SAS to sack all Longhaul Pilots
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As an outsider, I find this thread very interesting from the various political standpoints. One conclusion I draw is that Ramrise is feeding you guys a lot of cr@p. Different pay for the same job, just because you choose to live in an expensive location?
So a BA pilot who chooses to live in Wales should be paid less than a colleague who lives in London? Or an SIA pilot who lives across the bridge in Johor Bahru should be paid less than one living on the Singapore side of the causeway?
If this is the standard viewpoint of Danish pilots towards their Swedish and Norwegian colleagues, maybe it's time for the two latter to "ditch the bitch".
So a BA pilot who chooses to live in Wales should be paid less than a colleague who lives in London? Or an SIA pilot who lives across the bridge in Johor Bahru should be paid less than one living on the Singapore side of the causeway?
If this is the standard viewpoint of Danish pilots towards their Swedish and Norwegian colleagues, maybe it's time for the two latter to "ditch the bitch".
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Dear Che,
Alot of things are historically determined, among them the way our renumeration system looks. When you have an airline than spans three countries that in it self brings the need for different solutions.
Now, the danish pay may be the highest, higher than the norwegian and the swedish. BUT, the level of renumeration reflects, more or less, the cost of living in each country(we also have three currencies, and what about 'kursreguleringsaftalen' cap10, care to comment?) The standard of living is at least as high in norway and sweden, if not higher. Look at the number of norwegians and swedes who have managed to get based in copenhagen and STILL live in their native countries. That is the best deal of all, somewhat higher pay, much lower taxes, cheaper houses and cars.
The underlying reason is that 'arbejdsgiverafgifter'/social taxes are much higher in norway and sweden. The TOTAL tax level among the three countries is probably more or less the same. However, in denmark I just have to pay more of MY pay towards taxes than they do in norway and sweden. That's just the way it is.
Regards,
Ramrise
Alot of things are historically determined, among them the way our renumeration system looks. When you have an airline than spans three countries that in it self brings the need for different solutions.
Now, the danish pay may be the highest, higher than the norwegian and the swedish. BUT, the level of renumeration reflects, more or less, the cost of living in each country(we also have three currencies, and what about 'kursreguleringsaftalen' cap10, care to comment?) The standard of living is at least as high in norway and sweden, if not higher. Look at the number of norwegians and swedes who have managed to get based in copenhagen and STILL live in their native countries. That is the best deal of all, somewhat higher pay, much lower taxes, cheaper houses and cars.
The underlying reason is that 'arbejdsgiverafgifter'/social taxes are much higher in norway and sweden. The TOTAL tax level among the three countries is probably more or less the same. However, in denmark I just have to pay more of MY pay towards taxes than they do in norway and sweden. That's just the way it is.
Regards,
Ramrise
Last edited by Ramrise; 4th Feb 2006 at 09:46.
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You got it Che!
Exactly! The danes are acting in their own interest once again. Its just frustrating to have to watch how they view our passengers and company like an instrument to them, they should have been warned well in advance.
I also like to point out once moore, that it is not primarily the danish pilot group that is the big problem, but the cabin and groundcrew unions, that is pulling the company down through VERRY high costs. But when the pilots go on strike this easily, they give a "go signal" for all the other unions unfortunately.
Denmark has extremely liberal rights to go on stike or "union meetings" as they call them
When it comes to wages, I tried to point out how ridiculous it is to try to compete with costs. This is an old thing that unions used in the monopoly era, and its not even true anymore.
Also, if you continously try to stab youre friends in the back, they loose their faith in you!
You have to give in order to recieve something!
I also like to point out once moore, that it is not primarily the danish pilot group that is the big problem, but the cabin and groundcrew unions, that is pulling the company down through VERRY high costs. But when the pilots go on strike this easily, they give a "go signal" for all the other unions unfortunately.
Denmark has extremely liberal rights to go on stike or "union meetings" as they call them
When it comes to wages, I tried to point out how ridiculous it is to try to compete with costs. This is an old thing that unions used in the monopoly era, and its not even true anymore.
Also, if you continously try to stab youre friends in the back, they loose their faith in you!
You have to give in order to recieve something!
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A reminder...
We have gotten off track.
The strike was NOT about money.
The strike was probably a response to the fact that the company has decided to administratively move some pilots from the consortium to the respective national companies. They also want to move the negotiations from the consortium level to the national level. So, instead of negotiating as one, the three unions will have to negotiate seperately. This is, if you ask me, the absolute killer. If this happens we will suffer. Whether you like ot or not, three unions together will always negotiate a better deal, not necessarily the best deal, but a better deal than the alternative. I for one would gladly give up money(it's only money) if it mattered in this situation. But it doesn't, it feels like this is the big fight the company has never picked before.
