Age 60
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Age 60
I've just returned from some years abroad, am 59 and current on the B757 and B737-300. Are there realistic possibilities of continuing past 60 ? I've heard that airlines are still using France/difficulties with their Insurers as bars to hiring. What's the situation with Ryanair/EasyJet (as opposed to what they might say officially) ? (Apologies if this subject's been covered before recently, but am fairly new to Pprune).
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Why would you want to fly past 60 years old? Enjoy your retirement, you earned it! I am sure that there are plently of young pilots who would want the job you are taking that have families to feed.
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pension (due to various airline closures over past 20 years) is amazingly small.. quite a few pilots are in similar positions
Last edited by 73jock; 26th Jul 2005 at 12:45.
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Funny you should mention it
But - to your immediate situation - have you investigated simulator instruction positions?
But - to your immediate situation - have you investigated simulator instruction positions?
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Past 60
To 73jock: A number of operators (Ryan Air and Easy jet amongst them) have been disregarding the French ruling against Captains over the age of 60 flying through their airspace. Whilst generally trying to ensure they aren't actually rostered to fly into a French destination, they have been overflying France en route to wherever. However, they have recently been informed by their Insurers that this practice nullifies their insurance! Armed with that information, I'm sure the airlines will be thinking again about their currently employed 60 year old Captains. I reckon they may well be offered the right seat or end of contract?
As for you needing to work beyond 60, I'm suprised LHR rain thought this unecessary. Perhaps he is fortunate enough to have secured a job with a healthy pension plan included and hasn't suffered numerous airline collapses, redundancies/ furloughs, etc.
Lucky man!
Anyway, good luck with your plans to extend your working life.
As for you needing to work beyond 60, I'm suprised LHR rain thought this unecessary. Perhaps he is fortunate enough to have secured a job with a healthy pension plan included and hasn't suffered numerous airline collapses, redundancies/ furloughs, etc.
Lucky man!
Anyway, good luck with your plans to extend your working life.
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73jock
To my limited knowledge, in some EU countries it's possible (Denmark?). It has to do with the EU anti discrimination law which is not already in force in most EU countries.
Couple of months ago there was a similar thread with more info.
regards
Couple of months ago there was a similar thread with more info.
regards
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What's the state of the law ?
Max Revs: thank you.
What's the state of the law here and EU-wide regarding age 60 ? It thought that the French were acting in contravention of EU law ?
What do the Insurers base their ruling on ?
Is any group pushing the case for freedom to continue to fly after 60 ?
What's the state of the law here and EU-wide regarding age 60 ? It thought that the French were acting in contravention of EU law ?
What do the Insurers base their ruling on ?
Is any group pushing the case for freedom to continue to fly after 60 ?
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Just for clarification, easyJet does not overfly France with pilots over 60. The pilots they have that are currently over 60 fly the Scottish routes, BFS, AMS and ATH. Also BTS, I believe. In fact, this rule as everyone knows becomes illegal on 1st October, 2006. easyJet is using this rule to cull over 60's pilots; several have been told they will not be kept on once they reach that age.
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Max Revs
You are wrong regarding the situation at EZY disregarding the French laws. Some good guys have sadly recently left because of the regulations. One guy left literally a couple of weeks ago to go to..................Ryanair! EZY could not offer him a contract beyond age 60 whereas FR did.
Captains retained on over 60s contracts (just a few employed pre-2001) are limited in their routes and operating bases. They do not overfly France and have not done for some considerable time, so your comment about the insurers doesn't add up.
Balpa have been addressing this, with the full support of Easyjet, since June 2004. Since some time prior to this EZY has been complying with the French ruling.
The EU ruling is expected to change in mid/late 2006 but it yet unclear whether France will join in with everyone else.
The current 'sticking points' are France, Portugal and Italy although only France is fully enforcing the no overfly rule as far as I am aware.
You are wrong regarding the situation at EZY disregarding the French laws. Some good guys have sadly recently left because of the regulations. One guy left literally a couple of weeks ago to go to..................Ryanair! EZY could not offer him a contract beyond age 60 whereas FR did.
Captains retained on over 60s contracts (just a few employed pre-2001) are limited in their routes and operating bases. They do not overfly France and have not done for some considerable time, so your comment about the insurers doesn't add up.
Balpa have been addressing this, with the full support of Easyjet, since June 2004. Since some time prior to this EZY has been complying with the French ruling.
The EU ruling is expected to change in mid/late 2006 but it yet unclear whether France will join in with everyone else.
The current 'sticking points' are France, Portugal and Italy although only France is fully enforcing the no overfly rule as far as I am aware.
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Being only ten years away from 60 has started my attention to this topic.
I want to keep flying after 60, because I love my job, I have a family to feed and my retirement found ... does not look exiting at all.
Colonel Klink mentioned that the 60 rules becomes illegal on 1st October 2006. Can You tell me about it or advise where I can get more info.
Thanks
I want to keep flying after 60, because I love my job, I have a family to feed and my retirement found ... does not look exiting at all.
Colonel Klink mentioned that the 60 rules becomes illegal on 1st October 2006. Can You tell me about it or advise where I can get more info.
Thanks
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Everyone on this board seems to be smypathic to raising the retirement age past 60 which I have a huge problem with. Let me explain: study after study has shown that you will make the same money in your career no matter how long you work so you might as well take the money when you are younger and get out of the way for some younger pilots. Everyone knew the rules with regards to the retirement age when they signed up for this gig and now a select few want to change the rules in the twilight of their careers. That is ashame! Not everyone can work for Delta, Cathay, or BA but you work with the hand that was dealt you instead of changing horses midstream. Lets give France some credit here. They are standing up for the pilot industry and trying to protect the profession from further errosion. Haven't we had enough errosion in the last 10 yrs?
