Jet2/Channel Express

[Scottie]

Whilst I agree that people instructing or on turboprops have a difficult time at the moment TRSS is still taking the profession to new depths. Where will it end? Already I know TRSS pilots at Astreus are having to pay for line training at £100 per hour.

So not only are they paying for their own rating they're not getting a salary whilst flying paying punters around! I wish I was management as one could make a fortune out of pilots!

How long before other airlines copy Astreus?

I can see the original TRSS applicants idea. Do your time at crap airline and move on, problem is they're all doing it now!

What makes you think pilot bodies had the chance to stop TRSS? Why weren't all student pilots BALPA members? It's free after all

As for the assertion that all existing pilots take the view that "I'm all right jack so b*gger everyone else" well get real. Turn it around and look at the TRSS applicant who has just eroded T&C for those following them and those in the industry. I'm sure all existing jet pilots would be more than happy to have new pilots on the proper salary scale.

It will all go full circle though when pilots are once again in demand....then the TRSS will disappear

[Man Flex 32.5]

TRSS is not a new thing just a different phrase, cast your memories back to early 90's when the market was quite depressed and no employer would look at you unless you had modern flight guidance or jet time.
I bought myself a 757 rating in 94 trying to escape turbo-props costing £10,500 out of my net salary but i had a jet job offer within 6 weeks of completion. The difference now is that with certain operators, you sign for a loan, the company pay you back monthly for the rating from gross salary but at gordon browns expense, i.e. upto 40% tax break.
I am not saying that i agree with the system but thats the way the market is and i dont blame the guys for signing up.
If you were faced with flying a turbo prop for £16 K (apparently Air South West) a year or TRSS fly a jet and get circa £30 K what would you choose?

MF

[The Puzzler]

Puzzle me this....

Thank goodness you jumped in Scottie, I couldnt believe what I was reading!! What are these people thinking!! In real terms our T & C's are going backwards, not just in the EU but around the world. As a professional group we must stand united. And please no more of the 'you're alright jack, I'm a wannabee' rubbish. We were all wannabees once. Roll on the golden years.

[bigbusdriver06]

Puzzler,

Stand united, yes - but how? We cannot stand united against the marketplace as a whole and this is what is getting us.

Elsewhere in Pprune (Scandalous Pay) there is reference to Czech pilots who would be delighted with these pay and conditions. The Czech Republic is a JAA state, so as soon as the EC labour laws change their pilots can come and work here.

I welcome them as fellow European pilots, but to us in UK it is the equivalent of Dyson moving its vacuum cleaner production abroad. Effectively, jobs for UK pilots will simply disappear........

...........unless we adapt, and that means accepting the sort of deal that Jet2 is offering. Like it or not, it may be the only way that UK shorthaul airlines can survive.

MyTravel is already planning another airline downsize for 2007, allowing more outsourcing - guess where will the capacity will come from? Somewhere cheaper than UK.

Scottie, yes I know that eventually wealth will flow eastwards but it will all take time and aviation is so portable that mid-European aircraft and crews will make it to UK faster!

[Lucky Strike]

I don't agree with paying for training either, but for reasons stated elsewhere on this thread perhaps it is inevitable.

Instead of arguing amongst ourselves, we ought be applying pressure on the Government to have the cost of training properly tax deductible. Jet2’s way training repayment is tax efficient to a point as I understand it, since the training is repaid from gross salary and not net. However, if the cost of the repaying the training is for example £6700 per annum for three years then this should be added to our personal tax code for the period of the loan. If my tax code were say £8000 pa, I am allowed to earn £8000 per annum before I start paying tax. If the cost of training were added on to this, my personal allowance would go up to £14,700 and I would be allowed to earn this amount before paying tax. If the loan for the training were then deducted from salary, the biggest disadvantage would be to the Inland Revenue.

It’s true the Revenue and the Government are hardly likely to agree to this. But if the long term result of doing nothing to address the cost advantages of East European operators is that every aircraft over the UK is flown by non UK residents whilst UK pilots are either working overseas and paying the Revenue nothing, or UK pilots are on income support dependant on the Government, perhaps the Government should be made to listen.

