Standby AFTER a duty.
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Woolley,
Despite my alleged poor education I can speak with some authority regarding the rosters referred to in this thread.
Sometimes they operate, let's say, 4 sector duties, other times they operate 2 sectors with a short SBY before of after, continuous would be inapt, regularly would be appropriate.
You state this to be 'poor planning'! If it were planned that they would be called out off that SBY then why the ****would they be planned on SBY in the first place, why not roster them for the supposed planned flight?
They operate a fleet of geriatric turbo-props, lack of spares, crap weather etc. etc. etc. and as they say '**** Happens' or to novices 'Welcome to Aviation'.
The fact they might not be available for the next day's duty is the operator's problem, not the pilot's, something borne into consideration in advance.
You indicated that you consider you annual workload to be 900 block hours, what about the 1900 duty hours or would working a normal life bring on your ill health again?
I guess EZY don't roster SBY's!
Despite my alleged poor education I can speak with some authority regarding the rosters referred to in this thread.
Sometimes they operate, let's say, 4 sector duties, other times they operate 2 sectors with a short SBY before of after, continuous would be inapt, regularly would be appropriate.
You state this to be 'poor planning'! If it were planned that they would be called out off that SBY then why the ****would they be planned on SBY in the first place, why not roster them for the supposed planned flight?
They operate a fleet of geriatric turbo-props, lack of spares, crap weather etc. etc. etc. and as they say '**** Happens' or to novices 'Welcome to Aviation'.
The fact they might not be available for the next day's duty is the operator's problem, not the pilot's, something borne into consideration in advance.
You indicated that you consider you annual workload to be 900 block hours, what about the 1900 duty hours or would working a normal life bring on your ill health again?
I guess EZY don't roster SBY's!
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Dear Phileas
On the contrary, Easy were masters of this nonsense, that's why I and large numbers of my colleagues no longer work there.
Just tell me, how many hours do you have working to poor rosters? If it's a few thousand or so I accept that you do indeed speak with 'some authority' on the subject. If on the other hand you've been the one dishing out this garbage then I'm afraid you haven't the slightest idea !
A standby before a flight too eh? Another old Easy trick-and you really can't see how that is disruptive rostering? Well more than enough said really.
Ignorant :- Lacking knowledge. (Oxford English)
On the contrary, Easy were masters of this nonsense, that's why I and large numbers of my colleagues no longer work there.
Just tell me, how many hours do you have working to poor rosters? If it's a few thousand or so I accept that you do indeed speak with 'some authority' on the subject. If on the other hand you've been the one dishing out this garbage then I'm afraid you haven't the slightest idea !
A standby before a flight too eh? Another old Easy trick-and you really can't see how that is disruptive rostering? Well more than enough said really.
Ignorant :- Lacking knowledge. (Oxford English)
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Stan,
What a complete load of ****e you speak. I presume you are someone who wants to report at the time it says on your roster and be home 30 minutes after your off duty time on the roster......ever thought about a career change...??
you work for a company, a business, and they are simply covering their backsides by rostering you SBY's before/after filghts in order to cover on-the-day disruption.
Say you are based in LGW, and you have an afternoon JER, whats that; a total of 1hr30m flight time? Please tell me whats wrong with you covering say an early morning PMI of afternoon ALC; god formbid this interfere's with your drinking time??
****e happens mate, planes go tech etc and someone has to be there to pick up the pieces...why not you?
What a complete load of ****e you speak. I presume you are someone who wants to report at the time it says on your roster and be home 30 minutes after your off duty time on the roster......ever thought about a career change...??
you work for a company, a business, and they are simply covering their backsides by rostering you SBY's before/after filghts in order to cover on-the-day disruption.
Say you are based in LGW, and you have an afternoon JER, whats that; a total of 1hr30m flight time? Please tell me whats wrong with you covering say an early morning PMI of afternoon ALC; god formbid this interfere's with your drinking time??
****e happens mate, planes go tech etc and someone has to be there to pick up the pieces...why not you?
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Woolley,
You seem to have taken it upon yourself that you are the world's leading authority on rostering and should anyone dare to disagree with you opinion, well we've seen your reaction.
