Ryan-Be-Fair.org confirms it!
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smudge74 - you will have a lot more hairy sim. rides to pass if they do take you on.you might not even get past the initial.we may have bad management,but be under no illusion the training is extremely tough and not all get through.getting in is just the start.
a contract co-pilot commented to me recently that the standard of pilot wasn't great in ryanair.well coming from a low time guy with a high time attitude,that was no surprise.we have some of the best smudge,but they suffer on the way up.
a contract co-pilot commented to me recently that the standard of pilot wasn't great in ryanair.well coming from a low time guy with a high time attitude,that was no surprise.we have some of the best smudge,but they suffer on the way up.
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Yeah the sim rides are so tough the training manager failed his twice in a row recently!
http://www.aaiu.ie/aviation/aaiu/rep...g=ENG&loc=1280
At least 10 of these accident reports are down to FR. Heres your evidence.
http://www.aaiu.ie/aviation/aaiu/rep...g=ENG&loc=1280
At least 10 of these accident reports are down to FR. Heres your evidence.
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The Facts
Perhaps I have sat back too long without reply to this topic...
Rest assured to all I am in a position to know what happens within the company, that is all I can safely say under the current circumstances...
and my quarrels are with many different facets of its operations, as they have always been since I started posting on the topics on PPRune...
Grim is right to say that I feel a great deal of loss in where this company could potentially go, it is demotivating and at least worrying...with all the cuts sublimenting a false balance sheet, the day will soon arise where MOL wont be able to find anywhere else he can cut back on...
Obi wan must have worked with the company a long time ago...the average take home pay for an F/O is now below 3ka month, and this with the added expenses others have noted (medical, transport, uniform, loss of license, legal assistance cover, pension scheme (if applicable), accomodation)...NOT TO FORGET the repayment costs for paying for your own type rating...
Exhausted raised the issue of high working hours...this is true...
Without quoting one source too many times, the ryan-be-fair website had posted a finding that the average Ryanair pilot works 40 to 50% more than his easyjet colleagues for the same pay...not to slag off my friends at Ezy, its just for the sake of an example...
Doors to Automatic had raised Safety not being an issue...again, the comment rebuted here about digging heads into the sand is valid...we have less and less experienced crew coming into the company whilst our newer destinations require more and more experience to handle...meanwhile day assignments are becoming considerably long promoting the further issue of fatigue worries...
be under no illusion, in Ryanair, you will easily be away from home for over 12 hours, performing 4 take-offs and landings, five times a week in a row...
Ryanair also likes to twist figures or tell what it considers to be white lies...there are no certainties in the company from which to base your existance, so you can think what you like of that "stable rostering"...it doesnt include having to jump between bases and sort out your own accomodation each time as every person who has gone through line training can relate to...
I don't think anyone will have heard of a company where both pilots and flight crew are known to have to sleep at the airport to accomodate with the "company's needs" (both rostering AND fiscal)...
Ryanair also enjoys to change terms and conditions of any agreement without telling you or even asking you...things as important as pay increases with progression...a topic I heard is becoming a serious worry amongst new first officers...
Why would there be sites like ryan-be-fair.org or repaweb.org if this wasnt a serious issue?
Why would these topics be on PPRune if degredation of conditions didnt in the least worry Ryanair staff?
Lets not forget that an original topic on this website was removed because of complaints by "the plaintiff" (a little something we have to do to secure Danny's hard work on this forum, which is unfair to say the least)
"Go to another airline!"... whoever says this just doesnt know the industry
Job switching as a pilot is difficult, uncertain, and takes a long time... as any pilot knows getting an interview for a job is a big thing and is much more a foot in the door than it would be in other industries...dont forget were worth a lot more in investment costs through retraining and basing than say your regular accountant...
being a pilot is supposed to be a career with one airline...job jumping makes airlines suspicious...
sad part is many are doing just this...speaks for itself in light of this all
Hope this enlightens some of you of my motivations for my posts...
