We should ask for more money
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: EU
Posts: 89
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
my aim is not to say something which has to be new and original by all means. actually i 'm glad it's already been said..as that shows some of us want to change the situation for real and aren't just looking at it with your negative point of view.
we don't obviously feel like "drivers" and we know we are extremely precious to our airlines....which are growing fast and making more money than ever.
we deserve more and we're gonna get it.
think positive and then do something about it.
tmr
we don't obviously feel like "drivers" and we know we are extremely precious to our airlines....which are growing fast and making more money than ever.
we deserve more and we're gonna get it.
think positive and then do something about it.
tmr
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Big Whiskey
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
While we're at it lets get rid of the 'pay for your rating' cancer that's slowly killing this occupation.
Wait for it.. an avalanche of replies saying aviaiton owes me nothing, yet the management of most airlines never paid for a rating but they prescribe the pills at present.
BFB
Wait for it.. an avalanche of replies saying aviaiton owes me nothing, yet the management of most airlines never paid for a rating but they prescribe the pills at present.
BFB
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
tarik - get a life.
Yes you can kill 200+ people and yourself, if you make a lot of mistakes.
But are your seriously telling me that one little mistake, like switching the wrong button is going to bring down the plane. So you never fly a trip and do anything wrong!!
No
At the end of the day, you are a commodity and market forces set your salary, just like any other job.
Yes you can kill 200+ people and yourself, if you make a lot of mistakes.
But are your seriously telling me that one little mistake, like switching the wrong button is going to bring down the plane. So you never fly a trip and do anything wrong!!
No
At the end of the day, you are a commodity and market forces set your salary, just like any other job.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
badbiccychucker
Although i agree to an extent you are right about pay being a factor of the market , i do not think that this is really the key issue.
The real issue is that you should be paid what is right for the job you do, how hard you work and how much responsibility you hold. I think we would all agree that top footballs who get thousands of pounds a month for kicking a ball around do not really deserve it! I think people who hold real responability e.g. pilots, doctors, ATC and other similar jobs deserve that pay over any football player.
Im not suggesting that pilots be paid millions a year, I just think that people on here want to be paid for the job you do and not what the market defines as right at the time.
Regards all
Chris
Although i agree to an extent you are right about pay being a factor of the market , i do not think that this is really the key issue.
The real issue is that you should be paid what is right for the job you do, how hard you work and how much responsibility you hold. I think we would all agree that top footballs who get thousands of pounds a month for kicking a ball around do not really deserve it! I think people who hold real responability e.g. pilots, doctors, ATC and other similar jobs deserve that pay over any football player.
Im not suggesting that pilots be paid millions a year, I just think that people on here want to be paid for the job you do and not what the market defines as right at the time.
Regards all
Chris
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: spain
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
badbiccychucker first off all I
badbiccychucker first of all I do not know if you are a pilot or not!!
As for a button,maybe it will not kill you, but honestly in your career did you ever had to make a decision in a matter of seconds that was a bit more important and crucial than your button??
In aviation we are exposed to lots of very harmful things,starting
with the weather radar that we literaly sit on top to so many
other things that our bodies are exposed to.
Can you tell me why lots of airlines pay very good salaries
and yet they always make profit.
Recently the fuel prices went up, almost every airline managed
to generate more income by simply adding a fuel tax on the
ticket price, yet althougt the ticket prices went up, most of the
airlines reported profit this year!!!!
So why the very cheap tickets????
badbiccychucker first of all I do not know if you are a pilot or not!!
As for a button,maybe it will not kill you, but honestly in your career did you ever had to make a decision in a matter of seconds that was a bit more important and crucial than your button??
In aviation we are exposed to lots of very harmful things,starting
with the weather radar that we literaly sit on top to so many
other things that our bodies are exposed to.
Can you tell me why lots of airlines pay very good salaries
and yet they always make profit.
Recently the fuel prices went up, almost every airline managed
to generate more income by simply adding a fuel tax on the
ticket price, yet althougt the ticket prices went up, most of the
airlines reported profit this year!!!!
So why the very cheap tickets????
Join Date: May 2001
Location: HERE AND THERE
Posts: 863
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Great Tarik!
You are at the point! Excellent post.
What some fellows fail to notice is that we are talking about experienced professionals, with established careers, at this point in time. And for those, seniority is irrelevant.
For instance, a DEC is admitted at airline A for 10,000$ a month. Airline B badly needs experienced captains for their sparkling new big birds, unavailable for the moment.
The only way to fix things? Offer that DEC 12,000; 15,000$ or whatever necessary to compensate the burden of the move...
This is market law fundamentals.
What some fellows fail to notice is that we are talking about experienced professionals, with established careers, at this point in time. And for those, seniority is irrelevant.
