Life in BA as a new, low-houred FO.
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eyesinthesky,
Thank you for adding a healthy dose of reality to this thread! I generally try not to get involved in such posts, as I too get tired of listening to the same people's eternal gripes about their company's and job's. It's refreshing to hear your comments and I’m sure that most flightdeck within BA, as with most companies, share your general ethos.
I have no doubt that there are problems within BA, and I also have no doubt that people are leaving, but if they are doing so in search of pastures greener within the industry, I would have to question how in touch with the industry they really are. At the end of the day, the general T&C's within BA are about as good as it gets. No if’s, no but’s. Period.
And to answer a previous question, Ms GE is a cadet, is not involved with the 777, and the fact that she might finally leave BA concerns me as there is always the very slightest possibility that she might end up in my company
Anyway, rant over.
Regards,
Cuban_8
Thank you for adding a healthy dose of reality to this thread! I generally try not to get involved in such posts, as I too get tired of listening to the same people's eternal gripes about their company's and job's. It's refreshing to hear your comments and I’m sure that most flightdeck within BA, as with most companies, share your general ethos.
I have no doubt that there are problems within BA, and I also have no doubt that people are leaving, but if they are doing so in search of pastures greener within the industry, I would have to question how in touch with the industry they really are. At the end of the day, the general T&C's within BA are about as good as it gets. No if’s, no but’s. Period.
And to answer a previous question, Ms GE is a cadet, is not involved with the 777, and the fact that she might finally leave BA concerns me as there is always the very slightest possibility that she might end up in my company
Anyway, rant over.
Regards,
Cuban_8
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eyesinthesky
Very good post. From my point of view I knew cadets and self sponsored pilots who went straight to jets and many are now slightly disappointed that it was not all they expected. The one good thing about getting there slowly is that I still have so much to look forward to. I still remember the satisfaction of each step such as first instructing, first IR instructing on twins, first work on turboprops. I must admit I am jealous of the money.
Very good post. From my point of view I knew cadets and self sponsored pilots who went straight to jets and many are now slightly disappointed that it was not all they expected. The one good thing about getting there slowly is that I still have so much to look forward to. I still remember the satisfaction of each step such as first instructing, first IR instructing on twins, first work on turboprops. I must admit I am jealous of the money.
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No need, the moderator already has. I am sorry I missed that while asterisking the original post, or it would have been edited out.
Eyesinthesky, a very eloquent first post only marred by some of the thinly disguised language and the use of real names. As a new poster you might be forgiven these breaches of the forum rules, however I suspect you are already well versed with them !
Eyesinthesky, a very eloquent first post only marred by some of the thinly disguised language and the use of real names. As a new poster you might be forgiven these breaches of the forum rules, however I suspect you are already well versed with them !
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If it is possible to generalize in BA, I would say that life is pretty dire for a low houred shorthaul FO in BA. (And in Ryanair, EasyJet, etc, no doubt) However, to most pilots, there is life at the end of the tunnel in the form of the 744 (to those that wish to go ULH).
The old days of a cushy 737, airbus, or 757/767 command have gone tho'. Those pilots work hard and earn their salaries. Probably very similar to the guys in the lo-co's or BY. Maybe life is better in BA than outside. All I can say is broaden your horizons and look elsewhere if you are looking for a well paid professional career that pays a professional salary and perks. Forget having any input to how the company is run, or trying to make a difference. It makes absolutely no difference if you have the Chief Pilot (sorry General Manager FC) operating the flight or a monkey. It all happens regardless. BA is a great place for the less capable operator, as you can sit and just take the money, regardless. However, BA try and recruit capable people who do want to make a difference. What happens is FC get very frustrated at the incompetence and mess unfolding around them, but are specifically not given the tools or authority to change anything.
I would suggest a cushy number working for another FTSE100 company would gain you more respect, money and a better home life. If you have a burning passion to fly, then find somewhere else.
