Rishworth or Parc or ContractAir or whoelse???
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Rishworth or Parc or ContractAir or whoelse???
I'm new to this site and am curious to know the rspective reputations of the major contract players.
From what Ive read and searched so far, ContractAir is popular, Rishworth not so much, and I don't know about Parc.
I'm considering a position as 73Ng Capt. with Jet Airways through Rishworth.
Your opinions, experiences are welcome and valuable to me.
Thanks,
Routechange
From what Ive read and searched so far, ContractAir is popular, Rishworth not so much, and I don't know about Parc.
I'm considering a position as 73Ng Capt. with Jet Airways through Rishworth.
Your opinions, experiences are welcome and valuable to me.
Thanks,
Routechange
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Try . HERE I think PARC. IASCO Rishworth. WASINC have good reputations. The Jet Airways deal is not that great (look in pprune under search function). Hope this helps
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I don,t know if IAC Pacific are in the running for this contract, however if they are, a search of this site for items on IAC Pacific could prove beneficial for anyone thinking of heading down that dark path.
Rishworths have long had people in KAL, but of late have seen their numbers dwindling, with disatisfied people changing contractors on renewal. Haven't heard of their behaviour with other contracts.
caveat emptor
Rishworths have long had people in KAL, but of late have seen their numbers dwindling, with disatisfied people changing contractors on renewal. Haven't heard of their behaviour with other contracts.
caveat emptor
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wouldn't go near rishworth unless you absolutely had to. down their part of the globe they have an absolutely awfull reputation. get everything and i mean everything written down if you do end up dealing with them. don't trust any and i mean any verbal assurances or offers they give unless written. i've heard that parc are a more reputable mob.
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Contracts
I would suggest speaking to each of the agencies offering B737NG contracts and see which one offers the best deal and can provide the most assurances.
Also re-itterate what Dai Chon Doi says: GET EVERYTHING IN WRITING!
Good luck
Also re-itterate what Dai Chon Doi says: GET EVERYTHING IN WRITING!
Good luck
Rishworth's.......Don't go near them!
I strongly urge all applicants to Rishworth to follow previous advice and either avoid them or at least get everything in writing.
It may be common knowledge that when you are going to pay for an endorsement following a "conditional offer of employment" or similar arrangement that if you do not pass you might well "do your dough!" however consider this:
A captain with my highly respected Australian regional airline was recently given once such offer in verbal form. Start dates where discussed. On successful completion of the 767 training, the said captain was informed that the goal posts have shifted and maximum age requirements had now precluded his employment.
While the requirements of RBA have changed, the lack of interest/coordination by Rishworth and RBA has seen him left out in the cold, minus the costs of the 767 training. Additional interview sim ride tests have also been introduced without any consultation which he may or may not have passed after completing the endorsement.
Paying for an endorsement is risky enough, any offer you receive over the phone should be considered general in nature only and may not apply to you particular circumstances, you should consider the contract before purchasing this product.
It may be common knowledge that when you are going to pay for an endorsement following a "conditional offer of employment" or similar arrangement that if you do not pass you might well "do your dough!" however consider this:
A captain with my highly respected Australian regional airline was recently given once such offer in verbal form. Start dates where discussed. On successful completion of the 767 training, the said captain was informed that the goal posts have shifted and maximum age requirements had now precluded his employment.
While the requirements of RBA have changed, the lack of interest/coordination by Rishworth and RBA has seen him left out in the cold, minus the costs of the 767 training. Additional interview sim ride tests have also been introduced without any consultation which he may or may not have passed after completing the endorsement.
Paying for an endorsement is risky enough, any offer you receive over the phone should be considered general in nature only and may not apply to you particular circumstances, you should consider the contract before purchasing this product.
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I was referred to by Contractair and they kept me informed as much as possible and if i needed to know anything i would either give them a call or send them an email. Ask to speak to Stephan or Sam and they will give you the lowdown on whats around and if not they make sure and get back to you.
Whatever happens,.. happens!
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BTW; anyone out there know how these agencies make their money and how much they get per placed captain?
Is ist a fixed one time comission or does it continue like a royalty for as long as the pilot stays at the given company, or does the Pilot actually work for the brokerage and they in turn charge the airline a fee for the pilots services and pay the Pilot the smallest salary that s/he is prepared to work for.
From what I have seen temp agencies do, where the "temp" employee gets as little as 60% of the amount that is charged for their services by the agency, I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing was happening with Pilots.
If that is the case I think I'll start an agency!
Is ist a fixed one time comission or does it continue like a royalty for as long as the pilot stays at the given company, or does the Pilot actually work for the brokerage and they in turn charge the airline a fee for the pilots services and pay the Pilot the smallest salary that s/he is prepared to work for.