Rest assured to all I am in a position to know what happens within the company, that is all I can safely say under the current circumstances...
and my quarrels are with many different facets of its operations, as they have always been since I started posting on the topics on PPRune...
Grim is right to say that I feel a great deal of loss in where this company could potentially go, it is demotivating and at least worrying...with all the cuts sublimenting a false balance sheet, the day will soon arise where MOL wont be able to find anywhere else he can cut back on...
Obi wan must have worked with the company a long time ago...the average take home pay for an F/O is now below 3ka month, and this with the added expenses others have noted (medical, transport, uniform, loss of license, legal assistance cover, pension scheme (if applicable), accomodation)...NOT TO FORGET the repayment costs for paying for your own type rating...
Exhausted raised the issue of high working hours...this is true...
Without quoting one source too many times, the ryan-be-fair website had posted a finding that the average Ryanair pilot works 40 to 50% more than his easyjet colleagues for the same pay...not to slag off my friends at Ezy, its just for the sake of an example...
Doors to Automatic had raised Safety not being an issue...again, the comment rebuted here about digging heads into the sand is valid...we have less and less experienced crew coming into the company whilst our newer destinations require more and more experience to handle...meanwhile day assignments are becoming considerably long promoting the further issue of fatigue worries...
be under no illusion, in Ryanair, you will easily be away from home for over 12 hours, performing 4 take-offs and landings, five times a week in a row...
Ryanair also likes to twist figures or tell what it considers to be white lies...there are no certainties in the company from which to base your existance, so you can think what you like of that "stable rostering"...it doesnt include having to jump between bases and sort out your own accomodation each time as every person who has gone through line training can relate to...
I don't think anyone will have heard of a company where both pilots and flight crew are known to have to sleep at the airport to accomodate with the "company's needs" (both rostering AND fiscal)...
Ryanair also enjoys to change terms and conditions of any agreement without telling you or even asking you...things as important as pay increases with progression...a topic I heard is becoming a serious worry amongst new first officers...
Why would there be sites like ryan-be-fair.org or repaweb.org if this wasnt a serious issue?
Why would these topics be on PPRune if degredation of conditions didnt in the least worry Ryanair staff?
Lets not forget that an original topic on this website was removed because of complaints by "the plaintiff" (a little something we have to do to secure Danny's hard work on this forum, which is unfair to say the least)
"Go to another airline!"... whoever says this just doesnt know the industry
Job switching as a pilot is difficult, uncertain, and takes a long time... as any pilot knows getting an interview for a job is a big thing and is much more a foot in the door than it would be in other industries...dont forget were worth a lot more in investment costs through retraining and basing than say your regular accountant...
being a pilot is supposed to be a career with one airline...job jumping makes airlines suspicious...
sad part is many are doing just this...speaks for itself in light of this all
Hope this enlightens some of you of my motivations for my posts...
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chickenscanfly
was that my post by any chance ?? I tell you, FR's legal team must sit and monitor Pprune for hours and the slightest hint of trouble, they send in the threats of legal action...
Lets not forget that an original topic on this website was removed because of complaints by "the plaintiff" (a little something we have to do to secure Danny's hard work on this forum, which is unfair to say the least)
To Exhausted
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And so we come to the greatest fear...
What pressman has hit upon is exactly the greatest fear and threat to all of us...
Ryanair has always been revolutionary in how it does business...
now its on the crest of something that is startling to ripple through the industry... Other airlines are looking at MOL and how he is reacting to this...
and without a doubt they will guage how to deal with their pilots accordingly...
its time for us to stop sticking our heads in the sand and finally take a stand...before we all become glorified bus drivers
And viking, it wasnt your post (but that would have been removed as a result)...it was an entire forum topic that spanned 15 pages...
