BA pilots 'prepared to strike'?

[overstress]

Striking is the last thing you should do

We know, it comes just after the Ballot, which comes after a 'failure to agree', which comes after months of negotiating with the most bonus-obsessed, money-grabbing management in the history of the company.

[Skylion]

There actually is a lot to lose. If BA were to go under the reduction in pensions people have already earned, never mind would earn in the future, could be severely diminished. Also as far as future employment is concerned, starting at the bottom of other people's seniority lists would not be much fun for those any distance up BA's. 747 Capt to F/O on a Dash 8 is not a small drop.
That raises other interesting questions about the future of the industry and whether seniority within one company is of overall benefit to the pilot community. It is pretty well the only labour group which has clung onto this log. It seriously undermines mobility between companies for any reason be it lifestyle, location, income, unhappiness with a particular employer or anything else which might crop up as people's needs and preferences change as they go through their career.

[Human Factor]

I can't honestly say that I give a stuff any more. They made a promise. They can afford a huge amount more than they're suggesting and they will either pay it or I'll watch them go under.

I wouldn't give them the satisfaction of employing me on peanuts.

[Sean Dell]

BALPA have made BA a sensible offer (which should be palatable to the trustees). Willy Walsh keeps reiterating in the press that the Pensions situation should be sorted out soon. He is going to get egg on his face if this even goes to a ballot (as I am sure it will) as future bookings will be affected.

I personally don't think it will get to a strike - although I am very ready.

It's not about the company 'going under' - cos it won't (BA can afford to pay what we are conceding to). It's about common decency. Honouring contracts. Doing the right thing. But most of all keeping your employees loyal and onside. If that lot goes - then frankly I'll be better off working for someone else, whatever my juniority.

If we stick together (as we will) BA will take note. And so will other Airline managements. It will be for the common good.

[Tooloose]

I hope you're right. Some years ago I was part of a group which met WW to discuss issues of a similar nature. In the course of discussions he used a phrase which I have never forgotten: ''loyalty has no value''. It explained a lot. He does not think like you do. The things that are important to you are not important to him. If you understand this you will not be taken by surprise by what he does next.

[Nearly Nigel]

I would venture to suggest that an airline manager who does not recognise the value of his pilots' loyalty is in the wrong job.

Stand up WW, LCG, PoD and CM (but thanks for all those lovely letters telling me how valued I am)!

[overstress]

Tooloose. Thanks for the info!
NN: Words are cheap, aren't they, especially when written in that kind of 'BA' way.

[KC135777]

Originally Posted by Tooloose

...he [WW] used a phrase which I have never forgotten: ''loyalty has no value''. It explained a lot. He does not think like you do. The things that are important to you are not important to him. If you understand this you will not be taken by surprise by what he does next.

Exactly. "loyalty" or "employee morale". The beancounters have NO way of inserting a value to these items into their algorithms...no numerical value to airline 'managers'. Now....if they were 'leaders'....now that would be a different story. But, in the states at least, and as I suspect throughout the aviation world, they (managers) might "talk the talk", but they NEVER "walk the walk". The arrogance of airline managers is amazing. At AA, when questioned about their 100 million USD bonuses this year, they tell the employees that they "just don't understand management compensation". They also talk about their underpaid situation, and how they can go elsewhere for more $$. They 'need' those levels of compensation, or else a 'brain-drain' might occur. How laughable! AA's "pull together-win together" slogan is SUCH a farse. Based on stock price and forecasts, next year's management bonuses at AA will be 200 million USD. They have MORE than recovered from whatever "sacrifices" they made in 2003. Now it's our turn!!

[MungoP]

This must surely be one of the longest running threads in the history of Pprune... with 47 pages of contributions rapidly I't's approaching its first anniversary...
Could the moderator possibly re-title the thread :

BA Pilots 'Very Thoroughly Prepared to strike'. ?

[Re-Heat]

Originally Posted by KC135777

The arrogance of airline managers is amazing...They also talk about their underpaid situation, and how they can go elsewhere for more $$...How laughable!