I suspect that most of the pilots that want the reitrement age raised have not had one wife and pretty much let ruined their finances on their own. The industry should not have to pay or be ruined by personal behavior or just bad luck. Keep the age where is belongs, where it has been for the last 40 yrs, and where it is safe for everyone!
I suspect that most of the pilots that want the reitrement age raised have not had one wife and pretty much let ruined their finances on their own. The industry should not have to pay or be ruined by personal behavior or just bad luck. Keep the age where is belongs, where it has been for the last 40 yrs, and where it is safe for everyone!
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Planoramix,
The EU law to which I was referring is an age discrimination law which becomes effective on the date I mentioned. It then becomes illegal to discriminate on the basis of age. Refer to Balpa for more information. The French and others will have no option but to fall into line.
Rememeber, the history of the Age 60 rule, especially as applied in the States has no physiological basis at all, I believe it was introduced among the legacy carriers many years ago to speed up promotion for the younger pilots because as the airlines expanded post-war there were many young Captains and far too many FO's would never have got a Command. I believe the same was introduced in France because of the strong Air France pilots Union. Rememeber, in the States crew members can fly in the RHS until 65, if I'm not mistaken so this ruling was industrially based only.
easyJet has said it has "startling new evidence" to suggest there is a slowdown after 62, but no study to my knowledge has been carried out and the people who would have been responsible may have a financial aspect at heart to cull older pilots because of the Loyalty Bonus.
Regards,
CK.
The EU law to which I was referring is an age discrimination law which becomes effective on the date I mentioned. It then becomes illegal to discriminate on the basis of age. Refer to Balpa for more information. The French and others will have no option but to fall into line.
Rememeber, the history of the Age 60 rule, especially as applied in the States has no physiological basis at all, I believe it was introduced among the legacy carriers many years ago to speed up promotion for the younger pilots because as the airlines expanded post-war there were many young Captains and far too many FO's would never have got a Command. I believe the same was introduced in France because of the strong Air France pilots Union. Rememeber, in the States crew members can fly in the RHS until 65, if I'm not mistaken so this ruling was industrially based only.
easyJet has said it has "startling new evidence" to suggest there is a slowdown after 62, but no study to my knowledge has been carried out and the people who would have been responsible may have a financial aspect at heart to cull older pilots because of the Loyalty Bonus.
Regards,
CK.
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73jock,back to the subject..JAR-FCL(as june1-2000)1.060 says in essence that one can fly in the EU as a pilot in air transport Operations from 60-65 birthday(only one 60 codger in the cockpit).
Several countries have made an EXEMPTION to this rule,but several airlines have 'forced ' their guys to go to 65 for the pension...
Cheers
Several countries have made an EXEMPTION to this rule,but several airlines have 'forced ' their guys to go to 65 for the pension...
Cheers
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Why is it that someone always comes up with multiple-divorce as the reason for financial strain in retiring pilots.
Whereas it is true that flying does put strain on some marriages, many/most pilots have no alimony problems. The incredible predatory competition that is a function of modern airline ops has busted far more retirees than divorce.
In real terms, airfares today are less than 10% of what they were relative to other costs 50 years ago. Much of that has come out of employees pockets one way or another. Surprise! The hardest hit are the pilots
That has sunk many pensions, not least amongst the US majors who were always far better paid than most of us.
Even the most prudent financial management could not have forseen what happened to airlines post 9/11.
So we can thank Bin Laden and his comrades for the final nail in the coffin.
Whereas it is true that flying does put strain on some marriages, many/most pilots have no alimony problems. The incredible predatory competition that is a function of modern airline ops has busted far more retirees than divorce.
In real terms, airfares today are less than 10% of what they were relative to other costs 50 years ago. Much of that has come out of employees pockets one way or another. Surprise! The hardest hit are the pilots
That has sunk many pensions, not least amongst the US majors who were always far better paid than most of us.
Even the most prudent financial management could not have forseen what happened to airlines post 9/11.
So we can thank Bin Laden and his comrades for the final nail in the coffin.
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Colonel Klink, thank You for the accurate information.
In our family life as well as in our career we look at positive individuals to show us ways towards improvement.
When my crew splits up at the end of a short or long haul flight I like to get the feeling that everyone enjoyed the team work and learned from it.
With that good feeling I go home to my beautiful wife and son.
I am sorry for You, LHR Rain.
p.s.
In the fictitious scenario of LHR Rain undergoing brain surgery I wonder if he will feel safer going for a 65 years old surgeon with the most advanced expertise in laser micro-surgery or a 35 years old surgeon doing it the way "it has been for the last 40 years" .................................
In our family life as well as in our career we look at positive individuals to show us ways towards improvement.
When my crew splits up at the end of a short or long haul flight I like to get the feeling that everyone enjoyed the team work and learned from it.
With that good feeling I go home to my beautiful wife and son.
I am sorry for You, LHR Rain.
p.s.
In the fictitious scenario of LHR Rain undergoing brain surgery I wonder if he will feel safer going for a 65 years old surgeon with the most advanced expertise in laser micro-surgery or a 35 years old surgeon doing it the way "it has been for the last 40 years" .................................