I have more years experience of crewing than I care to imagine, in every company one gets feedback that a proportion of pilots approve of their work patterns, some are pilots that never want to leave home, some are pilots that never want to see home and then there's always one or two that are never happy regardless of what. One soon learns, that one will never make all of the people happy and all of the time.
For 5 years, I set up and managed my own crewing dept. and it was the sort of company whereas my office door was always open for flight crew to come and talk with me. We are all employed to achieve the same end result and quite often pilots would discuss if there was an alternative way of planning something. We would discuss it, sometimes over a beer, and they would normally agree with me or indeed disagree but without being able to offer their own alternative suggestion(s).
You've made it perfectly clear that you have a hatred of crewing personnel, they obviously don't know as much as you and you're never going to listen to reason. I've always tried to have an amicable and mutal respect relationbship with the crews.
Now bearing in mind that you know everything and I'm just plain ignorant then you'll know the precise circumstances at Mobster's operator. Please enlighten us, with all factors taken into consideration, how you would build some SBY coverage into the rostering without a risk of disrupting rosters.
I hasten to add, that at that particular operator, many of the pilots live in excess of 1 hour away from base thus if they were rostered for pure SBY's then they may find themselves overnighting in a motorways services just to ensure they are within one hour should the phone ring.
Of course, we could do away with SBY's altogether, let's mess around the customers that pay all of our wages, lose them to another operator whilst putting ourselves on the dole queue in the process. I guess that would be better for your health, certainly not for mine.
You seem to have taken it upon yourself that you are the world's leading authority on rostering and should anyone dare to disagree with you opinion, well we've seen your reaction.
I have more years experience of crewing than I care to imagine, in every company one gets feedback that a proportion of pilots approve of their work patterns, some are pilots that never want to leave home, some are pilots that never want to see home and then there's always one or two that are never happy regardless of what. One soon learns, that one will never make all of the people happy and all of the time.
For 5 years, I set up and managed my own crewing dept. and it was the sort of company whereas my office door was always open for flight crew to come and talk with me. We are all employed to achieve the same end result and quite often pilots would discuss if there was an alternative way of planning something. We would discuss it, sometimes over a beer, and they would normally agree with me or indeed disagree but without being able to offer their own alternative suggestion(s).
You've made it perfectly clear that you have a hatred of crewing personnel, they obviously don't know as much as you and you're never going to listen to reason. I've always tried to have an amicable and mutal respect relationbship with the crews.
Now bearing in mind that you know everything and I'm just plain ignorant then you'll know the precise circumstances at Mobster's operator. Please enlighten us, with all factors taken into consideration, how you would build some SBY coverage into the rostering without a risk of disrupting rosters.
I hasten to add, that at that particular operator, many of the pilots live in excess of 1 hour away from base thus if they were rostered for pure SBY's then they may find themselves overnighting in a motorways services just to ensure they are within one hour should the phone ring.
Of course, we could do away with SBY's altogether, let's mess around the customers that pay all of our wages, lose them to another operator whilst putting ourselves on the dole queue in the process. I guess that would be better for your health, certainly not for mine.
Last edited by Phileas Fogg; 16th Dec 2004 at 07:05.
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A few weeks ago I raised this point, standby before or after a flight duty, with the CAA flight ops inspector for my company, (which i suspect is the same one as yours) while being ramp checked as i had heard some colleagues say that it was illegal.
The CAA chap said it seemed pointless to put you on standby before an FDP as it needlessly wasted duty hours, but that it was not illegal if the company wished to do so.
In my experience, one is very rarely called in from standby before or after an FDP. I believe the practice of putting you standby after an FDP has come about after some crews declined an extra sector when asked, so now they can force you to.
Also, one cannot be seen to have too much time off as this upsets the boss, even when there is no chance of a flight.
The CAA chap said it seemed pointless to put you on standby before an FDP as it needlessly wasted duty hours, but that it was not illegal if the company wished to do so.
