SAS to sack all Longhaul Pilots
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2006
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From: Norway
SAS to sack all Longhaul Pilots
SAS Management are trying to split their 3 major Pilot unions by employing the pilots in their respective national company: Norway, Sweden and Denmark.
If they succeed, the Longhaul pilots, who are employed in a separate company directly owned by the SAS group, will be without a Pilots union.
SAS management are then free to sack all Longhaul pilots, and employ cheap labour from Baltic Countries.
Leaders from pilot unions in Air Baltic and Estonian has already got the message that this can be the reality in the near future.
If they succeed, the Longhaul pilots, who are employed in a separate company directly owned by the SAS group, will be without a Pilots union.
SAS management are then free to sack all Longhaul pilots, and employ cheap labour from Baltic Countries.
Leaders from pilot unions in Air Baltic and Estonian has already got the message that this can be the reality in the near future.
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 37
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From: Sweden
Pilots
As a passenger I don't care who's flying as long as they have
proper licens and proper training. Where they come from is not
important. Since SAS operates within EASA regulations this
is not a problem. Why should pilots from Estonia or any of the
Baltic states be less good than pilots from Scandinavia carrying
the same licens?
proper licens and proper training. Where they come from is not
important. Since SAS operates within EASA regulations this
is not a problem. Why should pilots from Estonia or any of the
Baltic states be less good than pilots from Scandinavia carrying
the same licens?
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 55
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From: UK
Tjosan - As you say market forces, but pilots have every right to fight tooth and nail for their hard won terms and conditions. I feel safety would suffer massively should these types of employment practises be roled out across Europe.
As a young man I was told NEVER to trust a "Swed" in business. Now I can see why- very dirty and unethical indeed; even to their own country men
Fellows this is coming to a flight deck near you! Forget flagging out this is the future.
As a young man I was told NEVER to trust a "Swed" in business. Now I can see why- very dirty and unethical indeed; even to their own country men
Fellows this is coming to a flight deck near you! Forget flagging out this is the future.
Last edited by Globalwarning; 31st January 2006 at 17:22.
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 37
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From: Sweden
Pilots
The world has changed. With EASA this has changed forever.
I did not make any comments on citizenship, just clarified from
many passengers point of view. We rather arrive than sit and
wait for things that we are not involved in.
Don't disrespect people from other countries, they are as good
anyone else as long as they have the proper rating and the proper training according to JAR and EASA. Wake up rather than make bad comments on
people you don't know.
End of discussion from my point.
I did not make any comments on citizenship, just clarified from
many passengers point of view. We rather arrive than sit and
wait for things that we are not involved in.
Don't disrespect people from other countries, they are as good
anyone else as long as they have the proper rating and the proper training according to JAR and EASA. Wake up rather than make bad comments on
people you don't know.
End of discussion from my point.
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 4
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From: Munich
Hi Tjosan - I believe that proper licences and proper training is of course ok and so it should be, but I as a passenger prefer to fly with a crew that is treated fair and paid fair for the high responsibility they shoulder every day. So itīs also important for which company they fly, a happy pilot or c-crew member is always better than someone who is unhappy with their job situation.
Carl / munich
Carl / munich
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 244
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From: Camelot
Tjosan - think again!
Ever been to Bombay, Beirut or Cairo maybe (to name a few for the purpose of this post)? People driving cars there have licenses but the driving when compared to most of western Europe is atrocious!
Dubai is PERFECT example, super-multicultural environment - take a look at who's driving like a maniac and who's causing the accidents!
The fact remains that our inherit culture has a direct influence on how we behave under certain circumstances or in certain environments. Be that in a car, or professionally in an aeroplane.
Look around objectively. The truth will set you free!
Dubai is PERFECT example, super-multicultural environment - take a look at who's driving like a maniac and who's causing the accidents!
The fact remains that our inherit culture has a direct influence on how we behave under certain circumstances or in certain environments. Be that in a car, or professionally in an aeroplane.
Look around objectively. The truth will set you free!
Guest
Posts: n/a
As a passenger I prefer pilots which are payed extremly good, so they can care about flying the thing and their mind is not occupied with things like mortages, mobbing, etc. As a commercial pilot I do not see me reaching retirement age however without resigning because terms and conditions will be so bad in the next couple of years, that I prefer to grow vegetables by then! Of cause I will be travelling on terra firma from that moment on.
Still behind the curtain
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 245
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From: Arizona, USA
Now, this is a tricky one regarding long-haul pilots. First of all, I don't think SAS will can them. Second, if they are looking to fill the slots with Latvians and Estonians, periodically Ryanair run prominent ads in newspapers trying to steal away pilots from airBaltic and Estonian Air. They are suceeding. Just looking at the airBaltic web page today, they are looking for pilots.
