Age 60 Battle vs ALPA
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Otterman: Sorry should have posted ' Laws are also changed regularly to keep up with a changing society' along with 'Contracts/T's and C's re-negotiated every year'.
It would seem nothing in life is guaranteed.
......best laid plans of mice and men and all that..................
It can't be nice for pilots like you who have probably been with an airline since leaving school and are now watching the 'goal posts' being shifted. Your argument is valid and understandable as opposed to LHR Rain who just wants his piece of 'command pie'.
Aviation is a second career for me and as such I have a different view.
It would seem nothing in life is guaranteed.
......best laid plans of mice and men and all that..................
It can't be nice for pilots like you who have probably been with an airline since leaving school and are now watching the 'goal posts' being shifted. Your argument is valid and understandable as opposed to LHR Rain who just wants his piece of 'command pie'.
Aviation is a second career for me and as such I have a different view.
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as opposed to LHR Rain who just wants his piece of 'command pie'.
And so do you Phoebe. The difference is I am playing by the rules and you want to move the goalposts to suit you. You knew the rules when you signed up. Life did not turn out like you planned, get over it. I don't hear any PAA pilots complaining and I know they were the cream of the profession unlike the pilots that surf this site.
And so do you Phoebe. The difference is I am playing by the rules and you want to move the goalposts to suit you. You knew the rules when you signed up. Life did not turn out like you planned, get over it. I don't hear any PAA pilots complaining and I know they were the cream of the profession unlike the pilots that surf this site.
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The problem is rainman that you do not seem to comprehend that the goal posts always move.
And how would you know that the PAA pilots never complain??You probably met one maybe, what a sweeping generalisation!!
Well I knew 2 of them, one didn't complain, the other was surprise surprise just like you always moaning and he is still in the right seat.
Now let me get this right, just to be perfectly clear, you are saying that the company you work for hired you with a retirement age limit of 60? or whatever and that when they move the goalposts to 65 then you will take your ball and go home???
Anyway it does not matter, you will have absolutely no say in where those goal posts are moved to.
Nuff said.
And how would you know that the PAA pilots never complain??You probably met one maybe, what a sweeping generalisation!!
Well I knew 2 of them, one didn't complain, the other was surprise surprise just like you always moaning and he is still in the right seat.
Now let me get this right, just to be perfectly clear, you are saying that the company you work for hired you with a retirement age limit of 60? or whatever and that when they move the goalposts to 65 then you will take your ball and go home???
Anyway it does not matter, you will have absolutely no say in where those goal posts are moved to.
Nuff said.
Last edited by faheel; 17th Sep 2005 at 22:48.
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LHR Rain: Sooooo wrong - the age I am now I doubt if I will ever get command and when I signed up I did so in the knowledge that the 'goal posts' would more than likely be moved; it's a fact of life and as such I have never trusted my future to any management (or government for that matter) preferring to spread my pension over a few companies and invest in property. It would be very naive of me to act otherwise as I've heard too many dreadful stories about mismanagement in aviation and believe me I feel bad for everyone of those guys out there who have lost their jobs and their pensions and had to start all over again.
Aviation is no longer the cushy career it once was where the expectation was to sign up after school and work until retirement with the same company under the same rules of engagement nowadays it's a job in a very competitive market where accountants rule the day......as you so rightly say life doesn't always work out the way you planned; get over it and get on with it .
LHR Rain I really hope you get your command soon and you and Otterman must continue to fight your corner for the status quo but I can't help feeling that's a bit unrealistic.
I apologise if I've been a bit harsh and/or flippant in past posts that wasn't my intention it just seems so obvious to me that people are healthier and living longer and companies expect more so of course there will be changes.
Aviation is no longer the cushy career it once was where the expectation was to sign up after school and work until retirement with the same company under the same rules of engagement nowadays it's a job in a very competitive market where accountants rule the day......as you so rightly say life doesn't always work out the way you planned; get over it and get on with it .
LHR Rain I really hope you get your command soon and you and Otterman must continue to fight your corner for the status quo but I can't help feeling that's a bit unrealistic.
I apologise if I've been a bit harsh and/or flippant in past posts that wasn't my intention it just seems so obvious to me that people are healthier and living longer and companies expect more so of course there will be changes.
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Here's a depressing thought.
I think it might get worse, the writing is already on the wall. Most airline costs are fixed in a narrow range, fuel, lease costs, aircraft prices, interest costs, etc ,etc. The only cost area that is not fixed in a narrow band is employee cost/productivity which varies quite widely.
It will soon become a dog eat dog situation where employees of various airlines are pitted against each other to see who can produce the lowest unit cost. Some people are already paying for their own type qualification.
Free market competition is going to drive down flight crew benefits, and I suspect "automatic" promotions by seniority will be eroded as contract pilot work will eventually replace it.
Age 60 will become irrelevant as promotions will go to the lowest bidder.
G
Damned goalpost moved again.
I think it might get worse, the writing is already on the wall. Most airline costs are fixed in a narrow range, fuel, lease costs, aircraft prices, interest costs, etc ,etc. The only cost area that is not fixed in a narrow band is employee cost/productivity which varies quite widely.
It will soon become a dog eat dog situation where employees of various airlines are pitted against each other to see who can produce the lowest unit cost. Some people are already paying for their own type qualification.
