BA pilots 'prepared to strike'?
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Having a rough idea of how Mr W's mind works, I suspect that a strike will trigger "To be sure, Oi might as well close NAPS anyway - Oi've nothing to lose".
As long as you are all ready for that?
As long as you are all ready for that?
Controversial, moi?
When I joined BA over 20 years ago I thought that I might well apply for a management position, I really couldn't understand the cynicism I witnessed from longer serving pilots. A few short years observation and experience explains all.
I had employment before BA and, in fact, manged many people. While it is true to say that those with no responsibility to pay the company bills often have a simplistic and unrealistic view of what a company should do or be doing I have to say that, with one or two exceptions, senior BA management, and especially BA Flight Ops management, are some of the worst people managers and nastiest individuals I have ever met and have a primary interest of feathering their own nests and climbing the very political greasy pole to high level management.
The Flight Ops management universally have virtually no respect from any BA pilot. I would not apply for management because I could not fit in with the ethos prevalent within that structure. Most of the (few) decent managers are in the lower echelons of the training department.
Following the BALPA members meetings I am prepared to accept compromise but I am not prepared to see my already earned retirement benefits decimated while at the same time seeing managers such as the Director of Flight Crew walking off with bonuses such as his most recent which was just short of £350,000! The last company financial report even went so far as stating the reason why bonuses had been increased by between 150 and 200% was to avoid the (then) government pension CAP!
So while managers are happily trousering large sums for slashing costs (usually by decimating the front end operation to the point it barely functions, buses when on a remote stand anybody?) they want to screw my retirement when it has been proven by highly qualified advisers employed by BALPA that, while changes are needed, the company is seeking to use the excuse of the lamentable, Brown inspired, pensions situation in the UK to make massive savings at the expense of my and my family's, contractually agreed and earned, future.
I am moderate, I am 52, I will strike and if the company folds I will sweep the streets before I let the short term, incompetent, robbers walk off with my future. If I cannot have it then neither can they.
BALPA have done a sterling job to date and if they ask us to strike be under no illusions it will be almost solid such is the level of frustration, anger and determination.
And Mitty demonstrates his ignorance of the matter because to close the fund actually would actually cost many times that of properly funding it under the BALPA and other unions proposals. For a fund to close it has to be fully funded.
I had employment before BA and, in fact, manged many people. While it is true to say that those with no responsibility to pay the company bills often have a simplistic and unrealistic view of what a company should do or be doing I have to say that, with one or two exceptions, senior BA management, and especially BA Flight Ops management, are some of the worst people managers and nastiest individuals I have ever met and have a primary interest of feathering their own nests and climbing the very political greasy pole to high level management.
The Flight Ops management universally have virtually no respect from any BA pilot. I would not apply for management because I could not fit in with the ethos prevalent within that structure. Most of the (few) decent managers are in the lower echelons of the training department.
Following the BALPA members meetings I am prepared to accept compromise but I am not prepared to see my already earned retirement benefits decimated while at the same time seeing managers such as the Director of Flight Crew walking off with bonuses such as his most recent which was just short of £350,000! The last company financial report even went so far as stating the reason why bonuses had been increased by between 150 and 200% was to avoid the (then) government pension CAP!
So while managers are happily trousering large sums for slashing costs (usually by decimating the front end operation to the point it barely functions, buses when on a remote stand anybody?) they want to screw my retirement when it has been proven by highly qualified advisers employed by BALPA that, while changes are needed, the company is seeking to use the excuse of the lamentable, Brown inspired, pensions situation in the UK to make massive savings at the expense of my and my family's, contractually agreed and earned, future.
I am moderate, I am 52, I will strike and if the company folds I will sweep the streets before I let the short term, incompetent, robbers walk off with my future. If I cannot have it then neither can they.
BALPA have done a sterling job to date and if they ask us to strike be under no illusions it will be almost solid such is the level of frustration, anger and determination.
And Mitty demonstrates his ignorance of the matter because to close the fund actually would actually cost many times that of properly funding it under the BALPA and other unions proposals. For a fund to close it has to be fully funded.
Last edited by M.Mouse; 3rd Nov 2006 at 09:01. Reason: To reply to the idiot Mitty.