Even here things have changed a lot, just listening from the pilot announcements during the flight. Since a couple of years ago, these announcements have become completely incomprehensive in whatever language you are proficient in. What does that tell you?
If this is the idea to take these pilots flying for the airlines in the Baltics (not Latvians, or Latvian-Russians, or Estonians) but that are employed by these airlines from other far flung countries and who have an operating license to fly a B737-500, I have deep concerns that these same people will fill the function of a long-haul pilot on SAS commanding an A340. Who will pay for his upgrade to that particular class of aircraft and who will pay for his language lessons so that the sausages in the rear will feel comfortable on his flight.
Even here things have changed a lot, just listening from the pilot announcements during the flight. Since a couple of years ago, these announcements have become completely incomprehensive in whatever language you are proficient in. What does that tell you?
If this is the idea to take these pilots flying for the airlines in the Baltics (not Latvians, or Latvian-Russians, or Estonians) but that are employed by these airlines from other far flung countries and who have an operating license to fly a B737-500, I have deep concerns that these same people will fill the function of a long-haul pilot on SAS commanding an A340. Who will pay for his upgrade to that particular class of aircraft and who will pay for his language lessons so that the sausages in the rear will feel comfortable on his flight.
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 149
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From: BRS
Contrary to to what this title suggests, I suspect SAS will not sack all their long haul pilots. It would make for a short haul only operation if it did.
If SAS long haul pilots are worried about eroding T&C's, welcome to the club. You're not alone. Too many pilots chasing too few jobs. It's called market conditions and it doesn't matter whether we like or not. It's fact.
If SAS long haul pilots are worried about eroding T&C's, welcome to the club. You're not alone. Too many pilots chasing too few jobs. It's called market conditions and it doesn't matter whether we like or not. It's fact.
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 58
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From: U.S. East Cost and Europe (travelling too much, and at home in both)
I think we should replace all docters with baltic ones. They have a licence and surely are as good as any other or is there a problem.
http://www.udel.edu/PR/UDaily/2005/m...ism072505.html
For many medical tourists, though, the real attraction is price. The cost of surgery in India, Thailand or South Africa can be one-tenth of what it is in the United States or Western Europe, and sometimes even less. A heart-valve replacement that would cost $200,000 or more in the U.S., for example, goes for $10,000 in India--and that includes round-trip airfare and a brief vacation package. Similarly, a metal-free dental bridge worth $5,500 in the U.S. costs $500 in India, a knee replacement in Thailand with six days of physical therapy costs about one-fifth of what it would in the States, and Lasik eye surgery worth $3,700 in the U.S. is available in many other countries for only $730. Cosmetic surgery savings are even greater: A full facelift that would cost $20,000 in the U.S. runs about $1,250 in South Africa.
there have been cases of botched plastic surgery, particularly from Mexican clinics in the days before anyone figured out what a gold mine cheap, high-quality care could be for the developing countries.
Yet, the hospitals and clinics that cater to the tourist market often are among the best in the world, and many are staffed by physicians trained at major medical centers in the United States and Europe.
Yet, the hospitals and clinics that cater to the tourist market often are among the best in the world, and many are staffed by physicians trained at major medical centers in the United States and Europe.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 29
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From: Norway
Liberalistic drivel
To all you managers frequenting this forum with wet dreams of replacing expensive labour with cheap labour. Look like we are heading for a world wide pilot shortage again, and when the companies start to cancel due to lack of cocpit crews, their belowed marked bite them in the ass, and a biddingwar for qualified pilots start.
The conflict in SAS is about a management who knows rats ass about running an airline, and even less about beeing leaders and inspirators.
The current management in SAS behaves like thugs, and it will not serve them well in the long run.
As the president of Norwegian, a low cost carrier said the other day.
In our company the employees are managments consern nr 1. If we treat them right, our realationship with our costomers is assured to be good. Happy Employees create happy costomers.
Now there is a boss I would like to work for, as opposed to the Sons of Eric the bloody, with management practises to boot
The conflict in SAS is about a management who knows rats ass about running an airline, and even less about beeing leaders and inspirators.
The current management in SAS behaves like thugs, and it will not serve them well in the long run.
As the president of Norwegian, a low cost carrier said the other day.
In our company the employees are managments consern nr 1. If we treat them right, our realationship with our costomers is assured to be good. Happy Employees create happy costomers.
Now there is a boss I would like to work for, as opposed to the Sons of Eric the bloody, with management practises to boot
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 58
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From: U.S. East Cost and Europe (travelling too much, and at home in both)
Originally Posted by jarlerc
That is so true, let´s outsource all the beancounters, and replace them with 2000000 chinese people with abascuses.
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 1,606
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From: UK
Tjosan - As you say market forces, but pilots have every right to fight tooth and nail for their hard won terms and conditions. I feel safety would suffer massively should these types of employment practises be roled out across Europe.