The old days of a cushy 737, airbus, or 757/767 command have gone tho'. Those pilots work hard and earn their salaries. Probably very similar to the guys in the lo-co's or BY. Maybe life is better in BA than outside. All I can say is broaden your horizons and look elsewhere if you are looking for a well paid professional career that pays a professional salary and perks. Forget having any input to how the company is run, or trying to make a difference. It makes absolutely no difference if you have the Chief Pilot (sorry General Manager FC) operating the flight or a monkey. It all happens regardless. BA is a great place for the less capable operator, as you can sit and just take the money, regardless. However, BA try and recruit capable people who do want to make a difference. What happens is FC get very frustrated at the incompetence and mess unfolding around them, but are specifically not given the tools or authority to change anything.
I would suggest a cushy number working for another FTSE100 company would gain you more respect, money and a better home life. If you have a burning passion to fly, then find somewhere else.
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I think a bit of perspective is needed here. There have been a lot of negative comments about BA - mostly I suspecy from people who have not worked for another airline.
What are the good bits - big airline with unparallelled opportunities (within the UK at least) to fly longhaul/shorthaul, Boeing/Airbus and if it is to your liking, management. Bidline at LHR once you move up the seniority list is great giving you some degree of control over your lifestyle. Being junior with Bidline is not quite so good as you tend to end up with blindlines (having your roster built from the leftover trips that nobody else wants). Carmen (a preferencing system) at Gatwick I would suggest is better for junior people as you get at least some of what you want. Roster stability is a huge plus - what is published on your roster is what you fly - unlike my previous company where what was published you could almost guarantee you would not fly. Pay, I guess is similar or slightly better than other UK airlines. Very easy to be a grey man/woman - turn up, fly the aeroplane, go home and never see management if you choose not to pay them a visit. Flying more hours than when I joined but still not working as hard as I used to in my previous existence. BA generally have an excellent reputation for a no blame safety culture. If you screw up BA are not interested in apportioning blame - they want to find out why and prevent it happening again. If you are prepared to take on the learning points that is generally the end of the matter - again unlike my previos employer where it seemed to be a case of sack the bloke and we'll investigate it afterwards.
Bad bits - big company where (at LHR anyway) it is hard to get to know people as the chances are you wont see them for a few years. Much better at LGW where the atmosphere is much more like other UK operators. Hopeless management structure where the faults of the company are easy to identify but no one can put right. Lots of militant unions. Working harder than we used to, but who isn't these days.
I love working for BA and if you want to fly out of the UK with one of the larger operators, I would wholeheartedly recommend it.
What are the good bits - big airline with unparallelled opportunities (within the UK at least) to fly longhaul/shorthaul, Boeing/Airbus and if it is to your liking, management. Bidline at LHR once you move up the seniority list is great giving you some degree of control over your lifestyle. Being junior with Bidline is not quite so good as you tend to end up with blindlines (having your roster built from the leftover trips that nobody else wants). Carmen (a preferencing system) at Gatwick I would suggest is better for junior people as you get at least some of what you want. Roster stability is a huge plus - what is published on your roster is what you fly - unlike my previous company where what was published you could almost guarantee you would not fly. Pay, I guess is similar or slightly better than other UK airlines. Very easy to be a grey man/woman - turn up, fly the aeroplane, go home and never see management if you choose not to pay them a visit. Flying more hours than when I joined but still not working as hard as I used to in my previous existence. BA generally have an excellent reputation for a no blame safety culture. If you screw up BA are not interested in apportioning blame - they want to find out why and prevent it happening again. If you are prepared to take on the learning points that is generally the end of the matter - again unlike my previos employer where it seemed to be a case of sack the bloke and we'll investigate it afterwards.
Bad bits - big company where (at LHR anyway) it is hard to get to know people as the chances are you wont see them for a few years. Much better at LGW where the atmosphere is much more like other UK operators. Hopeless management structure where the faults of the company are easy to identify but no one can put right. Lots of militant unions. Working harder than we used to, but who isn't these days.
I love working for BA and if you want to fly out of the UK with one of the larger operators, I would wholeheartedly recommend it.
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The 747-400 March stage 2 bid pack shows six new joiners on the fleet. They each have 12 sims, does that mean they have a type rating?
I think most people assumed the less popular 777 would be the only LH fleet for new joiners, there seemed to be plenty of interest from internal bidders for the -400. However, it would seem the -400 is an option as well. A good result for those who get it.
I think most people assumed the less popular 777 would be the only LH fleet for new joiners, there seemed to be plenty of interest from internal bidders for the -400. However, it would seem the -400 is an option as well. A good result for those who get it.
