BA pilots 'prepared to strike'?

[overstress]

Give me a break pls

Sorry Hasher. In this game you make your own breaks.

[Hasher]

No fun you lot!

[overstress]

We like a laugh.. but in this case not at our expense...

[Pandora]

I'll be getting out as soon as the mortgage is paid off. I love flying but hate sitting next to the majoirty who are only intestested in how much money they can make

Anyone else see the irony in these two sentences?

10% margins in business is tiny at an operating level compared to companies the size of BA, including many airlines and travel companies

10% is more than any other airline in the world is making at the moment. A quick search shows that I am not the only person who knows that. Take a look for yourself; http://uk.search.yahoo.com/search?p=...F-8&meta=vc%3D

[Lucifer]

Every airline except (thanks to Airline Business) the below at operating margin?
So not every one then.

2005 (2004) 2005
20 (22) Emirates 11.5%
47 (47) Ryanair 21.8%
49 (61) SkyWest Airlines 11.2%
54 (52) ExpressJet 10.0%
63 (72) Jet Airways 22.3%
72 (76) Mesa Air Group 11.4%
74 (95) Gol Transportes Aereos 23.3%
86 (97) Republic Airways Holdings 17.5%
99 (103) FL Group 43.1%
102 (111) Kenya Airways 15.0%
122 (127) Evergreen Intenational Airlines 12.1%
130 (128) Middle East Airlines 15.9%
131 (133) ASTAR Air Cargo 12.5%
137 (142) Air Transport International 11.4%

And more profitable? Except for Air France-KLM at $1,109m net profit?

And that is only the top 150 - higher margins may be found elsewhere...

[Carnage Matey!]

Don't see too many western airlines in that list their lucifuer. Lots of low cost base Asian or African carriers, looks lke Ryanair is the only recognisable European operator in there. What was AF-KLMs operating margin again?

[Lucifer]

Originally Posted by Carnage Matey!

Don't see too many western airlines in that list their lucifuer. Lots of low cost base Asian or African carriers, looks lke Ryanair is the only recognisable European operator in there. What was AF-KLMs operating margin again?

Emirates = Middle Eastern Full Serv
Ryanair = Western LoCo
SkyWest Airlines = US Regional (United/Delta)
ExpressJet = US Regional (Continental)
Jet Airways = Indian Full Serv
Mesa Air Group = US Regional (United/Delta/US/self)
Gol Transportes Aereos = Brazilian LoCo
Republic Airways Holdings = US Regional
FL Group = Icelandic Holding Co
Kenya Airways = African Major
Evergreen Intenational Airlines = US Charterer
Middle East Airlines = Lebanese
ASTAR Air Cargo = US Cargo (formerlly DHL)
Air Transport International = US Charter

AF-KLM Op Margin = 4.4%

Need I say more, other than that one is African, one is Asian, one is South American, two are Middle Eastern, and the remainder are more Western than Western gets. Unless perhaps you wish to sub-segregate further and argue all night?

[beaver eager]

Lies, Damn Lies & Statistics

All very interesting Lucifer but none of it changes the facts much.

BA say they can't afford to pay. I think they can (along with BALPA and most of my colleagues).

There will be some brinkmanship going on at some point. I am prepared to play my part in that.

[Carnage Matey!]

Well you have rather proved my point there Lucifer:

Emirates = Middle Eastern, Low cost base, government funded.
Ryanair = Western LoCo, the only one, as I mentioned
SkyWest Airlines = US Regional (have you seen what they pay?)
ExpressJet = US Regional (See Skywest)
Jet Airways = Asian, low cost base
Mesa Air Group = US Regional (See ExpressJet)
Gol Transportes Aereos = Brazilian LoCo - developing world, low cost base
Republic Airways Holdings = US Regional (See Mesa Air Group)
FL Group = Icelandic Holding Co - what else so they hold
Kenya Airways = African Major, low cost base
Evergreen Intenational Airlines = US Charterer (lots of work for Uncle Sam)
Middle East Airlines = Lebanese - developing world, low cost base
ASTAR Air Cargo = US Cargo (formerlly DHL? DHL still flying.)
Air Transport International = US Charter (lots of work for Uncle Sam)

Apart from Ryanair I don't see a single recognisable western major in there. Lots of developing world carriers, some with government backing, and a lot of US regional carriers. You're hardly comparing like with like are you? Unless you think operating a couple of hundred commuter aircraft as a franchise is the same as operating 160 widebodys and another hundred or so 100+ seaters under your own brand. I don't even see Jet Blue in there. Show me the major carriers making a 10% margin in any developed nation that has any form of social/welfare infrastructure.