In my experience, one is very rarely called in from standby before or after an FDP. I believe the practice of putting you standby after an FDP has come about after some crews declined an extra sector when asked, so now they can force you to.
Also, one cannot be seen to have too much time off as this upsets the boss, even when there is no chance of a flight.
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Morning Phileas
Please indicate where I did that? In fact I get on very well with crewing - it's just you I hate. 
Can you tell me how many UK airlines have any kind of proper bidline system, as you've said different people want different things?
SPFlyer
Thanks for that.
What's wrong with it is that if you do the PMI you can't do your rostered Jersey flight, so someone else has to cover it and someone else has to cover them etc,etc .
If someone was rostered to be on Stby only then no-one else gets messed about.
You've made it perfectly clear that you have a hatred of crewing personnel
Can you tell me how many UK airlines have any kind of proper bidline system, as you've said different people want different things?
SPFlyer
What a complete load of ****e you speak
whats wrong with you covering say an early morning PMI of afternoon ALC
If someone was rostered to be on Stby only then no-one else gets messed about.
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11:45 min possible duty time for 4 sectors...more than enough time!!!
Obviously if people are on SBY duty only then that would be better, but i thought the whole point of your initial post was SBY BEFORE duty?
The key to crewing is to produce as few roster changes as possible, but if the SBY's arent there what do you suggest? Sometimes a bit of imagination is called for, and that means disruption for you and your crew.
If the operation went to plan all the time wouldnt it be boring....
Obviously if people are on SBY duty only then that would be better, but i thought the whole point of your initial post was SBY BEFORE duty?
The key to crewing is to produce as few roster changes as possible, but if the SBY's arent there what do you suggest? Sometimes a bit of imagination is called for, and that means disruption for you and your crew.
If the operation went to plan all the time wouldnt it be boring....
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Woolley,
As one has come to expect, you've answered a question(s) with a question(s), not an answer(s). Clearly, you are one of these people that shouts 'problem, problem, problem' rather than 'solution, solution, solution'. I'm the latter of these I hasten to add.
I don't object to being hated by you, you're obviously a hot-head who shouts rather than talks, I have no idea how many UK airlines have bidding systems, I haven't done UK airlines for a number of years, been doing JAA airlines more recently.
I find that spreading one's wings broadens one's experience, thanks for explaining what 'ignorance' means, it was a word I had forgotten, it's obviously still fresh in your mind though.
As one has come to expect, you've answered a question(s) with a question(s), not an answer(s). Clearly, you are one of these people that shouts 'problem, problem, problem' rather than 'solution, solution, solution'. I'm the latter of these I hasten to add.
I don't object to being hated by you, you're obviously a hot-head who shouts rather than talks, I have no idea how many UK airlines have bidding systems, I haven't done UK airlines for a number of years, been doing JAA airlines more recently.
I find that spreading one's wings broadens one's experience, thanks for explaining what 'ignorance' means, it was a word I had forgotten, it's obviously still fresh in your mind though.
Avoid imitations
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This argument seems a little strange to me - surely a pilot must expect to be available for his full duty period if required, whether on standby or not? The duty period should be part of an individual's contract, signed at the point of the first employment. Anything else should be open to negotiation.
14 hour days, up to 12 sectors per day plus captain's discretion are not uncommon in some parts of the aviation industry.
Some pilots are also required to carry out the daily check on the aircraft when away from base, sometimes AT base too, due to non-availability of qualified engineering staff.. but that's another story...
14 hour days, up to 12 sectors per day plus captain's discretion are not uncommon in some parts of the aviation industry.
Some pilots are also required to carry out the daily check on the aircraft when away from base, sometimes AT base too, due to non-availability of qualified engineering staff.. but that's another story...
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Phileas
Didn't you see the smiley? I don't hate anyone, I just strongly object to some companies solving their problems at the expense of their employees wellbeing.
Over time I saw it happen to large numbers of people at Easyjet which is why I know that it's a problem that really exists even if you can't or won't acknowledge it.
Shy Torque
Stop it you're making Phileas salivate!!