Oh dear; if people don't get down from a high-horse attitude on the debate, then I fear it shall be a company going under, exactly what Human Factor suggests - although I am sure he/she would never reallywant to experience that.

To be quite harsh, the market for executives is extremely healthy, as is the compensation that the talented ones can earn elsewhere. What do you think a director of a private-equity owned company earns? The answer exceeds seven figures when their equity interests are sold...

Coming back to reality: yes, WW's comment in such a manner is foolish in front of an employee; yes, the company has money; and yes, management appear overpaid. But how is it to invest in capital to keep the money coming in if it all goes to NAPS; and who from the workforce is standing up to volunteer to replace this "bad" management? If you guys and girls are so good, why are you not in there, changing the management style yourselves?

The fact is that there has to be some reality to this, beyond "give me what I was promised" - remember that you are in the same workforce that failed to prevent the implementation of the BARP with a 4% contribution from the company to a DC scheme to new joiners. Why should they stand up for your pension rights, which, if enforced, will entirely obliterate any chance of them having an improvement in their terms.

This "hard talk" of forcing the issue with a strike is counterproductive 70s tosh. Take a lesson in finance, and realistically work out what you can afford to take from the company (something I dearly hope your unions are doing), and learn that the airline requires more than the pilots to keep the whole operation flying.

P.S. - I tire of this "beancounters" comment. When the day arises that you equate petty management to bad management, and not the hardworking accounting workforce, I will rejoice.

[overstress]

Re-Heat, thanks for that. You cannot be expected to know all the issues as you are clearly not a BA BALPA member. As NAPS was being closed to new members, it is difficult to see how we could have prevented BARP. You can be assured that the BARP issue is being addressed by BALPA. BARPers will stand together with NAPSters as they know that unity will be vital for the next BA onslaught on our terms.

This "hard talk" of forcing the issue with a strike is counterproductive 70s tosh. Take a lesson in finance, and realistically work out what you can afford to take from the company (something I dearly hope your unions are doing), and learn that the airline requires more than the pilots to keep the whole operation flying.

Sorry, but I view that as patronising, particulary the last bit after the comma. We are fighting our own battle, thanks. We are the most productive, cost-effective and 'on-side' employee group in the company. Why WW should choose to have his first falling-out with that group, I don't know.

[Re-Heat]

Originally Posted by overstress

You cannot be expected to know all the issues as you are clearly not a BA BALPA member. As NAPS was being closed to new members, it is difficult to see how we could have prevented BARP. You can be assured that the BARP issue is being addressed by BALPA. BARPers will stand together with NAPSters as they know that unity will be vital for the next BA onslaught on our terms.

No, I am not a member, however I am particularly well aware of the issues and the development of this in BA and BALPA. Particularly:
(a) the threat to strike if new recruits did not receive a final salary pension, which was not delivered, and,
(b) lack of action on the resulting low company contribution. I'm not entirely sure how you expect BARPers to support you, while their pension has been allowed to stand for so long?

I am afraid you read the patronising comment correctly - instigated by the particularly narrow-minded comment below :

Originally Posted by Human Factor

I can't honestly say that I give a stuff any more. They made a promise. They can afford a huge amount more than they're suggesting and they will either pay it or I'll watch them go under.
I wouldn't give them the satisfaction of employing me on peanuts.

[Human Factor]

If you guys and girls are so good, why are you not in there, changing the management style yourselves?

A glass ceiling. No-one with any sort of drive or vision who doesn't conform to the "ideals" set by the higher echelons will ever get beyond the most humble Flight Manager. There is a somewhat eccentric assessment process which bears little relevance to actual management ability. You are seeing the results of this now. I know people who have been through the process, some of whom were successful, others not, and and I see little point attempting it myself. I don't believe that shafting employees is a sensible business practice, which I believe disqualifies me.

...and I stand absolutely by my comment, Re-heat. Why? Because I like to think I have principles.