Free market competition is going to drive down flight crew benefits, and I suspect "automatic" promotions by seniority will be eroded as contract pilot work will eventually replace it.
Age 60 will become irrelevant as promotions will go to the lowest bidder.
G
Damned goalpost moved again.
Last edited by ZQA297/30; 19th Sep 2005 at 22:28.
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My two cents
When I started flying, age 60 seemed so far away I didn't even consider it as a limit. As I hit my 40s I heard about "age discrimination" but it seemed like some else's problem.
At age 50 ten more years seems like a long time to go.
Now that I hit age 60, discrimination suddenly slammed me in the face. I am healthy (mostly because I have worked out and kept myself mentally challenged most of my life) and now somebody wants me to retire so they can take my job - not because of diminished skill, or health.
LHR is obviously an immature, insecure little individual and I feel for those FOs that will one day have to fly to his right.
When I started flying it took 10 years just to get out of the FEs seat. To be a Captain took 20 or so years. I'll bet LHR has only been in the business for less than 5 years. How about it LHR?
Nope, I am fit and capable and I could not give two cents for LHR's desire to advance because he wants capable people to retire. Rather, he should enjoy his time in the right seat and LEARN from us old guys.
But he already knows it all, doesn't he.
At age 50 ten more years seems like a long time to go.
Now that I hit age 60, discrimination suddenly slammed me in the face. I am healthy (mostly because I have worked out and kept myself mentally challenged most of my life) and now somebody wants me to retire so they can take my job - not because of diminished skill, or health.
LHR is obviously an immature, insecure little individual and I feel for those FOs that will one day have to fly to his right.
When I started flying it took 10 years just to get out of the FEs seat. To be a Captain took 20 or so years. I'll bet LHR has only been in the business for less than 5 years. How about it LHR?
Nope, I am fit and capable and I could not give two cents for LHR's desire to advance because he wants capable people to retire. Rather, he should enjoy his time in the right seat and LEARN from us old guys.
But he already knows it all, doesn't he.
Last edited by Flying Guy; 19th Sep 2005 at 15:17.
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Flying Guy couldn't agree more
Unfortunately as the retirement age for those with experience and wisdom rightly increases the age at which young pretenders believe they know it all sadly reduces.
Makes me want to stay till 70 to protect the public from this little "shower"of self importance.
58
Unfortunately as the retirement age for those with experience and wisdom rightly increases the age at which young pretenders believe they know it all sadly reduces.
Makes me want to stay till 70 to protect the public from this little "shower"of self importance.
58
Does anyone know who LHR Rain is? Maybe they could send me a PM. I really believe the guy needs some serious counselling! And I know a guy who would happily "read his bumps"
30 west going east. Irrascible Italian- American 58 y/o Captain explains existance of a breakaway union trying to change age 60 and gives 50 y/o copilot an app. Great, says I, will fill it out now......and join when I'm 59!!!! Major blowup on the left..much glee on the right.
31 March 2003: 9 years later, resigned that 1 year and 2 days from today I'm off to retirement with a reasonable pension. Then the judge ruled and down came my world. 60% of my pension gone. Moved the golf posts were!! Changed my goals big time. I'd have moved to the right seat ... anything to keep a pay check so that my wife(#1 incidentally) and I could educate our 2 teenage daughters.
Times change, the age 60 WILL be changed. Too late for me so I'm in a new career passing on my 40+ years in aviation to other folk.
(incidentally the feds put the rule in safety FARS not licence; thus congress HAS to act for it to change)
So LHR et al you will see a change and you will be the beneficiaries. In the meantime let us oldsters bemoan the injustice and don't sabotage us when we try and change the rules.
Good on you GC for starting the thread. PM me!
31 March 2003: 9 years later, resigned that 1 year and 2 days from today I'm off to retirement with a reasonable pension. Then the judge ruled and down came my world. 60% of my pension gone. Moved the golf posts were!! Changed my goals big time. I'd have moved to the right seat ... anything to keep a pay check so that my wife(#1 incidentally) and I could educate our 2 teenage daughters.
Times change, the age 60 WILL be changed. Too late for me so I'm in a new career passing on my 40+ years in aviation to other folk.
(incidentally the feds put the rule in safety FARS not licence; thus congress HAS to act for it to change)
So LHR et al you will see a change and you will be the beneficiaries. In the meantime let us oldsters bemoan the injustice and don't sabotage us when we try and change the rules.
Good on you GC for starting the thread. PM me!
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_ _ _ _ Age 65....?
The airline career has deteriorated into a "blue collar" job. We are little more than truck/bus/taxi drivers with wings, ...stuck in the night shift with relentless challenges to our hard earned benefits, pay and quality of life standards.
What are our expectations? What can we do? What can we hope for? The airline business has become a mass transit industry. "Now everyone can fly" is the logo of paperless low cost carrier Air Asia. Carriers with the cheapest fares rule the sky. It's practical reality.
...and most pilots soon to be working for common wages will have a hard time earning expected retirement portfolios at any age.
What are our expectations? What can we do? What can we hope for? The airline business has become a mass transit industry. "Now everyone can fly" is the logo of paperless low cost carrier Air Asia. Carriers with the cheapest fares rule the sky. It's practical reality.
...and most pilots soon to be working for common wages will have a hard time earning expected retirement portfolios at any age.