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Lucky them, I think a lot of FO's already in BA might be slightly aggrieved that their -400 bid now looks less likely! BA using the 5 year freeze to save money on courses, we know the rules and so do they!!
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Zero Flight Time
To qualify for a Zero Flight Time type rating, you need 1000 hours jet airline time. (Not sure if there's a minimum MTOW for those hours)
Once you finish in the sim, BA can send you straight to a passenger carrying aircraft for your first 'real' landing. Basically it saves the company from laying on a base training trip where you would normally have to complete 6 landings.
So ex-BMI guys with a 320 rating will save BA money compared to say an ex-RAF fast jet guy.
Once you finish in the sim, BA can send you straight to a passenger carrying aircraft for your first 'real' landing. Basically it saves the company from laying on a base training trip where you would normally have to complete 6 landings.
So ex-BMI guys with a 320 rating will save BA money compared to say an ex-RAF fast jet guy.
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eyeinthesky
Very good post with much to learn by all, but you have made the same wrong assumption as reheat and studi.
I am not jealous of cadets never have been or ever will be. In fact if you read one of my post somewhile back i said that i have an admiration for them for getting through the system.
What hacked me off was "some" who appeared to not realise what a unique opportunity they had been given and yes GE GIVEN and do nothing but moan without wanting to give up the "cushy" job (please note that cushy meant in comparison to other less secure and renumerated jobs).
I am not trying to say that just because i have spent a small fortune or that i started on TP that i have the moral high ground as you quite rightly pointed out we all went through the same exams blood sweat and tears. But GE et al cant quite seem to understand that some paid more than others.
You passed a selection course turned up on a monday and started flying then "eventually" got a job as you put it flying a 50t jet. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that as it gave many people who were not as financially lucky as me a chance to kiss the sky four times a day.
As you said you were lucky and from your post i truly believe that you know it and appreciate what you have achieved.
But your comment about arrogance is a touch un called for. I never at any point in my posts intimated that because i fly a TP that i am somehow better even though im glad i started on one because it has given me a different insight to the business and that will prove useful when i move onto your 50t jets.
BTW i was either too old too young or already on a course when BA were recruiting cadets so yes i would have done it that way and save myself a heap of cash and yes i would have jumped at it.
GE
You still have yet to say anything in terms of what you like about the job. All you have brought to this thread is problems and no solutions.
If you really are that unhappy and from your own posting a target of, as eyeinthesky puts it "some bad chi" move on or is BA really not that bad in comparison to other airlines.
I like you have much to complain about the daily crap that my company puts us through which detracts from the beauty of flying but i keep it to myself and remember that the glass is always half full and about to be filled up so my cup runneth over.
Wobbler
An even better post and im glad that you are and i hope to soon.
Good luck one and all
Very good post with much to learn by all, but you have made the same wrong assumption as reheat and studi.
I am not jealous of cadets never have been or ever will be. In fact if you read one of my post somewhile back i said that i have an admiration for them for getting through the system.
What hacked me off was "some" who appeared to not realise what a unique opportunity they had been given and yes GE GIVEN and do nothing but moan without wanting to give up the "cushy" job (please note that cushy meant in comparison to other less secure and renumerated jobs).
I am not trying to say that just because i have spent a small fortune or that i started on TP that i have the moral high ground as you quite rightly pointed out we all went through the same exams blood sweat and tears. But GE et al cant quite seem to understand that some paid more than others.
You passed a selection course turned up on a monday and started flying then "eventually" got a job as you put it flying a 50t jet. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that as it gave many people who were not as financially lucky as me a chance to kiss the sky four times a day.
As you said you were lucky and from your post i truly believe that you know it and appreciate what you have achieved.
But your comment about arrogance is a touch un called for. I never at any point in my posts intimated that because i fly a TP that i am somehow better even though im glad i started on one because it has given me a different insight to the business and that will prove useful when i move onto your 50t jets.
BTW i was either too old too young or already on a course when BA were recruiting cadets so yes i would have done it that way and save myself a heap of cash and yes i would have jumped at it.
GE
You still have yet to say anything in terms of what you like about the job. All you have brought to this thread is problems and no solutions.