[sikeano]

i reckon this was started by overstress because ba pilots who have contributed all thier service years to the pension and now they been told they are not getting all of it .this is not about the money ba makes or other airlines are making ba has a pension fund of 12 billion and bank of amercia is looking after it allegedy very well .
most of the people replying in this forum are non ba persons and by what i read are only glad the ba pilots are not getting back what they have contributed .
i think this is bad attitude or most probably jealously
we need to support these guys,who knows tommorow some of the airlines you guys join may decide to do a ba .
and if ba pilots are successfull in thier quest it will benefit all the people working as flight crew
it is time boys and girls to get behind these people and support this good cause

[flybywire]

Originally Posted by sikeano

i reckon this was started by overstress because ba pilots who have contributed all thier service years to the pension and now they been told they are not getting all of it .this is not about the money ba makes or other airlines are making ba has a pension fund of 12 billion and bank of amercia is looking after it allegedy very well .

It is about how much BA makes, because BA makes enough money to pay the pensions. It was not a "promise" like some people like to call it, it was a legal document, a contract of employment, and they can't just change things they way they want and anytime they want.

I am just thinking of the enourmous bonus "some managers" would get if they manage to convince the Pilot force to accept the new rip-off deal.
How about that....where do they get the money for that then? And it clearly shows how really and honestly concerned they are about BA's debt and deficit...... Call it integrity...

[Lucifer]

It is about how much BA makes, because BA makes enough money to pay the pensions. It was not a "promise" like some people like to call it, it was a legal document, a contract of employment, and they can't just change things they way they want and anytime they want.

No, it was not - you don't help the cause by posting incorrect facts. A defined benefit pension is not a promise - what you mean is that they have a moral obligation to pay.

The trustees could indeed change it unilaterally - not that anyone in their right mind would do so, hence all the action to convine all and sundry that they cannot pay. The fact that it is in the contract is irrelevant quite frankly - legally there is no obligation.

Pure and simple - this is a moral obligation around which people have planned their retirement, and upon which basis as part of the package, they recruited huge numbers, and for which they can (probably) afford to pay through some means.

[flybywire]

Ok I understand your point and I apologise for the incorrect words I have used. Moral obligation to pay = so why not respect it then.
I do not see anything MORAL in the company's offer of a bonus and in the managers' acceptance of a huge bonus if they manage to change this "moral obligation".

[Dave]

Did anyone see the Evening Standard 9th August?

I forget the exact text but BA has set aside £75m worth of shares this year to reward the directors!

Nice.........

[flybywire]

Originally Posted by Dave

Did anyone see the Evening Standard 9th August?
I forget the exact text but BA has set aside £75m worth of shares this year to reward the directors!
Nice.........

My point exactly.....

[Re-Heat]

I forget the exact text but BA has set aside £75m worth of shares this year to reward the directors!

But these are share options, not cash and not money that is going out from the company. They are simply 20,000,000 new shares that have been created, which dilute the shareholding of the other shareholders. So similar to saying to Mr. Schroder that instead of 3.90% shareholding in BA, he now has 3.899% as the number of shares he holds are a smaller proportion of total shareholding. Share price shifts a little to reflect this, and the shareholders gain when management work to increase the value of their holding as they are incentivised to do so.

Anyone can afford to do that - there is no cash involved!

[Carnage Matey!]

Yet the latest management line is that BA are destroying shareholder value. Well if they keep offering the directors shares options they can hardly be surprised.

Now what about the £850 million provision made for a possibie fine for pricing or the fees to Boeing to secure delivery slots for 777s. Will they be paying for those in share options?

As for incentivising the directors, do we not already pay them a healthy salary to ensure the company performs well?

[overstress]

i reckon this was started by overstress because ba pilots who have contributed all thier service years to the pension and now they been told they are not getting all of it

sikeano you are quite correct. Thank you for your support.

A defined benefit pension is not a promise

Then what on earth is it, lucifer? Presumably those contributions I've been making all this time were just 'moral obligations' as well?

On second thoughts, you're right. Our managers have no morals, so such 'obligations' mean nothing to them.

as part of the package, they recruited huge numbers, and for which they can (probably) afford to pay through some means.

I agree with you! First time for everything

[Saxon Ops]

Stop talking. Go for it!

Will BA LPA be topping up your pension contributions during the strike or would that be financially unviable for them too?

Saxon Ops

[overstress]

Saxon OPs. Your posting is incomprehensible to me.

BTW no-one is 'topping-up' their BA pension at the moment as variable contributions are suspended.