trying to work out what makes Ryanair tick.
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Hobie, how have you worked out that RYR is worth 7 Billion Euro? 
You have to have assets to be worth that type of money. As we all know RYR leases it's aircraft so I don't understand how it could be worth that type of money. 3-4 Billion but not 7.
The other assets the company have is it's staff and maybe the HQ. I don't think the HQ is worth the extra 3-4 Billion though
, so the rest of the valuation must be the staff that work for the company then. 
You have to have assets to be worth that type of money. As we all know RYR leases it's aircraft so I don't understand how it could be worth that type of money. 3-4 Billion but not 7.
The other assets the company have is it's staff and maybe the HQ. I don't think the HQ is worth the extra 3-4 Billion though
, so the rest of the valuation must be the staff that work for the company then.
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Valuations
how have you worked out that RYR is worth 7 Billion Euro?
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For clarity, capitalisation is what the company is worth, ie. the value of all the shares added together at today's market value. This is not really directly related to the assets, since the value of assets means very little until you take into account liabilities, and maybe goodwill as well. Further, what a company is worth may not be the same as what someone is willing to pay to buy it - many buyers will pay a premium to book value because they think its future revenues are worth the upfront additional investment. But - to return to the key point - there is a huge difference between a company's assets and its capitalisation/what it is "worth".
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This is what awaits those who wish to work as a professional pilot in Ireland. Read it and weep, and if you can, think about finding a new career before this bull$hit "career" ruins you completely:
Something rotten in Ryanair
There has been an analogy made in some quarters that Ryanair's bid to take over Aer Lingus represents a battle between the old and the new Ireland, writes Mary Raftery
Aer Lingus is predictably cast as the "old" - backward, union-ridden, inefficient, monolithic. Ryanair is the people's champion, the breaker of monopolies, forward-looking, flexible, focused on profit and proud of it.
However, to those who are happy to identify with Ryanair as typifying the new Ireland, the comments of Mr Justice Thomas Smyth in the High Court during the summer might come as a sharp shock.
"There are occasions," he said, "of which this is regretfully I think the second in my career as a judge I have had to do so, to say things that I found extremely difficult but which could not be left unsaid."
Ryanair had gone to the High Court alleging that pilots were being bullied and intimidated by their pro-trade union colleagues. The case was taken against the trade unions Impact, IALPA and BALPA (the Irish and British airline pilots associations). The bullying pilots were hiding behind aliases on a chat website, Ryanair claimed, and the court should order their true identities be revealed.
Instead, in an unusually perfect example of being hoist by one's own petard, it was Ryanair itself which was found to be the bully.
The background is as follows: in 2004, Ryanair was in the process of switching its aircraft from Boeing 737-200s to the more up-to-date 737-800s, and pilots needed to be retrained on the newer planes.
Ryanair wrote to all its pilots on November 12th, 2004, informing them that the company would refund them the training costs (€15,000) only if certain conditions were met. One of these was that should "Ryanair be compelled to engage in collective bargaining with any pilot association or trade union within five years of commencement of your conversion training, then you will be liable to repay the full training costs".
The letter's next sentence is an example of the famous Ryanair cheekiness which we all, for some unfathomable reason, appear to find so endearing. The pilots were told that "naturally this does not and will not affect your right to freely join any trade union or association of your choice."
Mr Justice Smyth was scathing about this. Describing it as "a Hobson's choice", he said it was "both irrational and unjust" that a pilot "through no act or default on his part could suffer the loss of €15,000". He added: "In my judgment this is a most onerous condition and bears all the hallmarks of oppression."
Pilots were understandably aggrieved by this condition. Ryanair management tried to discover what they were saying to each other on their website. Apparently supplied with a password by someone described by Mr Justice Smyth variously as a traitor, informer, Iscariot or Iago, the company infiltrated the website, and then took its court action to discover the identities of pilots who signed themselves "cantfly-wontfly" and "ihateryanair".
The judge found that there was no evidence of any bullying or intimidation of pilots by their colleagues on the website. He found wholly against Ryanair, and ordered the company to pay the costs of the seven-day action, estimated to be about €1 million.
He specifically found that the evidence of two senior members of Ryanair staff was "baseless and false". He judged that the real purpose of the company in investigating the pilots' website "was to break whatever resolve there might have been amongst the captains to seek better terms." He further stated that the decision to involve the Garda Síochána was unwarranted and had "all the hallmarks of action in terrorem" (ie designed to terrify).
Mr Justice Smyth took two hours to deliver his 65-page judgment last July. His further characterisations of the actions of Ryanair include the following: "despotic indifference", "sneering disregard", "facade of concern", "unburdened by integrity".