In fact it was the view of both my boss and more importantly the company lawyer at Easyjet that this was not the case. That's why we have rosters.
Didn't you see the smiley? I don't hate anyone, I just strongly object to some companies solving their problems at the expense of their employees wellbeing.
Over time I saw it happen to large numbers of people at Easyjet which is why I know that it's a problem that really exists even if you can't or won't acknowledge it.
Shy Torque
14 hour days, up to 12 sectors per day plus captain's discretion are not uncommon in some parts of the aviation industry.
surely a pilot must expect to be available for his full duty period if required, whether on standby or not?
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ST,
It's a little strange to me also if that's any consolation. There is a thead in another forum regarding a suggestion, regarding the AF Concorde, that lawyers butt out of aviation but now it seems they're being invited into the sphere of rosters.
All of this is totally inappropriate for the original post in this thread, there would be no point in pilots bidding because whatever they bid for it is the 'same old sh..', night freight whether to take it to Coventry or Belfast, who cares!
It's a little strange to me also if that's any consolation. There is a thead in another forum regarding a suggestion, regarding the AF Concorde, that lawyers butt out of aviation but now it seems they're being invited into the sphere of rosters.
All of this is totally inappropriate for the original post in this thread, there would be no point in pilots bidding because whatever they bid for it is the 'same old sh..', night freight whether to take it to Coventry or Belfast, who cares!
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Stan
CAA view is that you should come to work expecting a full FDP + possible use of discretion.
I therefore cannot accept the Flight Safety issue you mention.
The problem as Fog states is that Pilot and standbys dont mix.
The only Pilots who like doing standbys are those that live locally and they treat them like a day off. In general Pilots dont earn allowances on standby so god forbid they have to use their salary to pay for accommodation etc
CAA view is that you should come to work expecting a full FDP + possible use of discretion.
I therefore cannot accept the Flight Safety issue you mention.
The problem as Fog states is that Pilot and standbys dont mix.
The only Pilots who like doing standbys are those that live locally and they treat them like a day off. In general Pilots dont earn allowances on standby so god forbid they have to use their salary to pay for accommodation etc
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Have been following this thread with interest for a while. I am currently a military transport captain who is looking to cross into the civillian world in the near future.
It seems to me the main thrust of this argument is that it is anti-social and unsettling to have sby as part of your duty day. If your rules are as I believe, then surely you can only work an overall maximum, whether all rostered duty, or sby.
What is so wrong with having the last few hours of your duty as sby now and again, rather than working your full duty period. Surely this effectively gives you a bit of time do do a bit of admin on the ground.
I agree that if this were to happen every time, it would be too much.
Sorry if some of my terminology/knowledge of your rules is not up to scratch.
It seems to me the main thrust of this argument is that it is anti-social and unsettling to have sby as part of your duty day. If your rules are as I believe, then surely you can only work an overall maximum, whether all rostered duty, or sby.
What is so wrong with having the last few hours of your duty as sby now and again, rather than working your full duty period. Surely this effectively gives you a bit of time do do a bit of admin on the ground.
I agree that if this were to happen every time, it would be too much.
Sorry if some of my terminology/knowledge of your rules is not up to scratch.
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Gamekeeper,
And if you live locally you can actually go home to do your SBY, go to bed or take the other pilot with you to watch a video with a cup of tea! The only real restrictions are that you'll need your black pyjamas close to hand and you can't drink alcohol. Seems to me, not a bad way of earning a living!
And if you live locally you can actually go home to do your SBY, go to bed or take the other pilot with you to watch a video with a cup of tea! The only real restrictions are that you'll need your black pyjamas close to hand and you can't drink alcohol. Seems to me, not a bad way of earning a living!
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Fogg,
Working 9-5,
every weekend off,
public holidays off,
able to make plans,
not fatigued,
eat quality food whenever
and able to walk away from a problem when it get too hard.
Not a bad way to earn a living.
Working 9-5,
every weekend off,
public holidays off,
able to make plans,
not fatigued,
eat quality food whenever
and able to walk away from a problem when it get too hard.
