Two Swiss Pilots (SPA) Board members manipulate CLA vote results
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Two Swiss Pilots (SPA) Board members manipulate CLA vote results
Two Swiss Pilot Association (SPA) board members manipulate the March 2006 referendum for the company benefit, on the new Collective Labor Agreement for Swiss European pilots.
Two alleged board members turned themselves on after the increased pressure from the pilot group, as these group suspected the vote results to be manipulated for the company benefit, and they launched “NO votes counter committee”.
This committee counted and confirmed over 70 NO votes amongst the member pilots for the CLA voting, versus to union’s declared 19 NO votes. Local authorities have initiated the official investigation for two board members. As the investigation deepens, some more questions will be answered whether these two board members were manipulating the previous vote results on the Flight Duty Regulations, which disadvantaged the former Crossair pilots.
It is believed that this act was primed and supported by Swiss Int. Airlines. Since the beginning of Swiss Int. Airlines era, the former Crossair pilots, whom they work now under the unacceptable “Swiss European pilots” conditions; systematically mobbed, discriminated and disadvantaged by Swiss management for the benefit of former Swissair pilots.
Two alleged board members turned themselves on after the increased pressure from the pilot group, as these group suspected the vote results to be manipulated for the company benefit, and they launched “NO votes counter committee”.
This committee counted and confirmed over 70 NO votes amongst the member pilots for the CLA voting, versus to union’s declared 19 NO votes. Local authorities have initiated the official investigation for two board members. As the investigation deepens, some more questions will be answered whether these two board members were manipulating the previous vote results on the Flight Duty Regulations, which disadvantaged the former Crossair pilots.
It is believed that this act was primed and supported by Swiss Int. Airlines. Since the beginning of Swiss Int. Airlines era, the former Crossair pilots, whom they work now under the unacceptable “Swiss European pilots” conditions; systematically mobbed, discriminated and disadvantaged by Swiss management for the benefit of former Swissair pilots.
Last edited by wingletflyer; 3rd May 2006 at 20:53.
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Yeah, sure...
It is believed that.......who would believe that Swiss Intl Airlines would walk such a thin line and try to prime and support something like that. And besides, the former Crossair pilots can't have unacceptable working conditions since the vast majority of the members in the "Swiss Pilots Ass." accepted the new Collective Working Agreement.
You are also claiming that the old Crossair pilots are mobbed and discriminated which has to be something that is totally out of the blue. Compared to other airlines with regional subsidaries, the ex Crossair pilots have been living a very good life, maybe even too good. That's probably why the company has been trying to get that group back on track and a bit more in line with other comparable pilot-groups.
You are also claiming that the old Crossair pilots are mobbed and discriminated which has to be something that is totally out of the blue. Compared to other airlines with regional subsidaries, the ex Crossair pilots have been living a very good life, maybe even too good. That's probably why the company has been trying to get that group back on track and a bit more in line with other comparable pilot-groups.
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Hi Kabooom
its not only believed... wait and see!!!
Why should somebody do this, come on not for this contract, and not for free!!
Can you explain the excellent life of former crossair pilots to the public please! (i.e. salarys like flight-attendants, lower pension,less holidays.....)
I am excited, if you could turn on the light for me.......
Cheerio
TA
its not only believed... wait and see!!!
Why should somebody do this, come on not for this contract, and not for free!!
Can you explain the excellent life of former crossair pilots to the public please! (i.e. salarys like flight-attendants, lower pension,less holidays.....)
I am excited, if you could turn on the light for me.......
Cheerio
TA
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Originally Posted by Kabooom
It is believed that.......who would believe that Swiss Intl Airlines would walk such a thin line and try to prime and support something like that. And besides, the former Crossair pilots can't have unacceptable working conditions since the vast majority of the members in the "Swiss Pilots Ass." accepted the new Collective Working Agreement..
Originally Posted by Kabooom
the ex Crossair pilots have been living a very good life, maybe even too good. That's probably why the company has been trying to get that group back on track and a bit more in line with other comparable pilot-groups.
There is no need to reinvent the wheel Kaboom. The court of arbitration already confirmed twice that Crossair pilots have been mobbed and discriminated. The rumour has it that the third court run just has been reactivated! -This time without any molls from the union side -
By the way, this thread is all about! The majority of the members did not accept the new CLA. The vote result was manipulated by these two board members to pass the CLA bill. Any way still nobody understands what " Swiss European Airline " means as long as the A320s from the former Swissair side flies in Europe to the same destinations as Swiss European Airlines
Kaboom time to go back to your checklist to switch some lights on!
