Is Ryanair worth it?
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Be careful
Dani, Dani, Dani .... be careful .... read the contributions on the various Ryanair threads. If you pay for anything up front, the chances of the contract you expect appearing is close to zero. You never see the real contract until they have you in their grip and you have debts.
In any case, enforcing a Ryanair contract is not easy. Think about all the people who, for example, lost around £1,000 per month because an arbitrary change to pensions was made without negotiation. What the contract said was irrelevant. What Ryanair did was very relevant.
In any case, enforcing a Ryanair contract is not easy. Think about all the people who, for example, lost around £1,000 per month because an arbitrary change to pensions was made without negotiation. What the contract said was irrelevant. What Ryanair did was very relevant.
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GGV, that may be true and I do not have enough insight information about Ryanair to talk as an expert on this thread. But I was under the impression that if you are a contract pilot you do not get the contract from Ryan Air but from the contracter, e.g. Brookfield. I would not have any pension, my only salary would be the pay by the hour. Do you have reasons to believe that they could change this rate on the run? Brookfields contract goes for 5 years.
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Dani, I understand what you are saying about the contract. I will need to check again, which might take a few days. But I can tell you that I have spoken to a contract co-pilot within the last three months who passed the command assessment but found that all aspects of his contract - days off, pay, base, etc. were to be changed when he was offered his command. (I will make no more comment on this as I do not want to all this individual to be identified).
All the evidence suggests that if you do not have a clear contract - or written agreement - IN ADVANCE that things will change afterwards. If you get yourself into debt to pay for the rating, it is a certainty that they will then feel you are trapped and will change your expected employment terms. Whether they do this through the agency or directly will not matter if they believe you have no choice but to accept!
On the other hand, I think it has been agreed elsewhere that the most reliable contracts at the moment are for those pilots coming through agencies. I am really saying that you need to be very careful as the usual rules of behaviour certainly cannot be assumed to apply in FR.
All the evidence suggests that if you do not have a clear contract - or written agreement - IN ADVANCE that things will change afterwards. If you get yourself into debt to pay for the rating, it is a certainty that they will then feel you are trapped and will change your expected employment terms. Whether they do this through the agency or directly will not matter if they believe you have no choice but to accept!
On the other hand, I think it has been agreed elsewhere that the most reliable contracts at the moment are for those pilots coming through agencies. I am really saying that you need to be very careful as the usual rules of behaviour certainly cannot be assumed to apply in FR.
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Someone I know very well has been "taken over" by Ryanair and is about to have this company close under him after 25 or so years with the previous company - Now it's the well-reported £50 on-line etc to apply for a non-permanent (maybe) probationary job anywhere in Europe (possibly) and bonded to the training for an aircraft he already has on his licence.
This guy used to be the happiest, most positive, cheerful pilot I have ever met - and now, after nearly 2 years in the Ryanair empire he is utterly and totally disillusioned, not to say depressed - and would give up flying tomorrow.
To have changed this guy from what he was to what he is now takes an exceptionally special breed of management. I would suggest a really long think about it before joining him in misery.
This guy used to be the happiest, most positive, cheerful pilot I have ever met - and now, after nearly 2 years in the Ryanair empire he is utterly and totally disillusioned, not to say depressed - and would give up flying tomorrow.
To have changed this guy from what he was to what he is now takes an exceptionally special breed of management. I would suggest a really long think about it before joining him in misery.
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As a previous post mentioned, I too have seen a whole bunch of professional, highly motivated individuals reduced to virtually nothing over the term they have been shrouded by this Irish low cost airline.
One chap, with over 18000hrs on his ticket is close to quitting the industry early. Retirement looms in about 4 years but the treatment he has received while under the threats of this Irish loco has demolished his self asteem, confidence and ability to focus on the future on occassions. Rest assured, he's a safe operator but this is an example of the effects of the way he gets treated.
Questions :-
Why do managers at this loco find it necessary to shout abuse at their employees, down the phone and to their faces, when they don't get the answer they are looking for?
Why are cabin crew frightened to head from the Buzz operation back to the mainline side ?
Why have the Buzz staff not been told what is happening to their fleet (and jobs) at the end of October? What happened to the 3 months notice period that pilots are entitled to receive?