Get to the point and don't hop between arguments to suit your needs.
The fact remains that our inherit culture has a direct influence on how we behave under certain circumstances or in certain environments. Be that in a car, or professionally in an aeroplane.
If you SAS lot can blithly condemn all other cultures through fear of eroded Ts&Cs, then I'm all in favour of them sacking the lot of you.
Last edited by Re-Heat; 1st February 2006 at 19:12.
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 55
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From: UK
RE-Heat you really need to read those posts again.
On your profile you state your ambition to become a pilot, as an accountant do you think the sums add up? This is total divide and rule. Ģ and Euros are on the way down for Pilots across Europe and have been for many a year.
On your profile you state your ambition to become a pilot, as an accountant do you think the sums add up? This is total divide and rule. Ģ and Euros are on the way down for Pilots across Europe and have been for many a year.
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 1,606
Likes: 0
From: UK
My career is beside the point. Ts&Cs are not falling due to divide and rule. They are falling as far too many people are training and trained as crew.
The company is exposed to the market at the consumer end, resulting in prices and yields falling, yet their labour supply is sheltered from falling labour prices due to the unionisation.
Why do you think that they want to divide and rule? Because they have to before easyJet, Emirates and Ryanair eat them alive on respective long and shorthaul routes with their lower costs and lack of unions.
Many good quality candidates enter Private Equity areas instead as the remuneration on boards is often inadequate. Explaining perhaps the thieving management rubbish that remain.
The company is exposed to the market at the consumer end, resulting in prices and yields falling, yet their labour supply is sheltered from falling labour prices due to the unionisation.
Why do you think that they want to divide and rule? Because they have to before easyJet, Emirates and Ryanair eat them alive on respective long and shorthaul routes with their lower costs and lack of unions.
If outsourcing to cheaper labour is meant to so good and fully equivalent to the home grown product, how come we don't see company chief execs and management boards being filled with low cost candidates...
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 216
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From: SEA (or better PAE)
Hmm, what to say about Baltic or any other pilots coming from smaller countries of eastern Europe?
Do they have any long haul experience (757, 767, 777, 747, A330, A340, MD/DC 10,11)? Il 68, 86, 96, Tu 204?
I do not see that.
let's say that it would be understandable (but questionable) to hire them in regionals (see Crossair's experience with Moldavian crews).
I would be very cautious and also as a passenger I would avoid companies hiring them I would approach it the same way as observing airliners sending their a/c for C and D check to a 3. world country. Having a license, as someone nicely said, is not enough.
Otherwise they wouldn't be so cheap, right?
I do recall the same type of a problem with structural engineers (design, stress) hired by Airbus (through a contracting agency) - originating from Romania - who were, let's say, not well versed in English. But they had one advantage: they were ready to work for 50% less then anybody else on the market. Agency was happy, Airbus was (initially) happy. They were suppose to do the analysis and write certification reports.
Result?
Airbus had to rehire a new batch of engineers capable of writing certification reports with appropriate knowledge of English necessary to compile a sane report. What these guys produced was simply crap. Few of them new some English but the agency presented the as fully fluent. Guess how good is that agency's rating between manufacturers now?
I guess this would be a good lesson for SAS or anyone else trying to cut corners. Flying needs experience in the environment meaning appropriate conduct of English, used to long haul flight and not only the willingness to work and eagerness to face the challenge.
Cheers,
Do they have any long haul experience (757, 767, 777, 747, A330, A340, MD/DC 10,11)? Il 68, 86, 96, Tu 204?
I do not see that.
let's say that it would be understandable (but questionable) to hire them in regionals (see Crossair's experience with Moldavian crews).
I would be very cautious and also as a passenger I would avoid companies hiring them I would approach it the same way as observing airliners sending their a/c for C and D check to a 3. world country. Having a license, as someone nicely said, is not enough.
Otherwise they wouldn't be so cheap, right?
I do recall the same type of a problem with structural engineers (design, stress) hired by Airbus (through a contracting agency) - originating from Romania - who were, let's say, not well versed in English. But they had one advantage: they were ready to work for 50% less then anybody else on the market. Agency was happy, Airbus was (initially) happy. They were suppose to do the analysis and write certification reports.
Result?
Airbus had to rehire a new batch of engineers capable of writing certification reports with appropriate knowledge of English necessary to compile a sane report. What these guys produced was simply crap. Few of them new some English but the agency presented the as fully fluent. Guess how good is that agency's rating between manufacturers now?
I guess this would be a good lesson for SAS or anyone else trying to cut corners. Flying needs experience in the environment meaning appropriate conduct of English, used to long haul flight and not only the willingness to work and eagerness to face the challenge.
Cheers,
Last edited by Grunf; 2nd February 2006 at 19:10.