For instance, a DEC is admitted at airline A for 10,000$ a month. Airline B badly needs experienced captains for their sparkling new big birds, unavailable for the moment.
The only way to fix things? Offer that DEC 12,000; 15,000$ or whatever necessary to compensate the burden of the move...
This is market law fundamentals.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: spain
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is exactly my point, when a company requires civil engineers
for example ,they place an add in the newspapers,and they always state that the pay will be between two figures depending
on the applicants experience.
Only in our profession,no matter how experienced we are ,we still
join at the bottom of the payscale!!!
I think it is time to all join hands and change the rules of the game.
for example ,they place an add in the newspapers,and they always state that the pay will be between two figures depending
on the applicants experience.
Only in our profession,no matter how experienced we are ,we still
join at the bottom of the payscale!!!
I think it is time to all join hands and change the rules of the game.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: EU
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WHO ARE WE KIDDING????
While we undoubtedly have a responsible and oft-demanding job - we are not alone in this and there are some extremely pompous comments in these threads..
1.Subway drivers on each rush-hour trip have over 1000 lives in their hands and earn very little. 2.Doctors/Nurses/Paramedics are professional, highly trained and earn sh*t money compared with us.
3. These are just two examples and there are plenty more.
Every job is demanding in its own way, we are nothing special.
I am very lucky - I do a job that I love, I am reasonably rewarded financially in our market sector. We have some status and get to sleep with CC (ok, so there are some downsides).
Yes we all think we are worth more, so if the salary is not up to your high standards......you know the answer!
btw I've made plenty of mistakes and my pax/crew and I are still alive!
1.Subway drivers on each rush-hour trip have over 1000 lives in their hands and earn very little. 2.Doctors/Nurses/Paramedics are professional, highly trained and earn sh*t money compared with us.
3. These are just two examples and there are plenty more.
Every job is demanding in its own way, we are nothing special.
I am very lucky - I do a job that I love, I am reasonably rewarded financially in our market sector. We have some status and get to sleep with CC (ok, so there are some downsides).
Yes we all think we are worth more, so if the salary is not up to your high standards......you know the answer!
btw I've made plenty of mistakes and my pax/crew and I are still alive!
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Alba sor
Posts: 575
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
threegreenlights.... what a silly response.... 
1. A subway driver... is a driver! Driving a vehicle running on rails, heavily controlled by others in signalling etc... no comparison, and they are unskilled.
You are joking, they start on about 30K, that is way more than a new start F/O on a turbo prop...
2.
I have yet to see a doctor on "sh*t money"...!
What a stupid immature statement... if you really are in the industry you must be one of these yougsters who all stary eyed paid up for a type rating to fly a shiny jet... 
The only way this industry will change regards management attitude towards us is to stop the 'buying type ratings scam'.
If you don't believe me, just poke your head into the wanabes forum and see all the gushing about 'buying a job'... thats just it, it is a job , anf the youngsters have to understand that. These guys have too much money to spend on flying and see no problem with buying themselves into a job, management know it and use it as a lever on all aircrew.
Doomsayer maybe, but shortage or not, its gonna get worse before it gets better, unless we can get Balpa off their cozy arses and do something!!
1. A subway driver... is a driver! Driving a vehicle running on rails, heavily controlled by others in signalling etc... no comparison, and they are unskilled.
earn very little
2.
Doctors/Nurses/Paramedics are professional, highly trained and earn sh*t money compared with us.
I am very lucky - I do a job that I love, I am reasonably rewarded financially in our market sector. We have some status and get to sleep with CC (ok, so there are some downsides).
The only way this industry will change regards management attitude towards us is to stop the 'buying type ratings scam'.
If you don't believe me, just poke your head into the wanabes forum and see all the gushing about 'buying a job'... thats just it, it is a job , anf the youngsters have to understand that. These guys have too much money to spend on flying and see no problem with buying themselves into a job, management know it and use it as a lever on all aircrew.
Doomsayer maybe, but shortage or not, its gonna get worse before it gets better, unless we can get Balpa off their cozy arses and do something!!
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: EU
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
COME COME DEAR CHAP...........
I see we not only get pompous statements but rather rude ones too.....
I understand that you want more money - don't we all.
I was merely trying to point out lots of other people have responsible jobs and comparing like with like is seldom realistic or enhances your argument.....as you seem to have discovered from my thread.
We have to look at our own industrial sector and try and intelligently improve our situation - not only for us but also for future staff. Doubtless BALPA will have its say on the matter and we will all wait with baited breath for the response.....as before.
In the meantime, ranting - rudely or otherwise - is not going to endear you or advance your case to anyone.....and it's certainly not very good for your BP
Now if you want to harangue me about my comments re the CC - please go ahead, I do admit to having a rather murky sense of humour....but most people love me for it and don't take me TOO seriously
So all criticisms gratefully received and noted. Thank you.