If you really are that unhappy and from your own posting a target of, as eyeinthesky puts it "some bad chi" move on or is BA really not that bad in comparison to other airlines.
I like you have much to complain about the daily crap that my company puts us through which detracts from the beauty of flying but i keep it to myself and remember that the glass is always half full and about to be filled up so my cup runneth over.
Wobbler
I love working for BA
Good luck one and all
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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I can't speak for anyone else here but I would have bitten the bullet and got into huge debt to go and fly Turboprops if that had been my only way in - see, some of us are keen! 
Edited to say:
If I was looking to move to a big airline now and wanted Longhaul, I would have to think very carefully before I joined BA shorthaul.
Edited to say:
If I was looking to move to a big airline now and wanted Longhaul, I would have to think very carefully before I joined BA shorthaul.
Last edited by Human Factor; 8th Feb 2005 at 13:25.
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Only read page 1 then moved straight onto page 8 so may have missed quite a few worthwhile comments.
Attitude people, that's all it needs. Do it because you want to and then enjoy doing it. Sometimes they job IS a pain and sometimes the boss IS pain and when that happens just remember you are where you are because you want to be there. When you have to put in your 8 hours you might as well enjoy it.
That's the way I look at my job - works for me.
Heat.
Attitude people, that's all it needs. Do it because you want to and then enjoy doing it. Sometimes they job IS a pain and sometimes the boss IS pain and when that happens just remember you are where you are because you want to be there. When you have to put in your 8 hours you might as well enjoy it.
That's the way I look at my job - works for me.
Heat.
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I too am up for DEP selection soon from a 737 loco. Is it true that if you join BA as a DEP on a type you are already rated on that you are not subjected to the 5 year freeze?
If true, how long would it likely take to get LH?
Also, what is the feasability of living somwhere like New York or Dubai and commuting to work for LH? Can you use staff travel for that or would you have to pay for flights? Can you get your salary paid gross of tax if you live abroad?
Thanks
If true, how long would it likely take to get LH?
Also, what is the feasability of living somwhere like New York or Dubai and commuting to work for LH? Can you use staff travel for that or would you have to pay for flights? Can you get your salary paid gross of tax if you live abroad?
Thanks
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buttline,
In answer to your question, every pilot joining BA is subject to a 5 year engagement freeze, regardless of type/previous type. There are many many ex-cadets coming up to the end of their freeze this year who will testify this (yours truly included!). Therefore, unless you are lucky (or unlucky?!) enough to be posted directly onto 777, you will have to wait 5 years + for long haul like the rest of us in the queue.
Once you get long haul, commuting is no problem. I have many friends who commute short haul, where there are more issues, but long haul you will be fine.
For what its worth, life in BA is not all doom and gloom as I sometimes feel when I visit this site. There are hundreds of us BA pilots who go to work every day, do a job we enjoy, and just get on with it. It seems to me the most frequent BA postees on this site are the people who are not happy or have a grudge to bear. That is in no way disrespectful - they have their own opinions and are free to post them on here. However, I fly with many relatively happy and content skippers who have never even heard of Pprune (or even t'internet in some cases!), therefore the views you get can be slightly imbalanced. All I would say is remember the silent majority!
Good luck with the selection, and hope to see you at the big BA flying club soon!
Mary
In answer to your question, every pilot joining BA is subject to a 5 year engagement freeze, regardless of type/previous type. There are many many ex-cadets coming up to the end of their freeze this year who will testify this (yours truly included!). Therefore, unless you are lucky (or unlucky?!) enough to be posted directly onto 777, you will have to wait 5 years + for long haul like the rest of us in the queue.
Once you get long haul, commuting is no problem. I have many friends who commute short haul, where there are more issues, but long haul you will be fine.
For what its worth, life in BA is not all doom and gloom as I sometimes feel when I visit this site. There are hundreds of us BA pilots who go to work every day, do a job we enjoy, and just get on with it. It seems to me the most frequent BA postees on this site are the people who are not happy or have a grudge to bear. That is in no way disrespectful - they have their own opinions and are free to post them on here. However, I fly with many relatively happy and content skippers who have never even heard of Pprune (or even t'internet in some cases!), therefore the views you get can be slightly imbalanced. All I would say is remember the silent majority!
Good luck with the selection, and hope to see you at the big BA flying club soon!
Mary