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Oh dear; if people don't get down from a high-horse attitude on the debate, then I fear it shall be a company going under, exactly what Human Factor suggests - although I am sure he/she would never reallywant to experience that.
To be quite harsh, the market for executives is extremely healthy, as is the compensation that the talented ones can earn elsewhere. What do you think a director of a private-equity owned company earns? The answer exceeds seven figures when their equity interests are sold...
To be quite harsh, the market for executives is extremely healthy, as is the compensation that the talented ones can earn elsewhere. What do you think a director of a private-equity owned company earns? The answer exceeds seven figures when their equity interests are sold...
But how is it to invest in capital to keep the money coming in if it all goes to NAPS;
Why should they stand up for your pension rights, which, if enforced, will entirely obliterate any chance of them having an improvement in their terms.
This "hard talk" of forcing the issue with a strike is counterproductive 70s tosh.
Take a lesson in finance, and realistically work out what you can afford to take from the company
and learn that the airline requires more than the pilots to keep the whole operation flying.
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Pls stryke Nige cos I am weytin 4 yr job n want fly the big one jumbo.
There must be thousands of JAA licenced pilots working for the Arabs Chinese and Indians etc that would be very happy to come and take your jobs. If Willie wants to start BA2.com we will help him, along with your managers. It won't need too many of us to get the prime long haul routes going, and he has shown again today that he doesn't care about short haul.
Don't kid yourselves; you are not irreplaceable!
Don't kid yourselves; you are not irreplaceable!
Don't kid yourselves; you are not irreplaceable!
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Yeah Fly747 and you've previously said you'd like to take the job so let me explain a few home truths to you. We have almost a thousand 777 pilots. If you dragged every European expat out of the middle east, India and China you still wouldn't get enough to get the 777 fleet up and running before BA went bust. Even if you did you'd still have to find and train another thousand 744 pilots. Do you have any idea of how much traffic on these 'prime long haul routes' feeds in from Europe? Did you not spot the shortage of experienced pilots worldwide? Do you not think that people would be loathe to give up reasonable jobs elsewhere for a poorly paid position in BA2. Do you actually believe it would be legal for Willy Walsh to just close down the company and restart it phoenix like from the ashes of the old one? Let me write you a reality check!
PS I love the title of your post "Pls stryke Nige cos I am weytin 4 yr job n want fly the big one jumbo." I doubt you'd even pass the interview for BA2.
PS I love the title of your post "Pls stryke Nige cos I am weytin 4 yr job n want fly the big one jumbo." I doubt you'd even pass the interview for BA2.
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Errr...and why would they want to move anyway?
I'm equally sure most wouldn't as surely they would have done already if BA was that good. The vast majority of our recent joiners have come from either the military or smaller European operators with a small number from Integrated courses at Oxford, etc. It's not as if we haven't been recruiting and the numbers from Cathay, Emirates, etc haven't exactly been huge.
If they're not coming on the current deal, they definitely won't come for BA2.
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Pensions / WW / the future.....
Someone said (previous page)
For a fund to close it has to be fully funded.
WRONG!!!! WRONG!!!!
Whoop whoop, pull up, read small print
It can be closed if it can be shown that to keep it open jeopardises the financial liquidity and future of the airline. I doubt if the PPF will help much. Striking will nae doot not assist the Company's future......
However, even though I'm not in BA, I believe you're right. BA are and have always been the benchmark. If you were to accept a shafting of this magnitude, we might as well all give up and go to work for Moldovan Airways!!!
Good luck, and stuff a leprachaun down the bastard's throat for me - he's just shafted us all in BACON after an asset stripping demonstartion of truly awesome proportions.
For a fund to close it has to be fully funded.
WRONG!!!! WRONG!!!!
Whoop whoop, pull up, read small print
It can be closed if it can be shown that to keep it open jeopardises the financial liquidity and future of the airline. I doubt if the PPF will help much. Striking will nae doot not assist the Company's future......
However, even though I'm not in BA, I believe you're right. BA are and have always been the benchmark. If you were to accept a shafting of this magnitude, we might as well all give up and go to work for Moldovan Airways!!!