Answer :-
Irish loco power struggle + mind games = destroyed staff
I feel very sorry for anyone who continues to work for them. Escape while your sanity is intact.
One chap, with over 18000hrs on his ticket is close to quitting the industry early. Retirement looms in about 4 years but the treatment he has received while under the threats of this Irish loco has demolished his self asteem, confidence and ability to focus on the future on occassions. Rest assured, he's a safe operator but this is an example of the effects of the way he gets treated.
Questions :-
Why do managers at this loco find it necessary to shout abuse at their employees, down the phone and to their faces, when they don't get the answer they are looking for?
Why are cabin crew frightened to head from the Buzz operation back to the mainline side ?
Why have the Buzz staff not been told what is happening to their fleet (and jobs) at the end of October? What happened to the 3 months notice period that pilots are entitled to receive?
Answer :-
Irish loco power struggle + mind games = destroyed staff
I feel very sorry for anyone who continues to work for them. Escape while your sanity is intact.
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1) Is there a Ryanair pilot/ Brookfield out there who could post something positive about working for Ryanair and would say to another pilot yes, go ahead work here but... ?
I realize it is bad at Stanstead but what about Girona ? Is it as bad at the Ryanair outstations ?
In my limited experience when a Captain does his job there is no reason he has to put up with abuse ( now that there are other jobs out there ). Speaking in general terms and from experience.
If it as bad as people say then perhaps the CAA and IAA are not doing their jobs ?
Havent we sown our own seeds by paying for type ratings ? I have suffered by declining to pay for one in the past but it was a question of pride for me.
Does paying for type ratings come down to ones personal pride and economic circumstances ?
If we agree to do something we should not complain about it after. The time to say no is right there,at that moment ? If you have a domineering Captain you have the responsibility to your passengers to say " No " If you think he is doing something unsafe and it has not been briefed.
Could someone please explain the labour laws in England/ Ireland ?
Smart business people do not want the liability of firing people without just cause.
Let“s face it there are other dictatorial types in this industry and the only way to deal with them is with brass balls, be real men stick together and perhaps lager.
Do you know what I mean by brass balls ?
But I do not know the full story because I do not work there ....
The problem is we fly for free we only get paid for the paperwork.
I realize it is bad at Stanstead but what about Girona ? Is it as bad at the Ryanair outstations ?
In my limited experience when a Captain does his job there is no reason he has to put up with abuse ( now that there are other jobs out there ). Speaking in general terms and from experience.
If it as bad as people say then perhaps the CAA and IAA are not doing their jobs ?
Havent we sown our own seeds by paying for type ratings ? I have suffered by declining to pay for one in the past but it was a question of pride for me.
Does paying for type ratings come down to ones personal pride and economic circumstances ?
If we agree to do something we should not complain about it after. The time to say no is right there,at that moment ? If you have a domineering Captain you have the responsibility to your passengers to say " No " If you think he is doing something unsafe and it has not been briefed.
Could someone please explain the labour laws in England/ Ireland ?
Smart business people do not want the liability of firing people without just cause.
Let“s face it there are other dictatorial types in this industry and the only way to deal with them is with brass balls, be real men stick together and perhaps lager.
Do you know what I mean by brass balls ?
But I do not know the full story because I do not work there ....
The problem is we fly for free we only get paid for the paperwork.
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Go for it if you have money enough
Mach trim,
you may have to start with a contract with no assigned base. This is a flexible situation as you will be rostered (and told that it is legal) to work out of different airports with positioning being accounted for or considered as rest time.
As soon as you start an enquiry about a fixed base you will face the music. It will not be the base you dreamed of and you will be forced to accept a serious drop in your monthly gratifications (about 15%) as well as increase in the scheduled days as you will have to provide unpaid standby at the base of their choice.
Abuse is a standard situation you will have to face however your performance is....
The CAA has no right to review or investigate internal issues...it is an Irish Airline...
The often named person sitting in STN and holding the strings has mentioned more than once that a contract pilot does not need to be sacked....he/she will simply not be rostered anymore.
Since the introduction of the self-sponsored route into a contract with any of the agencies acting for RyanAir for several pilots the aforementioned procedure became fact.
you may have to start with a contract with no assigned base. This is a flexible situation as you will be rostered (and told that it is legal) to work out of different airports with positioning being accounted for or considered as rest time.