From what I have seen temp agencies do, where the "temp" employee gets as little as 60% of the amount that is charged for their services by the agency, I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing was happening with Pilots.
If that is the case I think I'll start an agency!
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I have a sim assesment and interview with Rishworth coming up and would be interested in your opinions.
1. Why work for Rishworth and not Ryanair?
2. What's the form with the sim?
3. What to expect at the interview?
Many thanks
1. Why work for Rishworth and not Ryanair?
2. What's the form with the sim?
3. What to expect at the interview?
Many thanks
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Flufdriver
From what I know, the agency will take over all payments from the airline to you. So every month the agency gets your salary and their monthly fee and then passes your salary on to your account and they retain the fee. So it’s on a rolling basis, which means they won’t want to lose you and piss off the airline so some of them at least will try and solve your problems if they come up….
They won’t skim your salary from what I can see as it does them no good. Contract pilots get paid higher wages and that’s accepted by the airlines and the fee just goes on top of that. The fees can vary, they can be low if the agency really wants the business and keep other out, down to maybe $500 per pilot per month. To the likes of Japan where in my view the Japanese airlines are being robbed with fees as high as $3000 per month per pilot!!
You sign a contract with the agency and they sign one with the airline. You are a contractor and not an employee, which has benefits and disadvantages to you the pilot,
From what I know, the agency will take over all payments from the airline to you. So every month the agency gets your salary and their monthly fee and then passes your salary on to your account and they retain the fee. So it’s on a rolling basis, which means they won’t want to lose you and piss off the airline so some of them at least will try and solve your problems if they come up….
They won’t skim your salary from what I can see as it does them no good. Contract pilots get paid higher wages and that’s accepted by the airlines and the fee just goes on top of that. The fees can vary, they can be low if the agency really wants the business and keep other out, down to maybe $500 per pilot per month. To the likes of Japan where in my view the Japanese airlines are being robbed with fees as high as $3000 per month per pilot!!
You sign a contract with the agency and they sign one with the airline. You are a contractor and not an employee, which has benefits and disadvantages to you the pilot,
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Airbus Jockey
Are you a contract company masquerading as a pilot, cos a lot of what you say is absolute crap.
The contract companies with whom I have dealt, take all the cash and dish out that which you have agreed. They do not get a specific fee per month from the Airline. They take a percentage of your salary.
They have no interest in protecting your rights or position as they have you as a captive. It is not uncommon to get no response to enquiries or concerns. The contract company is more interested in staying tight with the Airline, as there are few airlines but plenty of pilots. Simple economics really.
I have been lied to, stolen from, sacked, and extorted by contract companies. Have taken one to court and recieved a favourable ruling with respect to theft of salary.
Won't skim your salary! Bollocks. Some will skim at every possible opportunity. There is one in the US that recently skimmed 10% off a safety bonus supposedly directed in toto to its pilots. What the F#$%k contribution might that organisation have had to safety. Skimming payout of accrued leave is another frequent scam.
With respect to your status. My previous contract specifically stated that I was an employee of the contract company. This position is supported by British case law. It dosen't matter a rats arse what you and the contract company agree, if you are subject to British Law Precedents, you are an employee of the contract company.
Having said that, I have been happy with my experiences with PARC, 1993-1995, and Cambridge Communication, 2004- present. Both have behaved honourably, and fulllfilled all that was contracted for. The others? Try searching this site for enteries on IAC Pacific, Rishworths, and BIU.
Don't trust the bastards. Get everything in writing and do not accept anyones word as to what will happen and how things are going to work. They won't!
Caveat Emptor
Tac On
Are you a contract company masquerading as a pilot, cos a lot of what you say is absolute crap.
The contract companies with whom I have dealt, take all the cash and dish out that which you have agreed. They do not get a specific fee per month from the Airline. They take a percentage of your salary.
They have no interest in protecting your rights or position as they have you as a captive. It is not uncommon to get no response to enquiries or concerns. The contract company is more interested in staying tight with the Airline, as there are few airlines but plenty of pilots. Simple economics really.
I have been lied to, stolen from, sacked, and extorted by contract companies. Have taken one to court and recieved a favourable ruling with respect to theft of salary.
Won't skim your salary! Bollocks. Some will skim at every possible opportunity. There is one in the US that recently skimmed 10% off a safety bonus supposedly directed in toto to its pilots. What the F#$%k contribution might that organisation have had to safety. Skimming payout of accrued leave is another frequent scam.
With respect to your status. My previous contract specifically stated that I was an employee of the contract company. This position is supported by British case law. It dosen't matter a rats arse what you and the contract company agree, if you are subject to British Law Precedents, you are an employee of the contract company.
