Big increase in profits at BA
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I started this thread in the full expectation that it would invite BA knockers. Plenty have surfaced!!
Whether it is SPAMs (a colloquial term for AMericans) BACX, or GSS. It would seem, we succeeded!
I am only surprised nobody quibbled with the term, "the WORLD's most profitable airline"
So far, nobody has!
Looks like BA must be a pretty good outfit after all!
Whether it is SPAMs (a colloquial term for AMericans) BACX, or GSS. It would seem, we succeeded!
I am only surprised nobody quibbled with the term, "the WORLD's most profitable airline"
So far, nobody has!
Looks like BA must be a pretty good outfit after all!
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Debt reduction is a necessity to raise BA's debt rating and give it access to cheaper finance. Hopefully another few years of good profits will give the bankers the courage to fund the 747, 767 and early 777 replacements.
What kind of axe WW plans to swing at the SH operation can only be dreaded if your route can't support a 319 or better, if his EI "plan" is any guide.
What kind of axe WW plans to swing at the SH operation can only be dreaded if your route can't support a 319 or better, if his EI "plan" is any guide.
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4468 wether you like it or not BACX , GSS and all the other subsiderys exist, now to the paying public they assume that we will all be getting the bonus and this is not true. pax will be travelling all over europe and the British isles thinking they are flying BA and they are!! so why cant we have the bonus to? i assume that the former BAR operation that has been absorbed into BACX wont be getting it? oh Hang on pink elephant just flew past the window as i typed that statement!!!!!
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Hi Skylion,
Take the point entirely regarding Chapter 11 protection in the US, so consequently on these results I will keep hold of my shares for a while longer. I think there is every reason to be positive about the future profitability of BA, but one cannot deny the looming spectre of increased costs due to higher fuel prices against BA's ability to grasp the nettle of further efficiency. We shall see.....
Take the point entirely regarding Chapter 11 protection in the US, so consequently on these results I will keep hold of my shares for a while longer. I think there is every reason to be positive about the future profitability of BA, but one cannot deny the looming spectre of increased costs due to higher fuel prices against BA's ability to grasp the nettle of further efficiency. We shall see.....
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marlowe
GSS are not a subsidery (sic) of BA. They are contracted to fly BAWC's freight. If BAWC (ie BA) make a profit from that arrangement: Great!
If GSS also make a profit: Great! Presumably they will reward THEIR employees accordingly.
I very much doubt the "paying public" either know or care what your remuneration is.
And as far as pax; "thinking they are flying BA and they are!!" If you have experienced the real BA shorthaul product, particularly out of LHR, you will know that the experience of flying from the regions really isn't very similar.
Which is a shame, because it used to be identical.
Were you referring to just the "former BAR" cabin crew receiving a bonus? Can you explain why they shouldn't?
If at some future date, BACX were to actually make a profit, and BA did not, would you expect the 60,000 mainline employees to share in any BACX bonus?
GSS are not a subsidery (sic) of BA. They are contracted to fly BAWC's freight. If BAWC (ie BA) make a profit from that arrangement: Great!
If GSS also make a profit: Great! Presumably they will reward THEIR employees accordingly.
I very much doubt the "paying public" either know or care what your remuneration is.
And as far as pax; "thinking they are flying BA and they are!!" If you have experienced the real BA shorthaul product, particularly out of LHR, you will know that the experience of flying from the regions really isn't very similar.
Which is a shame, because it used to be identical.
Were you referring to just the "former BAR" cabin crew receiving a bonus? Can you explain why they shouldn't?
If at some future date, BACX were to actually make a profit, and BA did not, would you expect the 60,000 mainline employees to share in any BACX bonus?
Last edited by 4468; 15th May 2005 at 12:57.
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Great results; but skim the cream off and there are still a few major issues, in particular the very steep pension deficit..( oops, we're supposed to brush these things under the carpet and they'll go away).
Now awaiting the "what pension deficit?" replies!!
Now awaiting the "what pension deficit?" replies!!