Justice Smyth concluded that "without hesitation, I find as a fact that ... 'fairness' did not seem to come into the reckoning of the plaintiff [ Ryanair] in its dealings with the defendants on the issues raised in and by this case. In summary, in the words of Isabella in Measure for Measure Act II.2: 'Oh, it is excellent to have a giant's strength; but it is tyrannous to use it like a giant'."
It is important to remember that these are not the views of disgruntled Ryanair employees, or of passengers fed up by all the hidden charges on top of the airline's flight costs. It is, rather, an insight into the culture of Ryanair from an impeccably authoritative source, a judge of the land dispassionately and impartially considering the facts as laid before him.
It begs an important question. Do we really wish to equate the kind of values defined by Mr Justice Smyth with the "new" Ireland? Are we happy that a company which engages in activities so roundly condemned by the judge should stand for us as an emblem of what we wish and hope our society to become?
© The Irish Times
Something rotten in Ryanair
There has been an analogy made in some quarters that Ryanair's bid to take over Aer Lingus represents a battle between the old and the new Ireland, writes Mary Raftery
Aer Lingus is predictably cast as the "old" - backward, union-ridden, inefficient, monolithic. Ryanair is the people's champion, the breaker of monopolies, forward-looking, flexible, focused on profit and proud of it.
However, to those who are happy to identify with Ryanair as typifying the new Ireland, the comments of Mr Justice Thomas Smyth in the High Court during the summer might come as a sharp shock.
"There are occasions," he said, "of which this is regretfully I think the second in my career as a judge I have had to do so, to say things that I found extremely difficult but which could not be left unsaid."
Ryanair had gone to the High Court alleging that pilots were being bullied and intimidated by their pro-trade union colleagues. The case was taken against the trade unions Impact, IALPA and BALPA (the Irish and British airline pilots associations). The bullying pilots were hiding behind aliases on a chat website, Ryanair claimed, and the court should order their true identities be revealed.
Instead, in an unusually perfect example of being hoist by one's own petard, it was Ryanair itself which was found to be the bully.
The background is as follows: in 2004, Ryanair was in the process of switching its aircraft from Boeing 737-200s to the more up-to-date 737-800s, and pilots needed to be retrained on the newer planes.
Ryanair wrote to all its pilots on November 12th, 2004, informing them that the company would refund them the training costs (€15,000) only if certain conditions were met. One of these was that should "Ryanair be compelled to engage in collective bargaining with any pilot association or trade union within five years of commencement of your conversion training, then you will be liable to repay the full training costs".
The letter's next sentence is an example of the famous Ryanair cheekiness which we all, for some unfathomable reason, appear to find so endearing. The pilots were told that "naturally this does not and will not affect your right to freely join any trade union or association of your choice."
Mr Justice Smyth was scathing about this. Describing it as "a Hobson's choice", he said it was "both irrational and unjust" that a pilot "through no act or default on his part could suffer the loss of €15,000". He added: "In my judgment this is a most onerous condition and bears all the hallmarks of oppression."
Pilots were understandably aggrieved by this condition. Ryanair management tried to discover what they were saying to each other on their website. Apparently supplied with a password by someone described by Mr Justice Smyth variously as a traitor, informer, Iscariot or Iago, the company infiltrated the website, and then took its court action to discover the identities of pilots who signed themselves "cantfly-wontfly" and "ihateryanair".
The judge found that there was no evidence of any bullying or intimidation of pilots by their colleagues on the website. He found wholly against Ryanair, and ordered the company to pay the costs of the seven-day action, estimated to be about €1 million.
He specifically found that the evidence of two senior members of Ryanair staff was "baseless and false". He judged that the real purpose of the company in investigating the pilots' website "was to break whatever resolve there might have been amongst the captains to seek better terms." He further stated that the decision to involve the Garda Síochána was unwarranted and had "all the hallmarks of action in terrorem" (ie designed to terrify).
Mr Justice Smyth took two hours to deliver his 65-page judgment last July. His further characterisations of the actions of Ryanair include the following: "despotic indifference", "sneering disregard", "facade of concern", "unburdened by integrity".
Justice Smyth concluded that "without hesitation, I find as a fact that ... 'fairness' did not seem to come into the reckoning of the plaintiff [ Ryanair] in its dealings with the defendants on the issues raised in and by this case. In summary, in the words of Isabella in Measure for Measure Act II.2: 'Oh, it is excellent to have a giant's strength; but it is tyrannous to use it like a giant'."
It is important to remember that these are not the views of disgruntled Ryanair employees, or of passengers fed up by all the hidden charges on top of the airline's flight costs. It is, rather, an insight into the culture of Ryanair from an impeccably authoritative source, a judge of the land dispassionately and impartially considering the facts as laid before him.
It begs an important question. Do we really wish to equate the kind of values defined by Mr Justice Smyth with the "new" Ireland? Are we happy that a company which engages in activities so roundly condemned by the judge should stand for us as an emblem of what we wish and hope our society to become?
© The Irish Times