Having said that, I have been happy with my experiences with PARC, 1993-1995, and Cambridge Communication, 2004- present. Both have behaved honourably, and fulllfilled all that was contracted for. The others? Try searching this site for enteries on IAC Pacific, Rishworths, and BIU.
Don't trust the bastards. Get everything in writing and do not accept anyones word as to what will happen and how things are going to work. They won't!
Caveat Emptor
Tac On
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TAC On
Get off your high horse and do a search on my posts where I clearly state I WOULD NEVER WORK FOR AN AGENCY
But what I said about the salaries is true. You get the market standard and then the fee goes on top of that.
It is a fee per month, every fool know that. The contract they sign clearly states that the total fee transferred to a B737 captain for example is US$8500 of which US$7500 is the captains salary
and US$1000 is for the agency. That is not skimming as the fee is negotiated on top of the wage.
I don't like the agencies because they don't and can't protect you. I had terrible trouble when the airline started unilaterally changing the terms and conditions of the contract I signed. The agency basically said tough and f**k off annoying me........But I do know how they work as I flew on contract before but I never will again. I see what's happening in India and it's all a big sham, pilots are
getting screwed all over the joint.
And they're robbing the airlines in Japan. I can't figure it out why the Japs let them get away with this....
You're wrong about the legal status as well I'm afraid....It does matter how the terminology is worded, a contractor has completely different rights then an employee. The law will back that up providing the conditions are adhered to.
Get off your high horse and do a search on my posts where I clearly state I WOULD NEVER WORK FOR AN AGENCY
But what I said about the salaries is true. You get the market standard and then the fee goes on top of that.
It is a fee per month, every fool know that. The contract they sign clearly states that the total fee transferred to a B737 captain for example is US$8500 of which US$7500 is the captains salary
and US$1000 is for the agency. That is not skimming as the fee is negotiated on top of the wage.
I don't like the agencies because they don't and can't protect you. I had terrible trouble when the airline started unilaterally changing the terms and conditions of the contract I signed. The agency basically said tough and f**k off annoying me........But I do know how they work as I flew on contract before but I never will again. I see what's happening in India and it's all a big sham, pilots are
getting screwed all over the joint.
And they're robbing the airlines in Japan. I can't figure it out why the Japs let them get away with this....
You're wrong about the legal status as well I'm afraid....It does matter how the terminology is worded, a contractor has completely different rights then an employee. The law will back that up providing the conditions are adhered to.
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TAC On,
There is some truth to what you say but not all.
Agencies can work to either a fixed fee, X amount of dollars per month or they can work on a percentage.
You seem, if you don't mind me saying, to have a chip on your shoulder that the agency are taking this amount of money from your salary, rarely does that happen, it is common practice that a fixed amount, or a percentage, is added to the salary and this is incorporated into the charge rate to the airline.
To explain this a little further, and as an example, if you are employed directly by an airline in the UK then they need to pay, on top of your salary, 12.8% NI contribution to the government. If you are employed via an agency then they would now have 12.8% in the kitty to pay the agency fee.
That 12.8% could never be claimed as part of your salary if it now paid to the agency and as a contractor you would be self employed thus the agency are not required to pay 12.8% to the goverment thus perhaps, just perhaps, this is where their fee comes from and not from the pilot salary.
To agree with you on another point however, Airbus Jockey is incorrect to say, to generalise, that contract pilots are paid more. Perhaps they may receive more in their hand but thereafter they are responsible for their own taxation, NI etc. and this brings it down somewhat.
There is some truth to what you say but not all.
Agencies can work to either a fixed fee, X amount of dollars per month or they can work on a percentage.
You seem, if you don't mind me saying, to have a chip on your shoulder that the agency are taking this amount of money from your salary, rarely does that happen, it is common practice that a fixed amount, or a percentage, is added to the salary and this is incorporated into the charge rate to the airline.
To explain this a little further, and as an example, if you are employed directly by an airline in the UK then they need to pay, on top of your salary, 12.8% NI contribution to the government. If you are employed via an agency then they would now have 12.8% in the kitty to pay the agency fee.
That 12.8% could never be claimed as part of your salary if it now paid to the agency and as a contractor you would be self employed thus the agency are not required to pay 12.8% to the goverment thus perhaps, just perhaps, this is where their fee comes from and not from the pilot salary.
To agree with you on another point however, Airbus Jockey is incorrect to say, to generalise, that contract pilots are paid more. Perhaps they may receive more in their hand but thereafter they are responsible for their own taxation, NI etc. and this brings it down somewhat.