As to the sacking of all longhaul pilots. Well, not happening initially anyway. Ultimately, of course, the goal is to have four companies and FOUR seniority lists. And no flow(bidding) between the companies. Hiring wil then be straight into longhaul for example. Conversely, layoffs might happen from longhaul only. This is managements dream scenario. Is this what we want for ourselves?
I don't. And I will do what ever I can to prevent it. Our problem internally(union wise) is that smaller groups within the pilotgroup feel wronged by the majority at some point. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't. But whatever YOUR gripe, it will pale in comparison to what lies in store for all of us IF this happens. If, for example, you feel like you have been cheated out of money at some time, well, this is not the way of EVER getting IT. The strength YOU need to secure the best possible conditions will be forever gone if this happens.
Regards,
Ramrise
The strike was NOT about money.
The strike was probably a response to the fact that the company has decided to administratively move some pilots from the consortium to the respective national companies. They also want to move the negotiations from the consortium level to the national level. So, instead of negotiating as one, the three unions will have to negotiate seperately. This is, if you ask me, the absolute killer. If this happens we will suffer. Whether you like ot or not, three unions together will always negotiate a better deal, not necessarily the best deal, but a better deal than the alternative. I for one would gladly give up money(it's only money) if it mattered in this situation. But it doesn't, it feels like this is the big fight the company has never picked before.
As to the sacking of all longhaul pilots. Well, not happening initially anyway. Ultimately, of course, the goal is to have four companies and FOUR seniority lists. And no flow(bidding) between the companies. Hiring wil then be straight into longhaul for example. Conversely, layoffs might happen from longhaul only. This is managements dream scenario. Is this what we want for ourselves?
I don't. And I will do what ever I can to prevent it. Our problem internally(union wise) is that smaller groups within the pilotgroup feel wronged by the majority at some point. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't. But whatever YOUR gripe, it will pale in comparison to what lies in store for all of us IF this happens. If, for example, you feel like you have been cheated out of money at some time, well, this is not the way of EVER getting IT. The strength YOU need to secure the best possible conditions will be forever gone if this happens.
Regards,
Ramrise
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Is it not?
Is it not true, that a large group of danish pilots live abroad and pay lower taxes of, say 15%. And the moment Denmark becomes its own legal company, they have to pay danish taxes?
A strong lobbygroup that is I say!
The other matter is that many of us think that the danish SAS comunity pray on our customers, thus depriving them on direct routes, through political pressure such as frequent strikes, illegal actions and slow-going. We have grown sick of this for a verry long time now. I think its time to devide the production units or bases now.
It may verry well be that we could do better of together through unity, but then you guys must sit down and discuss what it is all about, and create unity, win-win or whatever.
It all comes down to the bottom line, you must become a lot more humble and start to share..
A strong lobbygroup that is I say!
The other matter is that many of us think that the danish SAS comunity pray on our customers, thus depriving them on direct routes, through political pressure such as frequent strikes, illegal actions and slow-going. We have grown sick of this for a verry long time now. I think its time to devide the production units or bases now.
It may verry well be that we could do better of together through unity, but then you guys must sit down and discuss what it is all about, and create unity, win-win or whatever.
It all comes down to the bottom line, you must become a lot more humble and start to share..
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Share what exatly
Hello !
What exatly is it the Danish pilots are going to share? We live in 2006 and Copenhagen has the bloodiest competition of any. Newsflash there is open skies in Europe any Airline can fly wereever they want.
And for the last time, this fight is not about money, it is about politics, and about how we are beeing treated by our own managment. So ask yourself this, how many airlines are successful when they are doing warfare against their own employees. In stead of fokusing energy on competingwith external compeditors
What exatly is it the Danish pilots are going to share? We live in 2006 and Copenhagen has the bloodiest competition of any. Newsflash there is open skies in Europe any Airline can fly wereever they want.
And for the last time, this fight is not about money, it is about politics, and about how we are beeing treated by our own managment. So ask yourself this, how many airlines are successful when they are doing warfare against their own employees. In stead of fokusing energy on competingwith external compeditors
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Hallo!!!
I do not agree with you!
SAS is complex in its construction and with too many unions, three countries, different laws and interpretation, government owned, by THREE different ones! its a nightmare to any management.
Througout the decades, unions and employees has created an extremely massive "book of rights", way too massive for 2006 operations!
Some of us has realized just that, and we welcome a change, a clean start, to still have a job with good benefits some years from now.
I think we agree that the pilots probably are the least problem here! But how do you think management could sepatate us from the rest of the company, its simply not possible.
You have to accept that there are a multitude of problems here. I allways welcome a dialogue, but if you retaliate everything with these illegal actions, you look just like the other kastrup-mob!
Sorry!