Not a bad way to earn a living.
Thread Starter
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Blimey, what alot of vitriol about a (fairly) simple question!
Since the answer seems to be YES it is legal, I will leave it at that. I don't like being on SBY after a duty, but them's the breaks, as long as it is 'legal' then I have no problem with that.
To answer another point, "is it to cover for roster instability?" Oh yes indeed, the usual story of not enough crew or a/c to cover the roster properly. In that vein, what is a standby crew? ours are always flying!!
Actually, Stan hit the nail on the head with his first post........
Since the answer seems to be YES it is legal, I will leave it at that. I don't like being on SBY after a duty, but them's the breaks, as long as it is 'legal' then I have no problem with that.
To answer another point, "is it to cover for roster instability?" Oh yes indeed, the usual story of not enough crew or a/c to cover the roster properly. In that vein, what is a standby crew? ours are always flying!!
Actually, Stan hit the nail on the head with his first post........
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Mobster, I think you, me, 74F and Phileas all work for the same happy family.
I know exactly what you mean, as we are regularly rostered standby duties before and after flights. This was brought formally to the CAA's attention and also to BALPA.
As usual, utter lack of interest from the CAA. BALPA's point of view was that it is perfectly legal, although poor practice. Considering who we work for, a fair enough answer I think.
As for Phileas's rather smug comment of - you can go home and have a nice cup of tea - well, you might if you happen to live 5 minutes away from Mersey Base. However, more than half the aircrew operate out of other bases and traditionally (and occaisonally due to the company) live much further away, making it very impractical to go home for this 3-4 hour standby.
It's not very pleasant spending 3-4 hours in our Midlands facility offices, especially as the CAA have said it is not fit to be used for split duties.
As the folks at BALPA told us, legal but not particularly ethical.
Oh, and as I think Phileas is management, I'd let this subject drop quietly!
I know exactly what you mean, as we are regularly rostered standby duties before and after flights. This was brought formally to the CAA's attention and also to BALPA.
As usual, utter lack of interest from the CAA. BALPA's point of view was that it is perfectly legal, although poor practice. Considering who we work for, a fair enough answer I think.
As for Phileas's rather smug comment of - you can go home and have a nice cup of tea - well, you might if you happen to live 5 minutes away from Mersey Base. However, more than half the aircrew operate out of other bases and traditionally (and occaisonally due to the company) live much further away, making it very impractical to go home for this 3-4 hour standby.
It's not very pleasant spending 3-4 hours in our Midlands facility offices, especially as the CAA have said it is not fit to be used for split duties.
As the folks at BALPA told us, legal but not particularly ethical.
Oh, and as I think Phileas is management, I'd let this subject drop quietly!
It's not just an adventure....
it's just a job!
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Mobster
Does your previous duty day include flight time? If so then the answer is a flat NO. It is not legal. If, however you did not fly, then it is a grey area dependant on your air law.
This is an issue I have always disputed. See my thread on Africa, titled Air Law Lawyers.
Cheers,
OffshoreIgor
Does your previous duty day include flight time? If so then the answer is a flat NO. It is not legal. If, however you did not fly, then it is a grey area dependant on your air law.
This is an issue I have always disputed. See my thread on Africa, titled Air Law Lawyers.
Cheers,
OffshoreIgor
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No offence taken but no, I do not work for Emerald nor am I Emerald management.
I have been around though, worked for a significant number of airlines, including Emerald (a number of years back), and have seen this number of different working practices.
Every airline has it's good and bad sides and whilst Emerald might squeeze more, than most, blood out of that same stone, the practice of SBY's before or after an FDP is not unique to Emerald.
How they go about it, man management and all that, well that's a different kettle of fish.
PF
I have been around though, worked for a significant number of airlines, including Emerald (a number of years back), and have seen this number of different working practices.
Every airline has it's good and bad sides and whilst Emerald might squeeze more, than most, blood out of that same stone, the practice of SBY's before or after an FDP is not unique to Emerald.
How they go about it, man management and all that, well that's a different kettle of fish.
PF