bmi (industrial action vote)
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Some more interesting thoughts from our beloved leaders
Whilst the sector pay fiasco has impinged less on the FOs than Captains due to the lesser amount of sector pay they receive it would be fair to say that most FOs aspire to the LHS and as such they have a vested interest in ensuring that their future terms and conditions are protected. Contrary to what TB asserts by my calculations FOs are worse off to the tune of £1372 pa net, assuming the IR edicts are implemented. The Company has given no guarantee to continue underwriting sector pay beyond this year
I'm sure that a more in depth search for the necessary funds will produce a positive result after the ballot result is known.
Non BALPA members could be in a potentially difficult position if a strike is called. I'm sure many would be reticent to break ranks and report for work yet they will not have the protection union membership affords if they don't report - time to join up guys?
I do not believe that any First Officer can possibly feel sufficiently aggrieved to vote for strike action. I am concerned that you might fall prey to the wishes of the broader pilot community to give the management a bloody nose. Be aware that many of those who might be pressing you vote yes have grievances which stretch back a long way before your time.
Finally, if the majority vote is yes a strike is inevitable, there is no more this year. Therefore I would appreciate those who do not support the withdrawal of labour let us know as soon as possible so that we can plan for the strike and at least limit the disruption to our hard won customers.
Non BALPA members could be in a potentially difficult position if a strike is called. I'm sure many would be reticent to break ranks and report for work yet they will not have the protection union membership affords if they don't report - time to join up guys?
Last edited by Looker; 3rd Aug 2006 at 23:02.
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Time to join up guys?--no not really, time to decide whether you want to cripple the airline. The reason that BMI is still with us is because the Bishop style of management has been concise and reactive without delay. Remember the 1-11s, remember London City?
Bishop is at the age were he dosnt need to work anymore, so think long and hard before you re-act to short term stupidity. He could sell the slots and walk away-- how are you fixed?
Bishop is at the age were he dosnt need to work anymore, so think long and hard before you re-act to short term stupidity. He could sell the slots and walk away-- how are you fixed?
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He could sell the slots and walk away-- how are you fixed?
I doubt if the owners could stand the ignomy of selling up due to an industrial dispute. They would be laughed out of the business.
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theresalwaysone
C172Navigator
You two above.
Just imagine if the whole world would be made up of people with the opinions you two seem to possess.
Where on earth (or in the sky) would we all really be?
C172Navigator
You two above.
Just imagine if the whole world would be made up of people with the opinions you two seem to possess.
Where on earth (or in the sky) would we all really be?
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C172 Navigator - I don't work for BMI, but I'm following this with interest. I'm really concerned that if your viewpoint were to prevail, you'll be looking at an ever-degrading set of terms and conditions. You need to have a long hard think about your position, IMHO.
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Originally Posted by C172Navigator
What is wrong with selling a day off? I have done this, and will continue to do so - I appreciate the extra money. We live in a free country and shouldn't fall out just because one person chooses to do some over-time and another does not.
We'd all like the additional money.
Its not hard to evolve an argument (done many times before) as to why this is strategically a bad thing to do. But then your post betrays a lack of strategic thinking IMHO.
Most of us do it because we're feathering our own nest. Lets not kid ourselves here.
Originally Posted by C172Navigator
This whole Balpa thing is getting out of control, seems to me the objective now is to strike and cause the company harm, not achieve better conditions for Balpa members (and non members, like myself). These bull-boy tactics of Balpa and some of my militant colleagues is the main reason I dislike unions and the whole idea of a strike - why can't people see the harm it will cause. You complain about money/pensions/rostering (depending on the part of bmi you work in) but whatever the problems how can a strike achieve anything other than problems for the company and maybe cost us our jobs? I have bills to pay, a women to keep and a desire to further my career - sending bmi under through industrial action is short-sighted and wrong.
The argument that anyone with this kind of vested financial interest in job security, would gamely plough towards a course of action which would jeopardise this, is hard to fathom.
Maybe its you who is not thinking hard enough about the strategic consequences of your actions?
Which of the unions demands is unreasonable?
As I understand, to those aspiring to LHS occupancy, the bmibaby management suggest reading "The Southwest Airlines Way"!
The irony.
No Herb Kelleher here - relational competency? Where?
Four MD's in four years? Room for cynicism?
Has MOL and his LOCO cohorts got one over this industry? We're working for >10% less in real terms than four years ago.
Who is subsidising who?
Is the greed at the bottom of the institutional ladder or the top?
Are you so sure the wool hasn't been pulled over your eyes?
A vote in favour of industrial action is hardly the same thing as industrial action.
What is the budgeted top line for 06/07 anyway? What about the bottom line?
Is there a war-chest for A330 purchases if the Transatlantic market de-regulates? How much is the sale of one LHR slot worth?
Where is SMB on the rich list this year?
So many unknowns....
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I'm sure that a more in depth search for the necessary funds will produce a positive result after the ballot result is known.
When will you lot realise there is no Money in the pot.