Last edited by jerrystinger; 15th May 2005 at 20:05.
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I applaud BA for their good efforts post 9/11, but service standards have declined considerably. However, commercial aviation is akin to taking a bus nowadays so maybe I'm being too nostalgic!
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Dear Bluffoldseadog
If you don't want your voucher next time then simply give it back or to someone that appreciates the fact that something is better than nothing considering the lack of money we're making as a wholly owned subsidiary............. Congrats to Mr Eddington otherwise I don't think we would still be here....
If you don't want your voucher next time then simply give it back or to someone that appreciates the fact that something is better than nothing considering the lack of money we're making as a wholly owned subsidiary............. Congrats to Mr Eddington otherwise I don't think we would still be here....
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We at Cranebank had the benefit of an address on Monday with regard to the profit and future costs cutting. For example we were told that BA staff are one of the UK's worst companies for sickness with in excess of 3000 staff reporting sick every week. This is estimated to cost BA in excess of £60 millions per annum in lost production and this figure does not take into account overtime costs. The sick figures break down further with over 300 Cabin crew going sick daily at LHR. Willy has a lot more work to do and the sooner he starts the better.
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BA's profits are extraordinary in the light of an industry in absolute meltdown across the pond. UA, Delta, NW, Continental, AA, US Air: all teetering on the edge.
Their is a systemmic fault in the deregulated airline business - there is no rational pricing model, perhaps abetted by the relatively low barriers to entry.
BA will, however, soon face, along with the rest of the industry a new crisis. Either Iran will be attacked to stem its nuclear ambitions, or North Korea will require military intervention for the same reason, or bird flu will jump the species barrier in the Far East, or................ the list is endless. When it hits, revenue streams will collapse, and this time all the buffers gained by selling assets are gone - we've already sold them all.
Cost cutting at BA will have to be on a scale not seen before, as it is at all US airlines. Forget your pension, forget pay rises ever again, look for pay freezes, outright cuts for flightcrew, massive cuts in back-office numbers, wholesale outsourcing of functions like engineering, ramp, baggage services. I suspect that "off-shoring" of expensive functions like flight crew and cabin services will be required too. Latvian pilots and Polish CC on a three weeks on, one off basis with free positioning tickets and barrack housing provided by BA for their spell in UK - wages at triple the East European norm and one quarter of ours? Why not?
Being an airline employee is going to be like being a soldier in a new kind of economic war, one that you just cant win.
We are all going to have to accept that we have made a very bad career choice - just how does a pilot "work on into retirement" in our brave new age of no final salary pensions and investments that do not grow. You HAVE to retire at 60. Just what skills can he or she offer an employer apart from flying - very skilled but very specialised.
And like any war there will be and are casualties. The A320 P1 who fainted at check-in the other day, the rising toll of Long Term Sick, the marriages going under, the likely need for all SH to fly 900 hours a year "the BA way" - i.e. fixed-links, CAT turn-arounds, FTL limit duty days, multiple earlies off another min rest nightstop, etc etc.
But N.B. even that will not be enough - profitability on a scale big enough to justify the investment in the industry will remain elusive. BA will not be around in anything like its current form in three years, let alone ten. The FSS will be closed to existing entrants, very little direct employment will remain and that which does will be on T's and C's that will make, for P2 pilots at any rate, being a London tube driver look an attractive option.
Those outside BA know how hard it is, but my gues is that it will be getting a lot worse all round. Anyone care to confirm the rumour that 17 British Midland co-pilots from the A320 fleet have resigned this year?
There are sectors of the economy making money. Banks, oil companies, some sectors of the leisure industry. Get out, get a middle management job with one of these areas, go home at night and be there when your kids grow up, even if its just at brekfast and at the weekend, (you wont be doing that on LHR Shorthaul A320, thats for sure).
Wannabes beware - you are entering an industry where you will have huge practical and legal and moral responsabilities, but no chance of an equity stake worth having in your firm, no chance of "moving across" at the same seniority level to a different employer, no transferable skill outside flying, no Final Salary Pension to retire onto, and a mandatory retirement age of 60, at which, if you make it, you will be knackered. Equally, you will be loathed by your employer as a burdensome expense and treated with contempt as often as not.