It should be BALPA, the IPA and high profile representatives of UK airline management, Branson would be perfect, that lobbies UK Government for a change to tax rules of this nature or any other law change that would give our industry a chance of competing with the lower overhead East European operators.

[The Puzzler]

How do we stand united

Puzzle me this....

BBD06 there is no clear cut answer but for what its worth heres how I see it. The likes of BALPA and the IPA cannot be under emphasised in presenting a united front, although they seem to lack proper representation and a firm resolve. But the real answer lies with us. As we climb the ladder in our careers we will certainly become more influential with some of us even becoming management But with this influence comes the responsibility and opportunity to make a difference. We must ensure our employers understand that a happy workforce is a stable workforce, a stable workforce is loyal and productive workforce. How many of us have said that it would only take 'this or that' and this job would be superb. It doesnt take alot, nor does it have to cost the earth - Southwest is an example of this at its best. People (the staff) are recognized as the reason the airline is successful and rewarded, and treated, accordingly.

Regarding the whole issue of training and the associated costs there are 2 points here. The cost to the company and the value of that investment to them. Airlines need to be realistic about how much initial and recurrent training is going to cost them and factor this in to their finances. To put their running costs on to their staff as a way of making a financial saving is certainly not going to instill loyalty However it is fair that an employer expects to get something for their investment and to this end bonding on a pro rata basis to cover the costs incurred is the fairest way to achieve this. Of course the question is, is it really necessary? Not if the airline has become an employer of choice! Is it reasonable to put pilots on reduced pay during line training or, like easyJet, for the first 6 months after check to line? Absolutely not! They are being as productive as anyone else, it is this kind of attitude that undermines the whole employer/employee relationship. I am still at a loss as to how BALPA allowed this to happen.

Bat.man, I fully concur with your argument for tax breaks, both to employers and employees. This is an area for the unions, although against this chancellor I wish them luck!

So guys and gals, make your feelings known, but dont just complain, offer solutions. Most employers are wiley enough to understand my basic economic principals and want nothing more than a stable workforce. Recruiting costs money - its a vicious circle, lets break it

[flystudent]

Nice post Puzzler.

Hello guys, Having read this thread from start to (current) finish it really is very informative. Regarding the questions of tax breaks I ask this question as a wannabe that has just finished ATPL training. Could an airline that decides to take on a student who has finished their training in effect take on their debt too ? feel free to shoot through my logic here...

My thinking here is

1. Airline takes students debt
2. Airline now has a £40-60K cost they can offset profits against.
3. Airline deduct loan repayments from students salary pretax.

outcome being student is repaying loan before tax instead of after (as per the Jet2 type rating) and the employer gets a nice cost to offset the profits on the books reducing corp tax ?

or have I missed something ?

FS

[Smokie]

During the late Eighties, early Nineties, Airlines used take on Pilots and pay off their previous bonds.
Channex was one such company, among a fair few others.

[Scottie]

BigBusDriver06. Your whole theory is based on the fact that cheaper wages in the east will mean lower salaries for us.

For the last 40 years airlines in the enclosed market of the UK airlines have been offering different levels of pay. So why have these airlines with low salaries not had the ability to knock out the airlines with high salaries???

Bottom line is that the differences between salaries in the East and salaries in the West do not make a great difference to the bottom line. Otherwise over the last 40 odd years we'd already be working for peanuts here in the UK.

Encouraging other pilots to sell themselves short because of your flawed theory makes me want to

[Quod Boy]

What a bunch of cheapskates.

Outfits like Jet2,and others who,make you pay for a rating are preying on the keen,invariably first timers,low houred and often poor.eager pilots.Rich daddys have ruined it,but honourable outfits,still do not make their pilots pay.

A bond is fair.the number of pilots who leave their employer,is directionally proportional to this fact.Leeds is a great spot,but on 20K,pa??