As soon as you start an enquiry about a fixed base you will face the music. It will not be the base you dreamed of and you will be forced to accept a serious drop in your monthly gratifications (about 15%) as well as increase in the scheduled days as you will have to provide unpaid standby at the base of their choice.
Abuse is a standard situation you will have to face however your performance is....
The CAA has no right to review or investigate internal issues...it is an Irish Airline...
The often named person sitting in STN and holding the strings has mentioned more than once that a contract pilot does not need to be sacked....he/she will simply not be rostered anymore.
Since the introduction of the self-sponsored route into a contract with any of the agencies acting for RyanAir for several pilots the aforementioned procedure became fact.
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I actually asked the IALPA Ryanair Rep about the IAA and CAA. He told me that they only work via the IAA and while reports get to IALPA very few pilots are willing to allow their name to be used in making a complaint/report. Without names, details, etc. the IAA will accept a complaint from IALPA, but will not act upon it! IALPA says that the IAA will pursue any report that comes their way provided that there is supporting information. He said that this is an advance from the IAA not being willing to talk to IALPA about Ryanair. Hmmmm..
Mach trim, you ask about the bases. They vary. Old hands will just point out that if they are happy this just means that it is only a matter of time before trouble arrives. All the evidence supports such pessimism. You seem to feel that captains don't have to put up with abuse. But that is no different to co-pilots really, is it not? Nobody has to.... but why join an airline just to make a stand on principle and lose your job?
The issue of type ratings is not really one of principle, it is just a fact that there will always be somebody out there willing to pay. Which is why they do it, will continue to do it, and why it will shortly become the norm in the aviation business. It will not take too long to know if I am right about this - less that 3-5 years is my forecast for new F/Os.
Mach trim, you ask about the bases. They vary. Old hands will just point out that if they are happy this just means that it is only a matter of time before trouble arrives. All the evidence supports such pessimism. You seem to feel that captains don't have to put up with abuse. But that is no different to co-pilots really, is it not? Nobody has to.... but why join an airline just to make a stand on principle and lose your job?
The issue of type ratings is not really one of principle, it is just a fact that there will always be somebody out there willing to pay. Which is why they do it, will continue to do it, and why it will shortly become the norm in the aviation business. It will not take too long to know if I am right about this - less that 3-5 years is my forecast for new F/Os.
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Ryanair is NOT worth it.
I would characterise the pilot jobs at Ryanair, as the BETA version of a pilots job. It looks like a job, but it is not.
Let me explain...
It all comes down to:
1. Is it a job?
2. or is it not a job, e.g. a hobby, lifestyle, etc.?
What is a job... A job is generally characterised to be a stable condition where you use your prof. skills to earn an income. Allowing you to save for a pension and time for your private life. You are a member of a team, and you are respected as such - both as a person, and as an employee. You are ofcourse employed via a direct hire contract, showing your employers interest in you.
A position offered via an agency (because Ryanair won't touch you) with low wages (when you correct for tax, selffunded typeratings, selfsponsored nightstops and transportation, uniforms etc.) and a generally poor lifestyle - which is killing your private life as well as your prof. life - is not a job, but a hobby, lifestyle - or.... it's what you need to do, to get the hours to be able to qualify for a real job.
Consider it as such. Do the math, find out if you need and can afford to be employed by Ryanair, financially and personally. If the answer is yes, then sign one of their s-h-i-t-t-y contracts.
I would characterise the pilot jobs at Ryanair, as the BETA version of a pilots job. It looks like a job, but it is not.
Let me explain...
It all comes down to:
1. Is it a job?
2. or is it not a job, e.g. a hobby, lifestyle, etc.?
What is a job... A job is generally characterised to be a stable condition where you use your prof. skills to earn an income. Allowing you to save for a pension and time for your private life. You are a member of a team, and you are respected as such - both as a person, and as an employee. You are ofcourse employed via a direct hire contract, showing your employers interest in you.
A position offered via an agency (because Ryanair won't touch you) with low wages (when you correct for tax, selffunded typeratings, selfsponsored nightstops and transportation, uniforms etc.) and a generally poor lifestyle - which is killing your private life as well as your prof. life - is not a job, but a hobby, lifestyle - or.... it's what you need to do, to get the hours to be able to qualify for a real job.