Good luck, and stuff a leprachaun down the bastard's throat for me - he's just shafted us all in BACON after an asset stripping demonstartion of truly awesome proportions.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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To wind up NAPS requires around £5bn. This is known as discontinuance and is based upon funding all liabilities whilst at the same time receiving no further contributions from members. All benefits paid out would be based upon pensionable pay on the "day of discontinuance". The source of this was the Chairman of the NAPS Trustees, Monday this week.
Discontinuance is unlikely to be a viable option for the trustees as this will do BA far more damage than accepting BALPAs proposal, which is not a million miles away from what the trustees think BA can afford.
The Pension Regulator would not force discontinuance as he knows it would make BA fold and there would be many thousands of people dipping into PPF coffers, which is the last thing he wants!!
Discontinuance is unlikely to be a viable option for the trustees as this will do BA far more damage than accepting BALPAs proposal, which is not a million miles away from what the trustees think BA can afford.
The Pension Regulator would not force discontinuance as he knows it would make BA fold and there would be many thousands of people dipping into PPF coffers, which is the last thing he wants!!
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Given some of the comments made in this thread, I can see why so few have made it up the management ranks. Most of the comments show a severe lack of knowledge of finance and operations and worse, all the bad mouthing of anyone and everyone (from management on down to accountants and actuaries) doesn't look very professional.
I would be surprised if there was a strike. This is just endless talk (a prep-rally of sorts). I also doubt the public will stand for yet another BA/BAA disruption, and certainly won't be sympathetic to well-paid (supposedly professional) workers striking because of changes to a pension plan, that will still be more generous than the plan of the average city worker.
I would be surprised if there was a strike. This is just endless talk (a prep-rally of sorts). I also doubt the public will stand for yet another BA/BAA disruption, and certainly won't be sympathetic to well-paid (supposedly professional) workers striking because of changes to a pension plan, that will still be more generous than the plan of the average city worker.
Duh, pilots already know they won't win the hearts/minds of the public.
Good luck BA/BALPA pilots!! I hope your leverage & will are strong.
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Yes. I believe the average executive (involved with finance, so that would include the CEO, CFO, Finance Director, Corporate Controller, Commercial Operations, etc.) does know more about finance and running an airline than the average pilot (just based strictly on the naive and down incorrect comments made by pilots in this thread). That's not to say that this applies to all pilots, cause most aren't in this thread and many probably do have the knowledge. But it isn't being displayed in this thread.
So all management folks are now dirty bastards. I mean really, if you guys hate the folks who run the airlines so much, why are you in this business? I know I couldn't work for an industry, much less a company, where I hated the top executives that much.
In any event. I still don't think there will be a strike. Mainly because I believe folks will realize that a strike will only lessen the amount available to shore up the pension. BA is doing okay now. A strike will change that.
To the guy who said that the English people are very patient. I disagree. They aren't. BA's numbers have shown that. People still have not come back to the airline since the last disruption. And it's not just about the English. What about Continental Europe and the Americans, who all fly BA (particularly the business between London and North America....where the bread and butter comes from). Folks are staying away from London because of the security precautions and this is having an effect on BA.
Management WILL offer less should the pilots go on strike. I think they see this as a do or die moment for BA and sadly that puts them in the driver seat of negotiations. Can BA offer more than £500 million? Probably. Management would be stupid to put their best offer on the table first. However, if someone thinks that BA has £2 billion just laying around AND the additional cash required going forward to continue to pay the ever increasing pension costs, then they are fooling themselves. The writing is on the wall (and has been for some time now). There will be significant changes to the plan, whether the pilots strike or not. And definitely the other guys (cabin/ground crew) won't be joining any strike. Anyone who thinks that is living in a dream. But I could be wrong. I guess we'll see.
So when exactly are the pilots planning on striking? Discussions have been going on for a while now. Has the line been drawn in the sand yet (in terms of a date to end discussions)?
LonBA
So all management folks are now dirty bastards. I mean really, if you guys hate the folks who run the airlines so much, why are you in this business? I know I couldn't work for an industry, much less a company, where I hated the top executives that much.
In any event. I still don't think there will be a strike. Mainly because I believe folks will realize that a strike will only lessen the amount available to shore up the pension. BA is doing okay now. A strike will change that.
To the guy who said that the English people are very patient. I disagree. They aren't. BA's numbers have shown that. People still have not come back to the airline since the last disruption. And it's not just about the English. What about Continental Europe and the Americans, who all fly BA (particularly the business between London and North America....where the bread and butter comes from). Folks are staying away from London because of the security precautions and this is having an effect on BA.