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Originally Posted by Thin Albert
Can you explain the excellent life of former crossair pilots to the public please! (i.e. salarys like flight-attendants, lower pension,less holidays.....)
I am excited, if you could turn on the light for me.......
I am excited, if you could turn on the light for me.......
Also checked on salaries and working conditions in between different regionals, and the ex Crossiar pilots were quite high up in the list. If you compare to other countries, the national carriers all have subsidaries (i.e. regionals) that are lower paid, flies smaller aircraft and so on. Do you really believe that it is going to work out differently just because your Swiss?
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Hi Kabooom,
Sorry to appear 'picky' but....
a) There is no 'Crossair'.
b) Swiss European Airlines, which is what Crossair became, as you well know, does not have MD-80's
Therefore, I surmise that, in fact, you may have been speaking to someone who flies for a company such as 'Hello' for instance, who may be flying on behalf of Swiss European Airlines. Thus if they (the pilot who you spoke to)are only doing one flight a month for 'Crossair' perhaps there is some information missing here!
Just a thought!
BD
Sorry to appear 'picky' but....
a) There is no 'Crossair'.
b) Swiss European Airlines, which is what Crossair became, as you well know, does not have MD-80's
Therefore, I surmise that, in fact, you may have been speaking to someone who flies for a company such as 'Hello' for instance, who may be flying on behalf of Swiss European Airlines. Thus if they (the pilot who you spoke to)are only doing one flight a month for 'Crossair' perhaps there is some information missing here!
Just a thought!
BD
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I know
It's ok to be picky, but there used to be a Crossair and they did have MD80s flying on charter destinations. So my reflection was that at the time when there was a Crossair company, some of the pilots didn't have a too stressful work situation.
When Swissair went belly up, the new "Swiss Intl Airlines" was formed out of what was left of Swissair and Crossair, since Crossair was about to go down as well. Now the regional part (Swiss European) is supposed to have about the same contractual agreements as their competitors, in order to be cost effective. Until today, it is my understanding that the cost per pilot hour was far to high in comparison.
The ex Swissair pilot group contributed during the formation of Swiss with with large paycuts, increased working hours and significantly reduced pension schemes. In comparison to other "main carriers" this pilot group is "cheaper" than most other European carriers.
What I can't understand is how a pilot group in a newly formed and still quite fragile company wants to go to court claiming that they are mobbed and discriminated. Wouldn´t it be better to let their own union handle the question? Isn't that why they have a union?
And besides, does anybody have the result of he voting for the new CWA? I read in a newspaper that some 70 votes could have been manipulated. If it was a close call, it could have an impact but if the numbers where heavily towards the yes-side even 70 votes wouldn't change the result, or...?
When Swissair went belly up, the new "Swiss Intl Airlines" was formed out of what was left of Swissair and Crossair, since Crossair was about to go down as well. Now the regional part (Swiss European) is supposed to have about the same contractual agreements as their competitors, in order to be cost effective. Until today, it is my understanding that the cost per pilot hour was far to high in comparison.
The ex Swissair pilot group contributed during the formation of Swiss with with large paycuts, increased working hours and significantly reduced pension schemes. In comparison to other "main carriers" this pilot group is "cheaper" than most other European carriers.
What I can't understand is how a pilot group in a newly formed and still quite fragile company wants to go to court claiming that they are mobbed and discriminated. Wouldn´t it be better to let their own union handle the question? Isn't that why they have a union?
And besides, does anybody have the result of he voting for the new CWA? I read in a newspaper that some 70 votes could have been manipulated. If it was a close call, it could have an impact but if the numbers where heavily towards the yes-side even 70 votes wouldn't change the result, or...?
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Kabooom,
Let's compare the apple to apple and the banana to banana, when we are talking about regional airlines.
Look at the LH Cityliner. Do they fly RJ and BAE? Yes?
Look at the SAP (Swiss European). What do they fly? BAE and EM145
The LH Regional salary difference is more than 40% if you are interested to know!
Let's stick in the facts. What routes Swiss European is flying? And what routes Swiss Int. is flying with A320s? Why do you think Swiss postponed the EM170 purchase which was initiated by Crossair? Because no money?
The "different passenger market" argument is very old and invalid invented by some A320 drivers to protect their seat and position!!
So any acceptable explanation why SAP pilots should earn 40% less than LH cityliner pilots although they fly same routes and aircrafts?
I have more questions if you start answering!
........
Let's compare the apple to apple and the banana to banana, when we are talking about regional airlines.