I understand that you want more money - don't we all.
I was merely trying to point out lots of other people have responsible jobs and comparing like with like is seldom realistic or enhances your argument.....as you seem to have discovered from my thread.
We have to look at our own industrial sector and try and intelligently improve our situation - not only for us but also for future staff. Doubtless BALPA will have its say on the matter and we will all wait with baited breath for the response.....as before.
In the meantime, ranting - rudely or otherwise - is not going to endear you or advance your case to anyone.....and it's certainly not very good for your BP
Now if you want to harangue me about my comments re the CC - please go ahead, I do admit to having a rather murky sense of humour....but most people love me for it and don't take me TOO seriously
So all criticisms gratefully received and noted. Thank you.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
threegreenlights
I was merely trying to point out lots of other people have responsible jobs and comparing like with like is seldom realistic or enhances your argument.....as you seem to have discovered from my thread.
We have to look at our own industrial sector and try and intelligently improve our situation
I also have another major complaint about your post:
...and get to sleep with CC
(No comments about poor social skills or body odour problems please - i can assure you im clean and fairly likeable!)
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
waco
what you suggest is a very one sided point of view. If that were the case someone working part time stacking selfs at tesco's for 100 hours a month would be earning the same pay as a pilot, or visa versa.
You should be pay for your responsbility and pressures in your job as well as the training your job requires, not how many hours you work a week.
what you suggest is a very one sided point of view. If that were the case someone working part time stacking selfs at tesco's for 100 hours a month would be earning the same pay as a pilot, or visa versa.
You should be pay for your responsbility and pressures in your job as well as the training your job requires, not how many hours you work a week.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 342
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting point then Chris....
20 years ago when I started in the industry many aircraft had x2 vor,dme adf and loran/decca.
Presently, most aircraft have sophisticated flight management systems making the job easier....perhaps therefore wages should have been reduced ?
20 years ago when I started in the industry many aircraft had x2 vor,dme adf and loran/decca.
Presently, most aircraft have sophisticated flight management systems making the job easier....perhaps therefore wages should have been reduced ?
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 386
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No waco the job has changed in terms of its requirements. responsibilities haven changed. skill set has been changed slightly.
although FMS's make jobs easier in one way, it makes it harder in others. sometimes flying the old 73 is easier than the newer version (and even airbusses). What the **** is it doing now?! confusion.
Still not many people are responsible of getting people from one destination safe to the other. It requires constant re-training/learning etc
this happens in other jobs too granted but probably not often with the same immediate effects.
although FMS's make jobs easier in one way, it makes it harder in others. sometimes flying the old 73 is easier than the newer version (and even airbusses). What the **** is it doing now?! confusion.
Still not many people are responsible of getting people from one destination safe to the other. It requires constant re-training/learning etc
this happens in other jobs too granted but probably not often with the same immediate effects.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 342
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just a couple of further points if I may. Firstly, virtually every job these days is subject to constant change. Secondly, are we saying it was easier to fly an unpressuirised DC-4 from London to Idewild in 1950 than it is to fly a B744 today on the same route ?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: spain
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Waco
I think you have seen a lot in your 20 years of experience to
agree that what we do can not be compared with any other profession,and honestly I do not think your comments about
more advanced machines, less money is realistic.
You want to convince me that a doctor who is been practising medicine for the last 20 years,is making less money now than
when he started 20 years ago because his job is much easier
now!!!
I think you have seen a lot in your 20 years of experience to
agree that what we do can not be compared with any other profession,and honestly I do not think your comments about
more advanced machines, less money is realistic.
You want to convince me that a doctor who is been practising medicine for the last 20 years,is making less money now than
when he started 20 years ago because his job is much easier
now!!!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree very much with Shaka Zulu. I am not yet a pilot so i don’t pretend to know the ins and outs; I am also just about to start training with CTC (sorry guys and grls its my fault your pay is all going down.)
But the truth is FMS, GPS INS and all the other more modern aids are designed to make the job easier and more importantly safer, so that pilots time can be spent managing the aircraft rather than needing all his/her attention just keeping it going in the right direction.
I’m sure you will agree that the captain is still in charge on the aircraft so in fact his/her responsibility will not have changed from a captain 20 years ago, although the tools at his disposal have improved.
(sorry guys and grls its my fault your pay is all going down.)But the truth is FMS, GPS INS and all the other more modern aids are designed to make the job easier and more importantly safer, so that pilots time can be spent managing the aircraft rather than needing all his/her attention just keeping it going in the right direction.
I’m sure you will agree that the captain is still in charge on the aircraft so in fact his/her responsibility will not have changed from a captain 20 years ago, although the tools at his disposal have improved.