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OneWorld,
Rarely is there such a thing as a 'tax free' salary. Whilst tax etc. may not be deducted from a contractors salary at source the individual is responsible for their own tax returns in the country in which they are domicile, this is the same for every self-employed individual, not just a pilot.
I know personally of many such pilots who, with the aid of an accountant, save all their receipts ad submit their tax returns. Should the individual choose not to do so then that is between him and taxman but now we are drifting away from the previous topics and that was, to the effect, that agencies 'take' from an individuals salary and contractors are paid more.
Rarely is there such a thing as a 'tax free' salary. Whilst tax etc. may not be deducted from a contractors salary at source the individual is responsible for their own tax returns in the country in which they are domicile, this is the same for every self-employed individual, not just a pilot.
I know personally of many such pilots who, with the aid of an accountant, save all their receipts ad submit their tax returns. Should the individual choose not to do so then that is between him and taxman but now we are drifting away from the previous topics and that was, to the effect, that agencies 'take' from an individuals salary and contractors are paid more.
Jolly Green Giant
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Phileas Fogg,
All I can say is take a trip sometime to Guernsey or Jersey or the Isle of Man! If the banks ever opened up their records you would see there are more pilots accounts there then those of the entire criminal underworld!!!!
All I can say is take a trip sometime to Guernsey or Jersey or the Isle of Man! If the banks ever opened up their records you would see there are more pilots accounts there then those of the entire criminal underworld!!!!
Last edited by OneWorld22; 7th Oct 2005 at 09:56.
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One World,
Yes, I have 2 IOM bank accounts myself. Many 'ordinary' people have such accounts, not just pilots, but because I have such an account, by your standards, then I am an income tax dodger!
You are obviously judging others by your own standards!
Yes, I have 2 IOM bank accounts myself. Many 'ordinary' people have such accounts, not just pilots, but because I have such an account, by your standards, then I am an income tax dodger!
You are obviously judging others by your own standards!
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Airbus Jockey
In his summing up of Readymix Concrete(South East) Ltd v Minister of Pensions and National Insurance, MacKenna J stated:
“Clause 30 of the contract declares him to be an independent contractor.
It may be stated here that whether the relation between the parties to the contract is that of master and servant or otherwise is a conclusion of law dependant upon the rights conferred and the duties imposed by the contract. If these are such that the relation is that of master and servant, it is irrelevant that the parties have declared it to be something else.”
The decision goes on further to clarify what constitutes a master servant relationship and provides a test for same.
Further reading on the subject is Montgomery V Johnson Underwood Ltd [2001] IRLR269.
I reiterate: as a contract pilot you are an employee.
As such you are entitled to certain “statutory” rights. The set up between contract companies and the airlines they tout for is a generally successful, (by pilot default), device designed to mask obligations of the employer to the detriment of the employee.
Some contract companies go further and use international companies legislation to defraud the taxation department’s of their respective governments.
All in all a wholly disreputable bunch of thieves and rouges who with a few exceptions should not be trusted, and if at all possible avoided.
Caveat Emptor
BTW. I have been a contract pilot for the past 12 years and have never seen a contract, as you describe, that quotes a total fee or what the contract company gets. All that I have seen give a net figure to the pilot, thats it. In my experience the compannies are very shy about revealing such detail. That of course is not to suggest that you are bullshifting, but it is obvious we have been looking at different contracts
Tac On
In his summing up of Readymix Concrete(South East) Ltd v Minister of Pensions and National Insurance, MacKenna J stated:
“Clause 30 of the contract declares him to be an independent contractor.
It may be stated here that whether the relation between the parties to the contract is that of master and servant or otherwise is a conclusion of law dependant upon the rights conferred and the duties imposed by the contract. If these are such that the relation is that of master and servant, it is irrelevant that the parties have declared it to be something else.”
The decision goes on further to clarify what constitutes a master servant relationship and provides a test for same.
Further reading on the subject is Montgomery V Johnson Underwood Ltd [2001] IRLR269.
I reiterate: as a contract pilot you are an employee.
As such you are entitled to certain “statutory” rights. The set up between contract companies and the airlines they tout for is a generally successful, (by pilot default), device designed to mask obligations of the employer to the detriment of the employee.
Some contract companies go further and use international companies legislation to defraud the taxation department’s of their respective governments.
All in all a wholly disreputable bunch of thieves and rouges who with a few exceptions should not be trusted, and if at all possible avoided.
Caveat Emptor
BTW. I have been a contract pilot for the past 12 years and have never seen a contract, as you describe, that quotes a total fee or what the contract company gets. All that I have seen give a net figure to the pilot, thats it. In my experience the compannies are very shy about revealing such detail. That of course is not to suggest that you are bullshifting, but it is obvious we have been looking at different contracts
Tac On