SAS is complex in its construction and with too many unions, three countries, different laws and interpretation, government owned, by THREE different ones! its a nightmare to any management.
Througout the decades, unions and employees has created an extremely massive "book of rights", way too massive for 2006 operations!
Some of us has realized just that, and we welcome a change, a clean start, to still have a job with good benefits some years from now.
I think we agree that the pilots probably are the least problem here! But how do you think management could sepatate us from the rest of the company, its simply not possible.
You have to accept that there are a multitude of problems here. I allways welcome a dialogue, but if you retaliate everything with these illegal actions, you look just like the other kastrup-mob!
Sorry!
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Agree to disagrre
It is my contention that the pilot group in SAS can compete with anyone, in regards to Benefit pacage , productivity and safety. The administration in SAS is quite obviously not able to compete with anybody, mybe we should replace them with a cheaper managment from say the Baltic countries, or even better from India, or China
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Kick them where you can make a little point
Oh well I should have included the personal details then, yes as a propjock I am probably the best paid in the world, and that may need to change, but this is still not a matter of interest really, as we are scandinavians and a little socialistic, my colleges on the blowtorches are among the lowest pay pilots among the European Majors So it equals out. And when factoring in taxation and cost of living it really gets discusting.
And the argument over turpoproppilot salary is really not relevant, as the conflict is not about money at all. It is about politics
And the argument over turpoproppilot salary is really not relevant, as the conflict is not about money at all. It is about politics
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You got it..
..and we know that if the company dont show a surplus, they will sack a couple of hundreds right?
Now, who is at the low end? Q400 guys, right!
Do you actually think SAS can afford to replase you guys with moore of the same kind, just as expensive..
The traditional seniority has become our own enemy. My point is that years of bad managed unions that just pray on the company, may contribute to our own dismissal..
We never contemplated bad times..
Now, who is at the low end? Q400 guys, right!
Do you actually think SAS can afford to replase you guys with moore of the same kind, just as expensive..
The traditional seniority has become our own enemy. My point is that years of bad managed unions that just pray on the company, may contribute to our own dismissal..
We never contemplated bad times..
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Solidarity
Cap10!
I sometimes argue that the fact that pilots are well paid often meke them see themselves as more in tune with managment than employees, and you seem to be. What it comes down to then is that I identify myself as a production worker who try to sell my skills to the highest bidder, and it seems like a majority of my colleges agree with me. We also agre on that the company under present management is heading in the wrong direction. You have another view, and that is OK. But then you are out of tune by the majority of your colleages in SAS. As for mismanaged unions, most seem to feel that they have been to cooperative the last 3 years. And only now are waking up to the fact that they have been had. And it seems to me that the anger in the pilotgroup is at unpresedented levels. And what do you think of that piece of CRM. I suspect that since you have so much hostility and anger towards the unions in SAS and the aircraft you fly that you are X-Lin. So come and join many of us in the fight to get a new seniority list based on DOE. Get the pilots from BU in and right the wrongs, and present a common front to keep SAS as the network carrier in Northwest Europe.
I sometimes argue that the fact that pilots are well paid often meke them see themselves as more in tune with managment than employees, and you seem to be. What it comes down to then is that I identify myself as a production worker who try to sell my skills to the highest bidder, and it seems like a majority of my colleges agree with me. We also agre on that the company under present management is heading in the wrong direction. You have another view, and that is OK. But then you are out of tune by the majority of your colleages in SAS. As for mismanaged unions, most seem to feel that they have been to cooperative the last 3 years. And only now are waking up to the fact that they have been had. And it seems to me that the anger in the pilotgroup is at unpresedented levels. And what do you think of that piece of CRM. I suspect that since you have so much hostility and anger towards the unions in SAS and the aircraft you fly that you are X-Lin. So come and join many of us in the fight to get a new seniority list based on DOE. Get the pilots from BU in and right the wrongs, and present a common front to keep SAS as the network carrier in Northwest Europe.
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Right u R
.. now you are talking! A lot of us has tried to warn about this situation for years now.
The problem is the complete lack of both solidarity and insight in our own shortcomings.
Dont you have a feeling that its a bit too late? And personally I seriously doubt that DPF has the ability to rethink in these matters.
Sad to say..
Then again we cant afford to be so narrowsighted as to think of us as "on the side" compared to other problems.. i.e when we created 5/4 we created a problem for the company. Others wanted the same despite the lack of need! U C?
The problem is the complete lack of both solidarity and insight in our own shortcomings.
Dont you have a feeling that its a bit too late? And personally I seriously doubt that DPF has the ability to rethink in these matters.
Sad to say..
Then again we cant afford to be so narrowsighted as to think of us as "on the side" compared to other problems.. i.e when we created 5/4 we created a problem for the company. Others wanted the same despite the lack of need! U C?