Ryanair has always been revolutionary in how it does business...
now its on the crest of something that is startling to ripple through the industry... Other airlines are looking at MOL and how he is reacting to this...
and without a doubt they will guage how to deal with their pilots accordingly...
its time for us to stop sticking our heads in the sand and finally take a stand...before we all become glorified bus drivers
And viking, it wasnt your post (but that would have been removed as a result)...it was an entire forum topic that spanned 15 pages...
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screw the pooch
ryanair are so far into the cost cutting that they now are asking cabin crew how they can make more money from the punters.the latest target is three pounds and seventy pence per passenger the cabin crew have to screw out of each passenger.there is very little fat left on the calf,but there is a pilots meeting in stn soon,maybe they can screw a little more out of the flight crew suckers.
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On another posting
There is a thread running in Terms and Endearments about Ryanairs lack of conditions. It has been defended mainly by a Mrs(Ozi) Turret who has been making all kinds of wild claims about the COS at Ryanair, mainly about how wonderful it is there and the bags of money everyone is making. 
At the same time, and one of the most appalling comments I have heard on these boards, is comparing pilot unions to terrorists. Go see for yourself. I have asked MT for an apology, but none has been forthcoming to date. ANY company who would align us with terrorists just because we would want decent working conditions and a fair deal has, IMHO, completely gone off the deep end.
I don't work for FR, just so you know, however it can be fixed. If you all stood together and told the management what you wanted and flat out refused to fly until such time as it was delivered, how long do you think the company would hold out? My guess, about as long as it took to type a decent agreement. Lets face it, whats his name is into making money, so if hes not, he will do something. It certainly won't be to shut down or go bankrupt, he'll be left with a mountain of debt to service and months and months of no flying at the earliest while he tried to sucker another group of idiots to work for him. Do yourselves a favour and stick together and stand up to him.
Good luck
Nosey
At the same time, and one of the most appalling comments I have heard on these boards, is comparing pilot unions to terrorists. Go see for yourself. I have asked MT for an apology, but none has been forthcoming to date. ANY company who would align us with terrorists just because we would want decent working conditions and a fair deal has, IMHO, completely gone off the deep end. I don't work for FR, just so you know, however it can be fixed. If you all stood together and told the management what you wanted and flat out refused to fly until such time as it was delivered, how long do you think the company would hold out? My guess, about as long as it took to type a decent agreement. Lets face it, whats his name is into making money, so if hes not, he will do something. It certainly won't be to shut down or go bankrupt, he'll be left with a mountain of debt to service and months and months of no flying at the earliest while he tried to sucker another group of idiots to work for him. Do yourselves a favour and stick together and stand up to him.
Good luck
Nosey
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Non Employed Pilot Interested Person Here - not a fan of MOL but have nothing agaist Ryanair who have never let me down (yet.....) - also not a Wannabee!
Obi Wan Kirk
You said that you averaged 92 hours per month. Is that actually sat in the cockpit time or total duty time including booking on/off? What would the TDT be?
Exhausted
What are the maximum number of flying hours per year and is there a maximum on duty time? If you get paid a years salary but spend a couple of months at home 'resting' does that make a difference? Are there quick rounds where you can go several days with only an eight hour break before starting again or does it balance out? Are Ryanair bad at balancing it out?
Navajo8686
Obi Wan Kirk
You said that you averaged 92 hours per month. Is that actually sat in the cockpit time or total duty time including booking on/off? What would the TDT be?
Exhausted
What are the maximum number of flying hours per year and is there a maximum on duty time? If you get paid a years salary but spend a couple of months at home 'resting' does that make a difference? Are there quick rounds where you can go several days with only an eight hour break before starting again or does it balance out? Are Ryanair bad at balancing it out?
Navajo8686
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Here we go already!