Consider it as such. Do the math, find out if you need and can afford to be employed by Ryanair, financially and personally. If the answer is yes, then sign one of their s-h-i-t-t-y contracts.
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SpectreLover-
My plan for September - 93 hours , 14 days flying , 12 days off , 4 SBY's .
I will be at home with my family every day , the latest arrival hopefully will be 23.30 local et c. Even if I am asked to go to any meetings I won't go to any of them .
I am RYR Captain . Tell me how your life stile is better than mine if I like flying and I spend at home at least 14 full days every month .
My plan for September - 93 hours , 14 days flying , 12 days off , 4 SBY's .
I will be at home with my family every day , the latest arrival hopefully will be 23.30 local et c. Even if I am asked to go to any meetings I won't go to any of them .
I am RYR Captain . Tell me how your life stile is better than mine if I like flying and I spend at home at least 14 full days every month .
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Aloue, this is not worth a discussion about my lifestyle vs. yours.
If you are happy with things, I am glad on your behalf.
My post was directed to pilots thinking about joining Ryanair, or those types of companies. The headline for this discussion is: "Is Ryanair worth it?" - and I think not.
You are a captain with Ryanair, and since you are home every night, you are probably on the fixed base contract or have been lucky with your various base contract this month.
This is NOT the reality for many pilots with Ryanair, and most new pilots coming to Ryanair.
They are offered a contract via a contract agency (legally separating the employee from FR) to join with 65 Euro per block hour, and have to pay for their own hotel, transportation, uniform etc. They are not given a base, and have not got any job security what so ever. They even have to pay for their type rating, if they dont have this when joining.
If production goes down, or Ryanair does not like them anymore (not coming to BS meetings with MOL) - they are simply not scheduled to fly anymore.
Thats why I think that Ryanair is not worth it if you are thinking about joining them in order to get a job. However, as I said, if you are new and you need some fast turbojet hours - it might be worth a try.
If you are happy with things, I am glad on your behalf.
My post was directed to pilots thinking about joining Ryanair, or those types of companies. The headline for this discussion is: "Is Ryanair worth it?" - and I think not.
You are a captain with Ryanair, and since you are home every night, you are probably on the fixed base contract or have been lucky with your various base contract this month.
This is NOT the reality for many pilots with Ryanair, and most new pilots coming to Ryanair.
They are offered a contract via a contract agency (legally separating the employee from FR) to join with 65 Euro per block hour, and have to pay for their own hotel, transportation, uniform etc. They are not given a base, and have not got any job security what so ever. They even have to pay for their type rating, if they dont have this when joining.
If production goes down, or Ryanair does not like them anymore (not coming to BS meetings with MOL) - they are simply not scheduled to fly anymore.
Thats why I think that Ryanair is not worth it if you are thinking about joining them in order to get a job. However, as I said, if you are new and you need some fast turbojet hours - it might be worth a try.
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SpectreLover-
Thank you for your reply . I think the answer can be given only by Contract Captains . The majority of them are not desperate people . Yesterday I spoke to guy who is very happy about operating from different bases . That all depends . He has flown for twenty or more years all around the world and would be easily accepted by some other airline .
Good luck anyway! Unfortunately 80% of info here is too far from reality .
Thank you for your reply . I think the answer can be given only by Contract Captains . The majority of them are not desperate people . Yesterday I spoke to guy who is very happy about operating from different bases . That all depends . He has flown for twenty or more years all around the world and would be easily accepted by some other airline .
Good luck anyway! Unfortunately 80% of info here is too far from reality .
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Benzin, there are many, many realities in Ryanair. If you are really a Ryanair pilot you must be very isolated if you believe that what is said here is "far from reality".
After all, even "the" block hour figure for contract captains quoted by SpectreLover varies quite considerably, depending upon what contract you enjoy. (I know somebody who gets a LOT more).
But that does not make 80% of what is written here wrong. It just means that it does not apply to you and that you feel quite happy and secure in your little world. You are welcome to take that approach if you want, but to deny the realities that are around you AND be so self-satisified is a bit much.
So here is my challenge to you: please tell us what has been written here that it is misleading for potential new Ryanair pilots (not just contract pilots, who enjoy the best terms).
After all, even "the" block hour figure for contract captains quoted by SpectreLover varies quite considerably, depending upon what contract you enjoy. (I know somebody who gets a LOT more).