Look at the LH Cityliner. Do they fly RJ and BAE? Yes?
Look at the SAP (Swiss European). What do they fly? BAE and EM145
The LH Regional salary difference is more than 40% if you are interested to know!
Let's stick in the facts. What routes Swiss European is flying? And what routes Swiss Int. is flying with A320s? Why do you think Swiss postponed the EM170 purchase which was initiated by Crossair? Because no money?
The "different passenger market" argument is very old and invalid invented by some A320 drivers to protect their seat and position!!
So any acceptable explanation why SAP pilots should earn 40% less than LH cityliner pilots although they fly same routes and aircrafts?
I have more questions if you start answering!
........
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Whoop whoop,
-The MD83 at Crossair was also operating line flights (schedule) for Swissair: Baku and Yerevan ( SRxxxx flight not a LXxxxx). Dublin was also operated by the MD after the Thessalonique split. The "Tour de Suisse": GVA-ZRH-BSL-ZRH-GVA, all SRxxx flights.
-When LX and SR merged for Swiss the MD pilots claimed the same salary and benefits from SR. SR pilots claimed that it's more complicated to operate a bus than a MD and that we were REGIO pilots. But SR was operating the MD before right?
So what is it? The size of the A/C (MD with 156 seats), the routes (GVA-KEF with oceanic procedure is a REGIO flight?, ZRH-Sharm is REGIO as well as Yerevan?), the range? .... LX MD pilots gained a few bucks there but we were still segregated and that was confirmed by court.
- Yes we had a cool schedule on the MD but we had also double nights charters: Egypt followed by KEF, two red eyes night in a row. But how cool was it compared to a MD11 or longhaul and for how much difference in salary?
- Speaking of salary could we open the books and check the difference in pension fund between an ex LX and a SR guy? We were not treated equally that's for sure.
-Mr Bruggisser did what he did as well as Super Mario, but stop spitting on LX folks. He drove SR in that situation and we've payed a high price for this: Swiss citizens put 2 billions out of their taxes for Swiss, and YES SR folks accepted 35% cuts on some benefits, but it makes a whole difference if it's 35% out of 100000CH for your pension fund or 15% out of 7000 CH. Anyway Justice will decide for Ph. Bruggisser.
Fortunetly there is Easy Jet and there SR and LX folks are coming intelligent enought to understand that they are sharing the same passion: Flying and I like that, we are pilots, not politicians.
"Power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who haven't got it"
-The MD83 at Crossair was also operating line flights (schedule) for Swissair: Baku and Yerevan ( SRxxxx flight not a LXxxxx). Dublin was also operated by the MD after the Thessalonique split. The "Tour de Suisse": GVA-ZRH-BSL-ZRH-GVA, all SRxxx flights.
-When LX and SR merged for Swiss the MD pilots claimed the same salary and benefits from SR. SR pilots claimed that it's more complicated to operate a bus than a MD and that we were REGIO pilots. But SR was operating the MD before right?
So what is it? The size of the A/C (MD with 156 seats), the routes (GVA-KEF with oceanic procedure is a REGIO flight?, ZRH-Sharm is REGIO as well as Yerevan?), the range? .... LX MD pilots gained a few bucks there but we were still segregated and that was confirmed by court.
- Yes we had a cool schedule on the MD but we had also double nights charters: Egypt followed by KEF, two red eyes night in a row. But how cool was it compared to a MD11 or longhaul and for how much difference in salary?
- Speaking of salary could we open the books and check the difference in pension fund between an ex LX and a SR guy? We were not treated equally that's for sure.
-Mr Bruggisser did what he did as well as Super Mario, but stop spitting on LX folks. He drove SR in that situation and we've payed a high price for this: Swiss citizens put 2 billions out of their taxes for Swiss, and YES SR folks accepted 35% cuts on some benefits, but it makes a whole difference if it's 35% out of 100000CH for your pension fund or 15% out of 7000 CH. Anyway Justice will decide for Ph. Bruggisser.
Fortunetly there is Easy Jet and there SR and LX folks are coming intelligent enought to understand that they are sharing the same passion: Flying and I like that, we are pilots, not politicians.
"Power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who haven't got it"
Last edited by bauduin_alex; 4th May 2006 at 18:46.
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Well said Alex,
It's said to see many people are still sharing biased information about former Swissair and Crossair.
You still hear about the famous salary cut, the famous word "Regio", big and small aircraft, selection and the fairy story that Crossair would have gone down the drain after Swissair.
It’s also nice having some people here knowing the real story and what really happened!
Cheers
It's said to see many people are still sharing biased information about former Swissair and Crossair.