Navajo, open your eyes and your ears. Just the type of sucker I was talking about. Didn't take long did it
Good luck boys, your going to need it with idiots like this cueing up. No wonder its farked
Nosey
Just the type of sucker I was talking about. Didn't take long did it Good luck boys, your going to need it with idiots like this cueing up. No wonder its farked
Nosey
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For lack of sympathy
NG - It might just be an innocent question
Navajo - Understandably, the pages of posts are quick a mountain to drudge through, but have a look again and youll grasp what level of importance Ryanair places upon employee relations
92 hours is sitting in cockpit time executing the flight... its literally off blocks till on blocks (parking brake released till parking brake set (guys, dont narrow this definition down please, its close enough like this))
Total time allowed per year is 900 block hours (again, block off till block on), and thats an Irish limitation. Ryanair has been pushing to extend this to 1,000 or more, but that would mean murder.
It fluctuates whether FR pilots fly lots of long days with minimum rest inbetween each day (basically speaking, minimum rest must equate to the block hours flown before hand, down to a minimum level of 8 hours (i think it was)), or whether someone gets rostered a very easy week...there is no balancing done here, simply luck of the draw
FR Pilots are also paid in basic pay and sector pay. The more sectors one flies, the more the sector pay is. Currently sector pay equates to around 2 times as much as what the basic pay is on a good month
but, ofcourse, if youre out of hours or you have a slow month, you can find yourself with 1/3 the 'normal' salary for that month.
Navajo - Understandably, the pages of posts are quick a mountain to drudge through, but have a look again and youll grasp what level of importance Ryanair places upon employee relations
92 hours is sitting in cockpit time executing the flight... its literally off blocks till on blocks (parking brake released till parking brake set (guys, dont narrow this definition down please, its close enough like this))
Total time allowed per year is 900 block hours (again, block off till block on), and thats an Irish limitation. Ryanair has been pushing to extend this to 1,000 or more, but that would mean murder.
It fluctuates whether FR pilots fly lots of long days with minimum rest inbetween each day (basically speaking, minimum rest must equate to the block hours flown before hand, down to a minimum level of 8 hours (i think it was)), or whether someone gets rostered a very easy week...there is no balancing done here, simply luck of the draw
FR Pilots are also paid in basic pay and sector pay. The more sectors one flies, the more the sector pay is. Currently sector pay equates to around 2 times as much as what the basic pay is on a good month
but, ofcourse, if youre out of hours or you have a slow month, you can find yourself with 1/3 the 'normal' salary for that month.
Paxing All Over The World
I can't believe that someone who has apparently as much business acumen as MOL can be so stubborn - christ it's not even over money , yet it is probably costing him hundreds of thousands extra in fuel etc and goodwill among the pilots - full power all the way lads , let's run the APU for another few mins , oh no missed the slot , ah sure it's only fuel , I am sure that the pilots there are making him pay in there own way - if he can be given a way out that makes him look credible I am sure he would take it - his pride has got in the way in the past as well.
Wait for the day when FR carry more pax than BA and the phrase 'world's favourite airline' will be redeployed. It would be fascinating to know who-did-what to MoL many years ago for him to be so driven. A man I hope never to meet in person and whose airline I have used once only and no intention of using again. I Also encourage others not to use him. If MoL were able to read this (rather than just his legal staff) then he would laugh at what I have just written. He does care but not about the same things as his staff.
Having worked in commerce and local govertment and finance (and more) for 27 years, I have no doubt that MoL is being made to pay by his staff.
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"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
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Small correction there,
the minimum rest is as long as the preceeding flight duty period (which is from 45mins before STD untill 30mins after On Blocks) and the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM is never less then 10 hours (not 8).
Ziggy
the minimum rest is as long as the preceeding flight duty period (which is from 45mins before STD untill 30mins after On Blocks) and the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM is never less then 10 hours (not 8).
Ziggy
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7 1/2 hrs. is the absolute minimum. Anything less is considered to be "ground time".