Good luck B757

QB

[witchdoctor]

Those who are putting forward the view that some of the big charter boys (Britannia, Monarch etc) don't ask wannabees for a payment for type rating are not entirely correct. They only take low hours non-rated guys through the CTC scheme (unless you are the lucky 6 or so who get sponsored in full), which requires not only an up front payment (£6K or so), but if you are successfully plucked from the holding pool, then 6 months wage free flying with no guarantee of a permanent place.

You may not need to to dip your hand in your pocket for £20K, but the final cost to you in terms of payments to CTC and wage free living for 6 months isn't far from it.

[joe]

Witchdoctor. Not exactly correct.

CTC ATP scheme costs about £6500

If successful after stage 4 (36 hours in a 737-700) into hold pool.

On completion of TR receive £2000 back.

6 Months line training etc during which you are paid approx £1000 a month.

To me getting a grand a month and getting a TR and experience with a guarentee of employment (granted may not be with the initial airline) as long as you do not mess up sounds good to me.

It appears to be one of the only reputable ways into the RHS of a jet for low houred guys and girls.

Rgds Joe

[Meeb]

Spineless morons...

It appears to be one of the only reputable ways into the RHS of a jet for low houred guys and girls.

I hope thats said tongue in cheek...

CTC are the reason this industry is ****** up, they started the 'pay for type rating' nonsense (ok bmi started it, but at least they are an employer), only rich kids could go down the CTC Slave programe... and they continue I guess to attract that type of well heeled individual. I have known 1 chap who went on the CTC thing... son of a rich airfield owner for ****** sake...

Sorry about not being my usual reserved self... its just that this industry which I once loved... is being screwed over by management... aided by rich wannabes with not one moral fibre in their spineless bodies...

[joe]

Meeb. You sound like a right little *****.

I am not a) spineless or b) rich.

I am though someone who after a lot of bloody hard work has a shot at getting into a RHS, not necessarily via CTC.

How many wannabe’s will ever get that opportunity? NOT many.

I am not in a position as of yet to stand up for company or industries T&C’s (as I am not employed) but I presume you are.

So Meeb
Why have you sat back all this time watching the erosion of T&C’s?
Why haven’t you done anything about it?
Why are you blaming a low houred un-employed wannabe for the industries and your faults?

We can either, deal with the very hard task of getting a job in the current climate or all roll over and wait for the T&C’s of yester-year to reappear. Not likely. Why should I make an individual stand when you haven’t?

Also do you really think it is fair to generalise CTC on rumours and on a single case of a “son of a rich airfield owner for ****** sake”. I for one would only make an opinion on something which I had all the facts for and experience of. Not hearsay.

You obviously think differently.

[Smokie]

CTC are milking it end of story.
East versus West salaries well, CTC are the thin end of the wedge.

At the end of the day it's cheap labour. Long gone are the days of xxxx hours turbo prop, etc, as a pre requisite for Jet training.

So much for the Flight safety angle. Just waiting for a Major then the insurance companies will have to raise the bar.

Now, if you are prepared to prostitute your self, you will get that RHS job and don't forget you will reap what you sow.
Don't come complaining about T&C's 3 years or so down the line that F/O XYZ is on a better ( allegedly) deal than you are. its your bed mate, lie in it!

But never mind hey, as daddy invaribly has deep pockets.
Normally the ones that take about 6 attempts to get through the academics and techs. Then after bumbling through the Sim, still can't put the aircraft down on 3000 meters or more, which is worrying when you consider our aircraft is designed for short field Op's. Had four or five in the not too distant past who took nearly a whole season to put it down in the touch down zone!

They were actually nice guys and girls, its not their fault they have only done 30 hrs in a seneca, it's the Bean counters and the "system's" fault for going down this road to maddness in the first place!

I really do dispair some times.

[Lucky Strike]

Apologies in advance Meeb and others.

What used to happen was that a minor, third or second rate, jet operator would employ a turbo-prop experienced pilot and the operator would pay for the type training. The type training was one thing, the pilot had to be taught how to become an airline pilot too and this was done during type training, during line training and over the course of years with recurrent base checks. Sometimes the pilot would stay long enough to benefit from this training and would to get promoted to LHS, more often the pilot would take the benefit of this training to a better carrier, nowadays Virgin or Emirates come to mind. During the course of the pilots apprenticeship at his first jet operator he would be flying with Captains of generally not less than about 5000 hours and several years in the industry. The pilot had the benefit of years of collective experience and training from trainers that had thousands of hours and years of experience in difficult to operate jet aircraft, the B707 and Pprune’s 411A come to mind for those regular Ppruners.