BA's profits are all well and good, but it is not enough, and short of radical change in the industry, it never will be.
Their is a systemmic fault in the deregulated airline business - there is no rational pricing model, perhaps abetted by the relatively low barriers to entry.
BA will, however, soon face, along with the rest of the industry a new crisis. Either Iran will be attacked to stem its nuclear ambitions, or North Korea will require military intervention for the same reason, or bird flu will jump the species barrier in the Far East, or................ the list is endless. When it hits, revenue streams will collapse, and this time all the buffers gained by selling assets are gone - we've already sold them all.
Cost cutting at BA will have to be on a scale not seen before, as it is at all US airlines. Forget your pension, forget pay rises ever again, look for pay freezes, outright cuts for flightcrew, massive cuts in back-office numbers, wholesale outsourcing of functions like engineering, ramp, baggage services. I suspect that "off-shoring" of expensive functions like flight crew and cabin services will be required too. Latvian pilots and Polish CC on a three weeks on, one off basis with free positioning tickets and barrack housing provided by BA for their spell in UK - wages at triple the East European norm and one quarter of ours? Why not?
Being an airline employee is going to be like being a soldier in a new kind of economic war, one that you just cant win.
We are all going to have to accept that we have made a very bad career choice - just how does a pilot "work on into retirement" in our brave new age of no final salary pensions and investments that do not grow. You HAVE to retire at 60. Just what skills can he or she offer an employer apart from flying - very skilled but very specialised.
And like any war there will be and are casualties. The A320 P1 who fainted at check-in the other day, the rising toll of Long Term Sick, the marriages going under, the likely need for all SH to fly 900 hours a year "the BA way" - i.e. fixed-links, CAT turn-arounds, FTL limit duty days, multiple earlies off another min rest nightstop, etc etc.
But N.B. even that will not be enough - profitability on a scale big enough to justify the investment in the industry will remain elusive. BA will not be around in anything like its current form in three years, let alone ten. The FSS will be closed to existing entrants, very little direct employment will remain and that which does will be on T's and C's that will make, for P2 pilots at any rate, being a London tube driver look an attractive option.
Those outside BA know how hard it is, but my gues is that it will be getting a lot worse all round. Anyone care to confirm the rumour that 17 British Midland co-pilots from the A320 fleet have resigned this year?
There are sectors of the economy making money. Banks, oil companies, some sectors of the leisure industry. Get out, get a middle management job with one of these areas, go home at night and be there when your kids grow up, even if its just at brekfast and at the weekend, (you wont be doing that on LHR Shorthaul A320, thats for sure).
Wannabes beware - you are entering an industry where you will have huge practical and legal and moral responsabilities, but no chance of an equity stake worth having in your firm, no chance of "moving across" at the same seniority level to a different employer, no transferable skill outside flying, no Final Salary Pension to retire onto, and a mandatory retirement age of 60, at which, if you make it, you will be knackered. Equally, you will be loathed by your employer as a burdensome expense and treated with contempt as often as not.
BA's profits are all well and good, but it is not enough, and short of radical change in the industry, it never will be.
Last edited by ShortfinalFred; 19th May 2005 at 09:58.
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HZ123 - you are right - there soon wont be. Look at MG Rover, Steel, Coal, UK manufacturing, the list is endless and its civil aviation's turn to go onto it. We cannot make sufficient money to justify the investment in the industry here, and have not for quite some time. Re-train and get out whilst you still can or pray your retirementt comes up before much longer. There is no future in UK civil aviation.
I could go further and say UK plc itself is poised on the edge of the cliff too, but its a bit beyond the remit of this board.
Employment growth of late had been solely in the public sector. Tax as a propertion of GDP is ever-rising and eroding our precious little competitiveness in world markets. All manufactured goods are decreasing in price meanwhile, as the Chinese juggernaut gathers pace.