You're probably getting your "CAO" (T&C's for you anglo-saxons) confused with the legal minima... Back to the drawing board I guess ;-)
You're probably getting your "CAO" (T&C's for you anglo-saxons) confused with the legal minima... Back to the drawing board I guess ;-)
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Chickenscanfly
Thank you for your reply - I now understand far better.
Whilst there are pages and pages of threads about Ryanair I wanted to make sure that I understood the current rules (which may or may not have changed over time) so that I could make an informed opinion.
As a consequence of your lucid and helpful reply I do now understand in far greater detail what the problem is.
Nosegears' reply did not help at all - it's difficult to be either understanding or sympathetic when you get berated for asking a civil question!
From my point of view I have never been mistreated by Ryanair as a passenger - however I must admit that I am not happy when employers treat staff like dirt (whether it be an airline or a burger bar) and try to avoid said employers (unless there is no other choice than Hobson's Choice!)
Regards and thank you
Navajo8686
Thank you for your reply - I now understand far better.
Whilst there are pages and pages of threads about Ryanair I wanted to make sure that I understood the current rules (which may or may not have changed over time) so that I could make an informed opinion.
As a consequence of your lucid and helpful reply I do now understand in far greater detail what the problem is.
Nosegears' reply did not help at all - it's difficult to be either understanding or sympathetic when you get berated for asking a civil question!
From my point of view I have never been mistreated by Ryanair as a passenger - however I must admit that I am not happy when employers treat staff like dirt (whether it be an airline or a burger bar) and try to avoid said employers (unless there is no other choice than Hobson's Choice!)
Regards and thank you
Navajo8686
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Youre welcome navajo...
And I hope Im not railroading Nosegear with this by saying that his reaction is one we all feel at first towards such questions as your initial one...
its a constant frusteration which is taking a much greater hold on the industry as a whole...this apparent disregard to the time, effort, and financial sacrifice made by pilots to do their job...
sure we love doing it, but we also pay a price to do it, which makes the whole issue all the more complicated
Ziggy, thanks for the correction
And I hope Im not railroading Nosegear with this by saying that his reaction is one we all feel at first towards such questions as your initial one...
its a constant frusteration which is taking a much greater hold on the industry as a whole...this apparent disregard to the time, effort, and financial sacrifice made by pilots to do their job...
sure we love doing it, but we also pay a price to do it, which makes the whole issue all the more complicated
Ziggy, thanks for the correction
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My God fellas! Remember the bottom line is what your prepared to accept. How anyone can imagine less than £40K per year for jockying a 737 about the sky is good pay, utterly astounds me. Professional aviation is a hard task master. It impinges on your 'lifestyle' more intrusively than most other jobs of an equivalent pay bracket.
It always amazes me that flight crew are prepared to sell their talents so bloody cheaply. In any other walk of life with the same levels of intelligence and committment to the job you'd be away flying (forgive the pun) to the stars. In aviation your constantly at the mercy of the instant impact of changes in global ecomomy, there is no cushioning in aviation. You are suject to the whimful direction of, at best, cavalier management and just when it seems that you might get through to pensionable age, the company stalls, the pension scheme stalls and your back where you started, just another qualified 'jock' with little else to sell to a future employer.
Get off your bums and like Oliver Twist ask for more!!
It always amazes me that flight crew are prepared to sell their talents so bloody cheaply. In any other walk of life with the same levels of intelligence and committment to the job you'd be away flying (forgive the pun) to the stars. In aviation your constantly at the mercy of the instant impact of changes in global ecomomy, there is no cushioning in aviation. You are suject to the whimful direction of, at best, cavalier management and just when it seems that you might get through to pensionable age, the company stalls, the pension scheme stalls and your back where you started, just another qualified 'jock' with little else to sell to a future employer.
Get off your bums and like Oliver Twist ask for more!!