Management WILL offer less should the pilots go on strike. I think they see this as a do or die moment for BA and sadly that puts them in the driver seat of negotiations. Can BA offer more than £500 million? Probably. Management would be stupid to put their best offer on the table first. However, if someone thinks that BA has £2 billion just laying around AND the additional cash required going forward to continue to pay the ever increasing pension costs, then they are fooling themselves. The writing is on the wall (and has been for some time now). There will be significant changes to the plan, whether the pilots strike or not. And definitely the other guys (cabin/ground crew) won't be joining any strike. Anyone who thinks that is living in a dream. But I could be wrong. I guess we'll see.
So when exactly are the pilots planning on striking? Discussions have been going on for a while now. Has the line been drawn in the sand yet (in terms of a date to end discussions)?
LonBA
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Thus, it is all the more frustrating... Because to continue with the flying, we have to put up with all the nonsensical rubbish that comes our way from our own flight ops management (who are - amazingly - all pilot colleagues anyway). And don't lecture me about it being my choice, I know all that and choose to stay regardless. But don't expect me to be happy about all the rubbish that comes our way (mindful of the fact that a decent percentage of the daily crap is the government's fault recently).
Oh! To be of independent wealth such that I could engage in Aviation without any managers spoiling it.
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In any event. I still don't think there will be a strike. Mainly because I believe folks will realize that a strike will only lessen the amount available to shore up the pension. BA is doing okay now. A strike will change that.
So when exactly are the pilots planning on striking? Discussions have been going on for a while now. Has the line been drawn in the sand yet (in terms of a date to end discussions)?
LonBA
So when exactly are the pilots planning on striking? Discussions have been going on for a while now. Has the line been drawn in the sand yet (in terms of a date to end discussions)?
LonBA
Many of my colleagues are seeing Willie Walsh and his thug management trying to steal upwards of the equivalent of £500,000 from their pension fund - if that is not worth fighting for, I can't think of much more that is.
We all realise that there is a lot at stake, at the moment the management have as much to lose (if not more) than the emplyees.
As to 'the line in the sand'/'date to end discussions', well line is defined, and the date will be with us in the next 10 days - prepare to see either a ballot for IA or the company VASTLY improve their offer in that time frame.
There is a website that has a podcast of the latest BALPA GMM, but I'll leave that for another to point you at. Suffice to note that the broadsheets and others are starting to talk about a pilots strike at BA. Briefing of the media is underway, the end game is nigh.
Controversial, moi?
Can BA offer more than £500 million? Probably. Management would be stupid to put their best offer on the table first. However, if someone thinks that BA has £2 billion just laying around AND the additional cash required going forward to continue to pay the ever increasing pension costs, then they are fooling themselves.
The short termist CEO and his ilk will rebuff that compromise at their peril. If we strike we may well sink BA.
I am so sick of witnessing 'the unacceptable face of capitalism', to quote a well known politician, I will be prepared to see that happen despite the fact I may well be worse off initially.
I am not a raging communist by nature but, by God, corporate management in the UK could quite easily make me one.
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Top Bunk, I saw the screenshots. Some of the information was a bit misleading, but I guess both sides have to be biased to marshall support for their positions. I liked how it blamed America for the problem. I thought that was a bit simplistic and tired (America is the blame for everything these days).
Well, I hope you guys come to an agreement that everyone can live with. I'm sure IA will be a last option, but let's hope it doesn't get to that.
Well, I hope you guys come to an agreement that everyone can live with. I'm sure IA will be a last option, but let's hope it doesn't get to that.
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I liked how it blamed America for the problem. I thought that was a bit simplistic and tired (America is the blame for everything these days).
Well, I hope you guys come to an agreement that everyone can live with. I'm sure IA will be a last option, but let's hope it doesn't get to that.
Well, I hope you guys come to an agreement that everyone can live with. I'm sure IA will be a last option, but let's hope it doesn't get to that.
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Carnage- I probably saw a different screenshot than the ones you guys are referring to. I was referring to this presentation:
http://bacanaffordtopay.com/slideshow/slideshow.html
The America bit is on slide #5. I believe slide 4 says who is to blame for the current state of things and slide 5 says the US Government....