[LonBA]

Given some of the comments made in this thread, I can see why so few have made it up the management ranks. Most of the comments show a severe lack of knowledge of finance and operations and worse, all the bad mouthing of anyone and everyone (from management on down to accountants and actuaries) doesn't look very professional.

I would be surprised if there was a strike. This is just endless talk (a prep-rally of sorts). I also doubt the public will stand for yet another BA/BAA disruption, and certainly won't be sympathetic to well-paid (supposedly professional) workers striking because of changes to a pension plan, that will still be more generous than the plan of the average city worker.

[Sunshine Express]

"I would be surprised if there was a strike."


Prepare to be surprised very soon.

If the company aren't prepared to negotiate it will be soon.
The unions are all involved NOT just the pilots and BALPA.

[ZFT]

Originally Posted by LonBA

I also doubt the public will stand for yet another BA/BAA disruption, and certainly won't be sympathetic to well-paid (supposedly professional) workers striking because of changes to a pension plan, that will still be more generous than the plan of the average city worker.

I think you just might be surprised how much the (UK) public will stand. Although this thread is about BA pilots, just about every UK pension scheme has been robbed blind by Brown and Co and now many employers are jumping on the bandwagon, solely to improve their bottom line.

Whilst the specifics of this issue are a matter for BA employees only, the general issue of unilaterally changing deferred pay and conditions should be of concern to everyone, irrespective of whether BA pilots pension benefits are better than most.

These benefits have been earned and are a contractual obligation and we should all support any group fighting for their rights, be it pilot groups or any other elements of the aviation industry. Likewise this industry should support non aviation groups with their pension fights.

Unfortunately the green jealousy monster keeps rearing its ugly head, often from within and this is playing into ‘the enemies’ hands.

[Airbus Unplugged]

Whether it's jealousy or people gleefully watching our discomfort, BA pilots were never going to win hearts and minds. A shame really, because I have yet to meet such a cadre of hard working professional people, amongst whom I am privileged to number virtually all of my friends.

Not in that number are those who have chosen to betray their friends and join the management. I would consider myself to have sold my soul to the devil himself if I was to go across to the darkside. I loath the attitude of our senior managers, the naked avarice and the lack of contrition or humility as they lie to our faces.

Those outside are not expected to understand the pensions raid, let's face it, some of those who stand to lose most don't even understand themselves how much they will lose. For me that's the most immoral part of this whole thing, the 'little people' who don't have the knowledge to see through the spin, are also being swindled out of the futures they've earned after years of loyal service.

I'm sure many will see this as a right royal come-uppance for those snooty nosed superior bastards. I can assure you that this is just the beginning, if they were to win on this, then the terms and conditions for all at BA and indeed the rest of the industry will tumble into the abyss.

I can't describe how angry I am. I have to fight hard to prevent the red mist from interfering with my job. I could not live with myself if they were to get away with this.

Willy Walsh's warped nightmare of a Wallmart-BA is the end of the industry as we know it. If we strike to the ruin of the company, the result will be no different.

As much as I love this company, I will not shrink from strangling it to death to spare British society from this poisonous management 'ethic'.

Loyalty has no value - nice. We'll see.

[harpic]

"BA is a pension scheme with an airline attached"

"BA is a pension scheme with an airline attached"

This was a description on BBC Radio 4 this morning. I rather liked it but then I'm not a prespective BA pensioner, employee, or shareholder.

[Loki]

I heard that description applied to Nats by it`s current boss some months ago. It seems to be the fashionable statement made by those who would do away with, plunder or contain decent and fair ( and in Nats case, well funded and managed) pension schemes.

[Magplug]

BA and the pension trustees have been made a fair an reasonable offer by a group of unions including BALPA. Unforunately Willie Walsh and his merry men have already published their wish list to plunder the pension fund and going back on that involves a certain loss of face.

So just for the avoidance of any doubt.....

BA Pilots Will Strike