Without a radical re-appraisal of our education, tax and industry policy UK is going to become a terrifying place to live - high unemployment, high taxes, plummeting quality of life.
Go to China or India and see what they have done - they are unbeatable. Without truly radical change the UK is in a lot of trouble to - in fact all Western economies long-term , but thats another matter!
I could go further and say UK plc itself is poised on the edge of the cliff too, but its a bit beyond the remit of this board.
Employment growth of late had been solely in the public sector. Tax as a propertion of GDP is ever-rising and eroding our precious little competitiveness in world markets. All manufactured goods are decreasing in price meanwhile, as the Chinese juggernaut gathers pace.
Without a radical re-appraisal of our education, tax and industry policy UK is going to become a terrifying place to live - high unemployment, high taxes, plummeting quality of life.
Go to China or India and see what they have done - they are unbeatable. Without truly radical change the UK is in a lot of trouble to - in fact all Western economies long-term , but thats another matter!
Last edited by ShortfinalFred; 19th May 2005 at 10:17.
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Fred,
You must be a laugh a minute when out of an evening
£10 says that 3 years will prove 90% of your theory to be c$%p!
BA is making big money whilst large inefficiencies still exist in the company. For one, whilst not being ignorant to the problems that the industry faces, I think the future is relatively rosy
Regards,
Cuban_8.
You must be a laugh a minute when out of an evening
£10 says that 3 years will prove 90% of your theory to be c$%p!
BA is making big money whilst large inefficiencies still exist in the company. For one, whilst not being ignorant to the problems that the industry faces, I think the future is relatively rosy
Regards,
Cuban_8.
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Exactly C8.
Right now the loco's are bleating about stiff competition and fuel prices while their share prices are up and down like a whore's drawers. When EZY trumpeted its 21% increase in pax over last year with great fanfare, they also neglected to mention that fleet size and route network had also increased by the same amount, thereby indicating precisely nothing, and explaining the large round of indifference in the City.
Meanwhile the World's favourite casually posts nearly half a billion profit, up 80% on last year. If this is the worst time to be running an airline, I think the numbers speak for themselves.
Right now the loco's are bleating about stiff competition and fuel prices while their share prices are up and down like a whore's drawers. When EZY trumpeted its 21% increase in pax over last year with great fanfare, they also neglected to mention that fleet size and route network had also increased by the same amount, thereby indicating precisely nothing, and explaining the large round of indifference in the City.
Meanwhile the World's favourite casually posts nearly half a billion profit, up 80% on last year. If this is the worst time to be running an airline, I think the numbers speak for themselves.
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Well he does have comic value! 
MG Rover - been in trouble for 30 odd years, surprised it took this long. They had crap products so no surprises. BA - World Class product
Steel, Coal, UK Manufacturing - true, outsourced to economies with cheaper labour costs, but not comparable industries to BA.
Weren't they meant to come last year? Truth is this is a myth. People come here for higher wages, not for the same wages in their homeland. So far the hoardes of Polish pilots haven't appeared. Employers in the East with a highly skilled workforce will have to up their game in terms of salaries to keep staff as they leg it to better paid jobs either in East or West. Next it'll be Mongolian pilots.......
My investment on average returned 10% over the last 3 months alone Yep they've taken a beating recently just as stocks did in 1929, 1970, 1989 etc etc What goes down tends to go back up again, take the long term view or sack your IFA
BA has a bright future with an excellent product. All the sectors you mention can be easily be outsourced. Aviation can't be outsourced in the same way. Lot's of barriers to entry.
Full marks to BA for turning a profit.
MG Rover - been in trouble for 30 odd years, surprised it took this long. They had crap products so no surprises. BA - World Class product
Steel, Coal, UK Manufacturing - true, outsourced to economies with cheaper labour costs, but not comparable industries to BA.
Latvian pilots and Polish CC on a three weeks on, one off basis with free positioning tickets and barrack housing provided by BA for their spell in UK - wages at triple the East European norm and one quarter of ours? Why not?