You still hear about the famous salary cut, the famous word "Regio", big and small aircraft, selection and the fairy story that Crossair would have gone down the drain after Swissair.
It’s also nice having some people here knowing the real story and what really happened!
Cheers
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If all the ex Crossair pilots and all the ex Swissair pilots are doing the same job and are trained the same way etc etc, why didn't all Crossair pilots go work for Swissair instead? That would have solved the problem they might have with being employed in the regional part off Swiss International and being abused and mobbed and whatever has come up in this discussion.
I also got my hands on a pressrelease from Swiss Intl regarding the vote fixing...seems like the pilot who was involved has been grounded with immediate effect until further notice. Also seems like the company takes a strong standpoint against any such actions. So it would be nice to see what is going to happen or as "Thin Albert" so nicely put it..."its not only believed... wait and see!!!". So I'll wait and see. Maybe there's going to be something in the newspaper in the coming days, unless the story is moved to page 3 in The Herald....
I also got my hands on a pressrelease from Swiss Intl regarding the vote fixing...seems like the pilot who was involved has been grounded with immediate effect until further notice. Also seems like the company takes a strong standpoint against any such actions. So it would be nice to see what is going to happen or as "Thin Albert" so nicely put it..."its not only believed... wait and see!!!". So I'll wait and see. Maybe there's going to be something in the newspaper in the coming days, unless the story is moved to page 3 in The Herald....
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Originally Posted by Kabooom
I also got my hands on a pressrelease from Swiss Intl regarding the vote fixing...seems like the pilot who was involved has been grounded with immediate effect until further notice. Also seems like the company takes a strong standpoint against any such actions.
We have seen many Swiss press releases written by professional ex Blick journalists. But they were stored in a very short memory of Swiss as one week later would not even remembered by who ever wrote it!
Kabooom, this is just the beginning! Two board members are only the tip of the iceberg! The investigation will not remain focused on two dishonest board members. It will go deeper and deeper until the real iceberg is visible and neutralized.
There are many others! spending sleepless nights next to these two dishonest board members!
Last edited by wingletflyer; 4th May 2006 at 21:16.
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"why didn't all Crossair pilots go work for Swissair instead?"
When MD80 pilots have been offered a raise they had to sign a paper stating than no transfer on the bus will be granted. That is we were "blocked" on the MD since we were not from the same world (That's not segregation btw?). Some MD pilots did not signed the paper, voiced up legally and made it on the bus. It's incredible power what the words "Maitre Poncet, Maitre Barillon" could generate!
To answer the question:
If I go to Swiss I'll be probably tagged as Ex-LX and I have a doubt about the fairness of the selection process. And I think also the opposite, that is if a key position in a company is held by a former LX he will prefer a former LX pilot rather than a former SR. However I've got more trust in the EasyJet or whoever selection because it will be more neutral. The LX-SR tension is not new it has been ongoing for a long time and it will continue....
When MD80 pilots have been offered a raise they had to sign a paper stating than no transfer on the bus will be granted. That is we were "blocked" on the MD since we were not from the same world (That's not segregation btw?). Some MD pilots did not signed the paper, voiced up legally and made it on the bus. It's incredible power what the words "Maitre Poncet, Maitre Barillon" could generate!
To answer the question:
If I go to Swiss I'll be probably tagged as Ex-LX and I have a doubt about the fairness of the selection process. And I think also the opposite, that is if a key position in a company is held by a former LX he will prefer a former LX pilot rather than a former SR. However I've got more trust in the EasyJet or whoever selection because it will be more neutral. The LX-SR tension is not new it has been ongoing for a long time and it will continue....
Last edited by bauduin_alex; 4th May 2006 at 20:26.
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Alex, do you remember what happened to those pilots went on the bus?
Many of them have been artificially failed by honest and highly professional former Swissair simulator and line instructors.
So what happened to those failed pilots: Many of them are flying on the bus for different companies and happy ever after.
I am happy that "Toulouse" is not in Switzerland
Many of them have been artificially failed by honest
and highly professional former Swissair simulator and line instructors.So what happened to those failed pilots: Many of them are flying on the bus for different companies and happy ever after.
I am happy that "Toulouse" is not in Switzerland
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Ooops
I really thought they failed because they weren't able to complete the curriculum and simulator flights. But maybe my information isn't accurate enough. Would be nice if "wingletflyer" would explain what he/she means by the term "artificially failed". How can someone be artificially failed???? Either you fail or you don't.