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Well said Teapea Friends of mine with equivalent qualifications are creaming the money in. Even the CC serving tea and coffee pull in more dosh than our average airbus jockey. Who's fault is that? Certainly not the management whose job it is to minimise costs. Interesting that they'll fork out 40K for someone to serve tea and coffee, and yet begrudge 30K for a copilot. Unfortunately, apathy rules in aviation. Pilots are just relieved to have a job in order to get a return on their investment/training. Other people in the airline would just walk if their T & C's weren't up to scratch.
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Ryanair,fact or fiction
Can anyone please confirm the exact pay scales for Ryanair?
Flying a lot of hours per month and not being treated well is fine , but there must be some sort of compensation for the level of treatment.
I am already flying B737 in the low cost sector and am considering a change, with a view to getting a base that I want,i am sure that I am in the same boat as a lot of people.
Thank God the industry has swung again, with the shoe firmly on our feet.
We must ask for more money.The companies often ask us to tighten our belts.Flight crew are only accounting for 6% of the total cost of any given low cost sector .With fuel topping the bill at 39%.Non pilots who work in the airlines , please remember this , especially accountants.
Flying a lot of hours per month and not being treated well is fine , but there must be some sort of compensation for the level of treatment.
I am already flying B737 in the low cost sector and am considering a change, with a view to getting a base that I want,i am sure that I am in the same boat as a lot of people.
Thank God the industry has swung again, with the shoe firmly on our feet.
We must ask for more money.The companies often ask us to tighten our belts.Flight crew are only accounting for 6% of the total cost of any given low cost sector .With fuel topping the bill at 39%.Non pilots who work in the airlines , please remember this , especially accountants.
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RYR Payscales
As is for a starting F/O, ryanair eventually pays in sector pay and basic pay
sector pay equates to aroud 2/3 of the total salary, basic covers the last 1/3
sector pay is related to the number of scheduled block hours you are rostered to fly, and can either be paid by the hour exactly, or you may fall into an older sector pay table scheme (3 to 5 hours so much, 5 to 7 hours so much, etc)
basic pay remains the same each month
if you do not fly for an entire month (eg: out of hours), you get no sector pay. if you report sick for a day, sector pay is also not paid out
F/Os begin on around a basic salary of GBP 1,000 a month in a UK base.
sector pay on a good month reachs about 1,800 a month. a bad or slow month will get you 1,200
however, an F/O entering training will not be paid anything during the type rating course nor the wait until the start of line training (which is always an undefined period, and in some cases takes 4 months)
once training begins, no salary is yet paid until the safety pilot is released from the flight deck (20 sectors). Then only half sector pay is paid only.
Once line training is completed, basic pay is finally awarded but not backdated. You still remain on half sector pay.
Not until you receive a permanent contract and base do you receive full sector pay. This, however, can take anywhere up to 6 months after the end of line training.
theres a good calculation about all this in the forum topic "Terms of Endearment"
sector pay equates to aroud 2/3 of the total salary, basic covers the last 1/3
sector pay is related to the number of scheduled block hours you are rostered to fly, and can either be paid by the hour exactly, or you may fall into an older sector pay table scheme (3 to 5 hours so much, 5 to 7 hours so much, etc)
basic pay remains the same each month
if you do not fly for an entire month (eg: out of hours), you get no sector pay. if you report sick for a day, sector pay is also not paid out
F/Os begin on around a basic salary of GBP 1,000 a month in a UK base.
sector pay on a good month reachs about 1,800 a month. a bad or slow month will get you 1,200
however, an F/O entering training will not be paid anything during the type rating course nor the wait until the start of line training (which is always an undefined period, and in some cases takes 4 months)
once training begins, no salary is yet paid until the safety pilot is released from the flight deck (20 sectors). Then only half sector pay is paid only.
Once line training is completed, basic pay is finally awarded but not backdated. You still remain on half sector pay.
Not until you receive a permanent contract and base do you receive full sector pay. This, however, can take anywhere up to 6 months after the end of line training.
theres a good calculation about all this in the forum topic "Terms of Endearment"