Truth is this is a myth. People come here for higher wages, not for the same wages in their homeland. So far the hoardes of Polish pilots haven't appeared. Employers in the East with a highly skilled workforce will have to up their game in terms of salaries to keep staff as they leg it to better paid jobs either in East or West. Next it'll be Mongolian pilots.......My investment on average returned 10% over the last 3 months alone
Yep they've taken a beating recently just as stocks did in 1929, 1970, 1989 etc etc What goes down tends to go back up again, take the long term view or sack your IFA BA has a bright future with an excellent product. All the sectors you mention can be easily be outsourced. Aviation can't be outsourced in the same way. Lot's of barriers to entry.
Full marks to BA for turning a profit.
Last edited by Scottie; 19th May 2005 at 13:54.
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Its all very well sticking yer head up yer ar@e and saying you cant see the daylight - its still daytime out there!
Half a billion on its own is meaningless - hence ratio analysis - what does that represent as a proportion of turnover? (Operating ratio) as a proportion in relation to total debt? as a proportion of unit sales?
Dont just shoot me down because you dont like the message - argue back with facts.
I think you'll find that on any of these measures BA has a vast amount to do, and that if we slip back form this level of performance at any stage, we are finished in the long term.
I guarantee that three years from now BA will be a shadow of what it is now - employee levels will be halved, or more, FSS pension will be closed to everyone including existing members, flightcrew pay will be down by a third and work levels will be at legal maxima, CC will have had an extended strike and lost and all old contract crew with pensions will be gone.
I dont like it, but its there staring at us and WW was appointed to do just this.
I kid you not but I am going to retrain as a plumber on my days off - I know there will be no pension worth spit and I intend to have a job to see me throught the early stages of retirement or if, as has just happened to my mate, I lose my medical as a direct consequence of an unsustainable way of rostering work.
Half a billion on its own is meaningless - hence ratio analysis - what does that represent as a proportion of turnover? (Operating ratio) as a proportion in relation to total debt? as a proportion of unit sales?
Dont just shoot me down because you dont like the message - argue back with facts.
I think you'll find that on any of these measures BA has a vast amount to do, and that if we slip back form this level of performance at any stage, we are finished in the long term.
I guarantee that three years from now BA will be a shadow of what it is now - employee levels will be halved, or more, FSS pension will be closed to everyone including existing members, flightcrew pay will be down by a third and work levels will be at legal maxima, CC will have had an extended strike and lost and all old contract crew with pensions will be gone.
I dont like it, but its there staring at us and WW was appointed to do just this.
I kid you not but I am going to retrain as a plumber on my days off - I know there will be no pension worth spit and I intend to have a job to see me throught the early stages of retirement or if, as has just happened to my mate, I lose my medical as a direct consequence of an unsustainable way of rostering work.
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Great that BA made profits, but what about the Pension gap? Perhaps the bonus should have been pumped into the Pension scheme's.
Also HZ123 has rightly highlighted the appalling sickness rates that BA suffers, however, the Cabin Crew know that they can get away with it due to the BASSA big gun's waving the old strike card. I cannot see BA grasping the nettle and hence continue the much needed cost cutting in the CC area.
That said, it's pleasing to see BA back in the black. So, time to change BA's colour scheme again then....
Also HZ123 has rightly highlighted the appalling sickness rates that BA suffers, however, the Cabin Crew know that they can get away with it due to the BASSA big gun's waving the old strike card. I cannot see BA grasping the nettle and hence continue the much needed cost cutting in the CC area.
That said, it's pleasing to see BA back in the black. So, time to change BA's colour scheme again then....
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Many worthy comments and Fred is right as is Darkstar, that unless major cuts are made and customs and practice undergo big changes BA will continue to rollar-coast along. However, there is still a high risk effected by fuel price and potential of world events. As suggested the UK as well as the EU look to be going into recession and that could cause many problems for BA and the low costs groups. The future looks far from stable and there will also be vast issues when BA move to T5 and the many problems that will occur.