But that does not make 80% of what is written here wrong. It just means that it does not apply to you and that you feel quite happy and secure in your little world. You are welcome to take that approach if you want, but to deny the realities that are around you AND be so self-satisified is a bit much.
So here is my challenge to you: please tell us what has been written here that it is misleading for potential new Ryanair pilots (not just contract pilots, who enjoy the best terms).
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atse-
You can challenge yourself . I have enough challenges in my life .
"Abuse is a standard situation you will have to face however your performance is....:
Nobody has abused me in four years .
So my small world is probably different from yours .
There is nothing to talk about .
You can challenge yourself . I have enough challenges in my life .
"Abuse is a standard situation you will have to face however your performance is....:
Nobody has abused me in four years .
So my small world is probably different from yours .
There is nothing to talk about .
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Benzin -
I take that response to mean that you are not prepared to offer evidence to support your claim, but do want to assert that you are quite satisfied with yourself. You are more than welcome to do so.
But if you make claims here you should be prepared to justify them. This is especially the case if you call the claims made by others into question - which is just what you did.
I take that response to mean that you are not prepared to offer evidence to support your claim, but do want to assert that you are quite satisfied with yourself. You are more than welcome to do so.
But if you make claims here you should be prepared to justify them. This is especially the case if you call the claims made by others into question - which is just what you did.
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Good replies from all. Just amazes me what differences there are in the company. One guy is very happy and is 14 days a month of and all days at home. The other is 10 days of and has to sleep 10 days a month in some sleezy hotel, for he cannot afford more.
Mean time the king on the throne in Ireland has created nice split in the pilots mutual will power to stand up for themselfs. I guess the old divide and rule principle.
In the newspaper one month ago:
two ryanair pilots were fired (or are not scheduled in any more), for jumping in the toilet of a plane. Now I am not suggesting this is acceptable but if ryanair wants these guys to sort out ther own travel to the base they want them to be, and they suggest to do that jumping with ryanair (for a positioning ticket will fall under duty time, jumping not), they will play it like that. When they get in trouble, ofcourse ryanair doesn“t give a rats ass. But if they have do go jumping in a toilet like this to save the day..... well..... Those bad bad pilots.
Again, I don“t approve of jumping in a toilet, but Ryanair chiefs are creating this situation themselfs, and then blame it on the pilots who are just trying to make a living.
Cheers guys
Mean time the king on the throne in Ireland has created nice split in the pilots mutual will power to stand up for themselfs. I guess the old divide and rule principle.
In the newspaper one month ago:
two ryanair pilots were fired (or are not scheduled in any more), for jumping in the toilet of a plane. Now I am not suggesting this is acceptable but if ryanair wants these guys to sort out ther own travel to the base they want them to be, and they suggest to do that jumping with ryanair (for a positioning ticket will fall under duty time, jumping not), they will play it like that. When they get in trouble, ofcourse ryanair doesn“t give a rats ass. But if they have do go jumping in a toilet like this to save the day..... well..... Those bad bad pilots.
Again, I don“t approve of jumping in a toilet, but Ryanair chiefs are creating this situation themselfs, and then blame it on the pilots who are just trying to make a living.
Cheers guys
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eijk1234,
Before you post such utter BS please try go get your facts right:
a) the people in question were cabin crew coming back from a HOLIDAY and were on standby tickets and the flight was full
b) the captain of that flight let them on the flight even though it meant they had to sit in the toilet
c) the parties involved are no longer with the company
Don't go looking fot trouble when there isn't any! I know FR isn't the perfect company but it also has a lot of good points still even though conditions have gone to pieces.
Before you post such utter BS please try go get your facts right:
a) the people in question were cabin crew coming back from a HOLIDAY and were on standby tickets and the flight was full
b) the captain of that flight let them on the flight even though it meant they had to sit in the toilet
c) the parties involved are no longer with the company
Don't go looking fot trouble when there isn't any! I know FR isn't the perfect company but it also has a lot of good points still even though conditions have gone to pieces.
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Point taken Irishman, as ones again I believed the rumours which appear to be not based on the facts.
Thanks for getting the first hand info to me and showing me the right story. Sorry!
Thanks for getting the first hand info to me and showing me the right story. Sorry!