Not that big of a deal. I just thought it was funny and all (but kinda simplistic too, i.e., completely avoids the impact on cost structure from lcc competition in Europe or increasing commodity prices, etc..).
Topbunk- I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at. But I hope you guys come to a resolution. IA will not benefit BA, the pilots or consumers. I hope cooler heads will prevail and a reasonable agreement is reached.
Good luck!
http://bacanaffordtopay.com/slideshow/slideshow.html
The America bit is on slide #5. I believe slide 4 says who is to blame for the current state of things and slide 5 says the US Government....
Not that big of a deal. I just thought it was funny and all (but kinda simplistic too, i.e., completely avoids the impact on cost structure from lcc competition in Europe or increasing commodity prices, etc..).
Topbunk- I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at. But I hope you guys come to a resolution. IA will not benefit BA, the pilots or consumers. I hope cooler heads will prevail and a reasonable agreement is reached.
Good luck!
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LonBA, the slide-show is months and months old and part of the new BALPA Company Council's Vice Chairman's initial response to BA's opening salvo (produced by him before he bacame a BALPA rep).
This weeks pod-casts from the General Members Meetings are on the web-page named 'screencasts' but it looks as if there is a tech problem with the website as the buttons to play them seem to be missing in both IE7 and Firefox 1.5... Edited here to apologise and say that the previous greyed out text was my mistake... The play buttons were there all the time, it's just that you need to select each one from the sub-menu on the right.
Sadly, they are all videos of the old General Members Meetings (GMMs) from back in March, 2006 anyway. I was confusing the independently managed http://www.bacanaffordtopay.com/ website with BALPA's own http://www.befairba.org website which is where the general public can now download the audio of the latest meeting held last week at Heathrow on Wed 1st November, 2006.
These new podcasts represent the current BALPA (and it's members') thinking.
The current postition of the BACC is that, given the new actuarial valuation and the complicated nature of the relationship between the trustees, the regulator, the company and the employees, 'no change' is no longer an option if we wish to avoid un-negoatiated changes simply being imposed by the regulator.
BALPA have moved the goalposts because the situation demanded so.
IMO, BA would be well advised to move theirs now.
These are the links to each individual audio file of last week's Heathrow GMM...
.WMA Audio Format (45.3Mb) or .mp3 Podcast (89.4Mb)
They have exactly the same content so there is nothing to be gained by downloading both.
Sincere apologies for the previous schoolboy error... A classic case of making what I saw fit my own mental model rather than questioning the information I was receiving. To be fair, I was in a hurry when I made the initial posting. To err is human...
This weeks pod-casts from the General Members Meetings are on the web-page named 'screencasts' but it looks as if there is a tech problem with the website as the buttons to play them seem to be missing in both IE7 and Firefox 1.5... Edited here to apologise and say that the previous greyed out text was my mistake... The play buttons were there all the time, it's just that you need to select each one from the sub-menu on the right.
Sadly, they are all videos of the old General Members Meetings (GMMs) from back in March, 2006 anyway. I was confusing the independently managed http://www.bacanaffordtopay.com/ website with BALPA's own http://www.befairba.org website which is where the general public can now download the audio of the latest meeting held last week at Heathrow on Wed 1st November, 2006.
These new podcasts represent the current BALPA (and it's members') thinking.
The current postition of the BACC is that, given the new actuarial valuation and the complicated nature of the relationship between the trustees, the regulator, the company and the employees, 'no change' is no longer an option if we wish to avoid un-negoatiated changes simply being imposed by the regulator.
BALPA have moved the goalposts because the situation demanded so.
IMO, BA would be well advised to move theirs now.
These are the links to each individual audio file of last week's Heathrow GMM...
.WMA Audio Format (45.3Mb) or .mp3 Podcast (89.4Mb)
They have exactly the same content so there is nothing to be gained by downloading both.
Sincere apologies for the previous schoolboy error... A classic case of making what I saw fit my own mental model rather than questioning the information I was receiving. To be fair, I was in a hurry when I made the initial posting. To err is human...
Last edited by beaver eager; 5th Nov 2006 at 18:14. Reason: To rectify yesterday's screw-up - sorry!