In my line of work, we either make our grades or we don't. If we don't we have to practice more so that we do. I don't exactly know how it's done in the airline business, but I hope that you pass your tests because of your skill, not because of some "artificial" hopes.
In my line of work, we either make our grades or we don't. If we don't we have to practice more so that we do. I don't exactly know how it's done in the airline business, but I hope that you pass your tests because of your skill, not because of some "artificial" hopes.
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You (KABOOOM) have to be Jocking ..... mhhh oh no you have to be a Swissair guy ..... thats the only way i can understand your statments ..... i leve it to that, don´t wona spend to much time on a person like you!
Ex Crossair guy, SFO + Instructor 7 yeras in the Company (SWISS) 4w hoilday
, Brut Salery 3700 EUR.
Not Reginal we are Europen (Ok 20 to 40 seats less then the Busses), Flying the exact same route as the BUSSES.
Cheers
Ex Crossair guy, SFO + Instructor 7 yeras in the Company (SWISS) 4w hoilday
, Brut Salery 3700 EUR.
Not Reginal we are Europen (Ok 20 to 40 seats less then the Busses), Flying the exact same route as the BUSSES.
Cheers
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Press Release Swiss International Airlines
Swiss European pilots’ referendum deemed to have rejected new CLA. Swiss European ceases to recognise Swiss Pilots Association as a social partner.
The Swiss Pilots Association (SPA) gave details Wednesday of the manipulation of the recent referendum on the new 2006 Collective Labour Agreement (CLA) for Swiss European pilots – a referendum for whose conduct and correctness the SPA bears ultimate responsibility. Swiss European now wishes to achieve optimum clarity on these events and their repercussions, in the interests of all the pilots concerned.
Having examined the issue at length, Swiss European concluded that the CLA which was submitted for referendum did not receive adequate democratic approval, and therefore has been rejected.
As a result, the individual contracts of employment which have already been signed by the pilots concerned enter into formal retroactive effect from April 1, 2006. In view of this, the referendum does not need to be held again.
In the light of these serious incidents and the associated severe loss of confidence, Swiss European is no longer able to recognise the SPA as a social partner.
The pilot who was suspended from flight duties on Wednesday has been summarily dismissed in view of his intolerable behaviour. Swiss European is also expressly reserving the right to take legal action against the SPA committee members responsible and any further persons involved.
SWISS Corporate Communications
Phone: +41 (0) 848 773 773
Fax: +41 (44) 564 21 27
[email protected]
www.swiss.com
The Swiss Pilots Association (SPA) gave details Wednesday of the manipulation of the recent referendum on the new 2006 Collective Labour Agreement (CLA) for Swiss European pilots – a referendum for whose conduct and correctness the SPA bears ultimate responsibility. Swiss European now wishes to achieve optimum clarity on these events and their repercussions, in the interests of all the pilots concerned.
Having examined the issue at length, Swiss European concluded that the CLA which was submitted for referendum did not receive adequate democratic approval, and therefore has been rejected.
As a result, the individual contracts of employment which have already been signed by the pilots concerned enter into formal retroactive effect from April 1, 2006. In view of this, the referendum does not need to be held again.
In the light of these serious incidents and the associated severe loss of confidence, Swiss European is no longer able to recognise the SPA as a social partner.
The pilot who was suspended from flight duties on Wednesday has been summarily dismissed in view of his intolerable behaviour. Swiss European is also expressly reserving the right to take legal action against the SPA committee members responsible and any further persons involved.
SWISS Corporate Communications
Phone: +41 (0) 848 773 773
Fax: +41 (44) 564 21 27
[email protected]
www.swiss.com
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Originally Posted by Kabooom
Would be nice if "wingletflyer" would explain what he/she means by the term "artificially failed". How can someone be artificially failed???? Either you fail or you don't.
In my line of work, we either make our grades or we don't. If we don't we have to practice more so that we do. I don't exactly know how it's done in the airline business, but I hope that you pass your tests because of your skill, not because of some "artificial" hopes.
In my line of work, we either make our grades or we don't. If we don't we have to practice more so that we do. I don't exactly know how it's done in the airline business, but I hope that you pass your tests because of your skill, not because of some "artificial" hopes.
No matter how good you are, an ACE or not, no matter how good you are preapred. I make you feel you are nothing! If I am biased to fail you.
Many hostile merged airlines always keep two instructors in the sim to avoid such "artificial" situations mainly driven by political aspects.
I don't know what kind of work you do, but if you are not in airline business I rather reînvent the wheel instead of telling you what airline business is.
BTW, your postings explains that most likely you are not in this business!