You all seem to think the group is lying and hiding vast sums of profit (there isn't any at the moment, and if you have your way there won't be any in the future either)
The strike will not acheive what you want it to, although I think you are all losing sight of what your objectives were in the first place.
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Your actions will only jeopardise everybody elses future, if your not happy just does all a favour and leave.
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bmi mainline strike issues
The main issue in bmi mainline is clear.
An agreement in late 2004 was accepted by bmi pilots and bmi management following a protracted series of negotiations, pilot meetings and ballots throughout that year.
This agreement covered three years - 2004, 2005 and 2006.
The most important part of it and the golden carrot to bmi mainline pilots was the 2006 element.
That said that a survey by independent consultants would look at bmi mainline pilot packages in their entirety and compare them with what other airlines were giving their pilots.
A very important part of that agreement was that data relating to BA and Virgin pilot packages would not be excluded from this exercise. Up to this time bmi management had always dismissed claims for any comparision of bmi mainline pilots terms to those of the main competitor airlines at LHR.
That survey took place in 2005 and negotiations were then meant to commence for the 2006 pay award based on the survey data.
bmi management then decided earlier this year to ditch the whole agreement and imposed the corporate pay award on the pilots and said that that was the end of it. No negotiations, survey binned , the end, we're not talking about it.
So basically the signatures of the bmi Personel Director and Flight Ops Director that appear on the agreement documents from 2004 are completely and utterly worthless.
All the negotiations in 2004 were a complete waste of time and we have been strung along by bmi management for the last two and a half years.
How they can expect us to to be taken in by their current promise of talking about 2007 to solve this defies belief.
How can we ever trust a written binding agreement signed by the same company directors again ?
As someone has already said, Midland management must have invented the term "Machiavellian" and for now this is what the "m" in bmi will always stand for with the present set of management.
None of us want to be in the position that we are in now - but bmi management through their own actions haven't left us with many choices.
An agreement in late 2004 was accepted by bmi pilots and bmi management following a protracted series of negotiations, pilot meetings and ballots throughout that year.
This agreement covered three years - 2004, 2005 and 2006.
The most important part of it and the golden carrot to bmi mainline pilots was the 2006 element.
That said that a survey by independent consultants would look at bmi mainline pilot packages in their entirety and compare them with what other airlines were giving their pilots.
A very important part of that agreement was that data relating to BA and Virgin pilot packages would not be excluded from this exercise. Up to this time bmi management had always dismissed claims for any comparision of bmi mainline pilots terms to those of the main competitor airlines at LHR.
That survey took place in 2005 and negotiations were then meant to commence for the 2006 pay award based on the survey data.
bmi management then decided earlier this year to ditch the whole agreement and imposed the corporate pay award on the pilots and said that that was the end of it. No negotiations, survey binned , the end, we're not talking about it.
So basically the signatures of the bmi Personel Director and Flight Ops Director that appear on the agreement documents from 2004 are completely and utterly worthless.
All the negotiations in 2004 were a complete waste of time and we have been strung along by bmi management for the last two and a half years.
How they can expect us to to be taken in by their current promise of talking about 2007 to solve this defies belief.
How can we ever trust a written binding agreement signed by the same company directors again ?
As someone has already said, Midland management must have invented the term "Machiavellian" and for now this is what the "m" in bmi will always stand for with the present set of management.
None of us want to be in the position that we are in now - but bmi management through their own actions haven't left us with many choices.
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captbirdseye -
You are wrong and judging by 99% of entries on this thread, you are in opposition to the vast majority.
I suggest that you leave, as your future may be jeopardised if you stay.
Just imagine that there'll be a huge majority of YES votes. What are you going to do? Go to work? Don't make me lough.
You are wrong and judging by 99% of entries on this thread, you are in opposition to the vast majority.
I suggest that you leave, as your future may be jeopardised if you stay.
Just imagine that there'll be a huge majority of YES votes. What are you going to do? Go to work? Don't make me lough.
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Foolshole I am not wrong, although yes I do seem to disagree with the majority posting in PPRUNE on this topic
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But let me assure you I am not in the minority overall, I think that you will be very surprised, the bombastic approach BALPA have undertaken is probably doing them more harm than good.
And let me assure there is no backing from Cabin Crew , Ground Staff, ops, Crewing, engineering etc etc who all also have an important role in the company.
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We shall wait and see I just hope that common sense prevails and we do not cut our noses to spite our face.
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But let me assure you I am not in the minority overall, I think that you will be very surprised, the bombastic approach BALPA have undertaken is probably doing them more harm than good.
And let me assure there is no backing from Cabin Crew , Ground Staff, ops, Crewing, engineering etc etc who all also have an important role in the company.
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We shall wait and see I just hope that common sense prevails and we do not cut our noses to spite our face.
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There will always be a minority of people who are willing to live off the efforts of others. To date I don't know of any non BALPA members whose principles are such that they refuse / donate to charity any pay increase earned by the efforts BALPA.