In recent years, experienced turbo-prop pilots have gone to jet operators just the same, but instead of having the benefit of a couple of years flying some old TP that is a pig to fly, SD360 or F27 for example, manually flying (no AP), battling through the weather full of parcels in the middle of the night to some gale lashed regional airport with a captain who is 64, spent 40 years in BEA or similar and can’t see the instruments from more than 18 inches away; it’s more likely that today’s TP pilot spent two years watching the AP fly a modern turbo prop from one ILS to another. When he gets to his first jet airline, and by jet I mean an aircraft of over 50,000KG made by Airbus, Boeing, Lockheed or McDonnell-Douglas, he will be trained in the minimum of time by a third party training organisation by an instructor who has never flown the type in question. He will be line trained by someone with 200 hours on type to an SOP that varies monthly, is not allways written anywhere and differs according to the trainer. When he is on line, he will fly with captain’s with 3000 hours total and his recurrent OPC’s will be in a third party SIM that breaks down too often to do the LOFT exercise. His trainer will be on his first jet type too.

Or the jet employer can send his new pilots to CTC where they will be trained, coached and bullied if necessary into not only passing the type training, but learning to fly and learning to be an airline pilot at the same time. The instructor is likely to have spent years at BA flying several jet types and is still able to see the instruments from the back of the SIM, which rarely breaks down. If the pilot passes all this, it’s a bigger training risk because there is more to learn in a shorter period of time than in years previously, he will certainly pass his companies line training to a standard that is likely to equal or even exceed existing line standard.

The fact is airlines don’t have the training infrastructure of yesteryear and even if they did, the experience levels available to them to conduct the training have fallen. Why not get the candidate to carry his own financial risk and pay for the training at CTC? He will get the best training available outside first rate jet operators and if he’s no good he’ll get sent home.

My advice would be, borrow the money and get on with it; for sure the training will stand the individual in good stead for the rest of his/her career and since he’ll ‘own’ his rating and go elsewhere when the opportunity arises. In the post MYT times that are to come, quality training might mean the difference between working or not.

It’s true that T & C’s are being eroded, but compared to what? My friend the A330 captain paid for his own type rating 14 years ago to get his first jet job, waited 7 years for command and his first LHS salary was less than £50,000. I have a feeling that the benchmark in our industry may be about to change, again.

[bigbusdriver06]

Good post, bat.man!

You concluded:
"I have a feeling that the benchmark in our industry may be about to change, again."

Too right - why do so many good capable intelligent pilots have a blind spot about this?

[Sick]

all very interesting batman, but all that doesn't alter the fact that if rich kids weren't buying their way to the front of the queue, then subscibing airlines would have to pay for the training at their own expense - all CTC does is shift the financial burden of training to the individual - nothing else!

[bigbusdriver06]

Where are all these "rich kids"?

Yes, okay, I'm sure that quite a few get some modest assistance but my experience of first-job pilots is that they've had to crawl over broken glass to get there.

And having done it, they get a good kicking by some of their "seniors" on this thread, for sticking at it and borrowing even MORE money to progress their careers.

They have to take it as it is, not try and change the world so that they can get a free type rating.

[fimbles]

bat.man

I can appreciate the comments you make and the description of the good ole days of the airline industry and its training and career structure have some merit. What i cannot agree with is your championing of CTC training and then the rubbishing of todays training departments as some sort of justification. CTC does a good job at what it does, and provides opportunities to those who can meet its requirements but there are plenty of airlines whose training departments are full of very experienced training Captains with thousands of hours on many types and whose set up is far more professional and geared to the real world of line flying than CTC.
If you want to give CTC a pat on the back feel free and if you want to knock a particular airline's training dept ( if you have good cause and hard facts) knock yourself out, but don't tar us all with the same brush.

rgds