This is just a fact of life and I don't lose any sleep over it, however it is hardly a stance to shout about.
This is just a fact of life and I don't lose any sleep over it, however it is hardly a stance to shout about.
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I don't think anyone ignoring an industrial dispute will be viewed in a warm and friendly manner. If they choose to go to work then that's their option, but like I said before about working days off, it doesn't go unnoticed. You will be ignoring the vast majority of your colleagues and basically crapping on the pilot profession as a whole. Quite frankly, it's dispicable. You obviously don't understand the process that is required to improve the way we as pilots are treated by the management.
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Captbirdseye
The issue is that Pilots know if they go on strike and the Company folds then they will get other jobs, albeit probably on less money, not where they want to be, and working harder (except baby crews).
From what i've seen of mainline bmi rosters they are fairly cushy (compared to low cost, charter, freight, BA etc).
Everyone else is in fear of loosing their jobs, not how much payrise they did / did not get. The public support will be thin on the ground when as the BBC Midlands state, Pilots "go on strike over low pay". Yeah right.
Or if the Company gives the Pilots a nice payrise they will take it back from somewhere else, lay off loads of Staff in the Hall or outsource something else.
At the end of the day you guys have a choice, move on the grass is always green.
The issue is that Pilots know if they go on strike and the Company folds then they will get other jobs, albeit probably on less money, not where they want to be, and working harder (except baby crews).
From what i've seen of mainline bmi rosters they are fairly cushy (compared to low cost, charter, freight, BA etc).
Everyone else is in fear of loosing their jobs, not how much payrise they did / did not get. The public support will be thin on the ground when as the BBC Midlands state, Pilots "go on strike over low pay". Yeah right.
Or if the Company gives the Pilots a nice payrise they will take it back from somewhere else, lay off loads of Staff in the Hall or outsource something else.
At the end of the day you guys have a choice, move on the grass is always green.
Paxing All Over The World
Dr. Spin
It is no comfort but - every companyis doing the same, irrespective of what line of business they are in.
As to think that Bishop will sell off and walk away? I do not see that happening. There have been countless well documented times when he could have done that in the last 20 years and he never has. I expect that he will die whilst in the chair at the head of the table, or he will go down with the ship.
But penny-pinching and loosing track of the big picture is a recurring theme these days, or is it just fattening up the calf to be sold off to the highest bidder?
As to think that Bishop will sell off and walk away? I do not see that happening. There have been countless well documented times when he could have done that in the last 20 years and he never has. I expect that he will die whilst in the chair at the head of the table, or he will go down with the ship.
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birdseye:
You have got this awfully wrong mate. I am Balpa.
Nothing can do me more harm than a management that isn't managing to manage!
But let me assure you I am not in the minority overall, I think that you will be very surprised, the bombastic approach BALPA have undertaken is probably doing them more harm than good.
Nothing can do me more harm than a management that isn't managing to manage!
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Firstly, I dont work for BMI, but am as concerned about the gradual deterioration of pilot T and C's across the industry as the next person.
IMHO, it is the likes of C172Navigator, who fuel management fires.
Do you think you will get a medal? Promotion? All you will do is show management you know how to grab your ankles. I am assuming you work for BMI R, do you really think Uncle B will remember your dedication in a years time? NO! You will still get a forced base change, etc, when it suits him.
Make as much money as you can, because if you get a reputation as an individual who will compromise all of his peers for his own myopic agenda, I dont think you will be swimming in job offers.
Are you suggesting it will be like the miners strike - oil barrels at the crew room door and flight crew chanting "Scab"?
Its a small industry, chanting is not normally necessary.
IMHO, it is the likes of C172Navigator, who fuel management fires.
Do you think you will get a medal? Promotion? All you will do is show management you know how to grab your ankles. I am assuming you work for BMI R, do you really think Uncle B will remember your dedication in a years time? NO! You will still get a forced base change, etc, when it suits him.
Make as much money as you can, because if you get a reputation as an individual who will compromise all of his peers for his own myopic agenda, I dont think you will be swimming in job offers.
Are you suggesting it will be like the miners strike - oil barrels at the crew room door and flight crew chanting "Scab"?
Its a small industry, chanting is not normally necessary.
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A little selfish don't you think?
Originally Posted by C172Navigator
What is wrong with going to work if a strike goes ahead and you don't agree with it? I have no problem doing that. .... If you choose to strike then fine, that is your choice, if I choose to work, then that is my choice, and should be respected.
Your are probably laughing down your sleeve by saving your 1% BALPA subscription, and will just quietly accept any ill got gains.
It is a very narrow-minded and selfish attitude, and a little immature to think that no one will ultimately care.
Just a little advice. I would keep your opinions to yourself at work lest you wish to reap the onslaught, at a detriment to CRM.
There is no 'I' in 'Team' and you don't sound like the team player anyway. I hope all goes well with your Thompsonfly application!
Last edited by Dr. Spin; 4th Aug 2006 at 20:13.