Age Discrimination - help needed!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Hartlepool
Age: 79
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Age Discrimination - help needed!
Hi,
I will be shortly arriving at the point at which my company will want to consign me to the scrap heap of used pilots before becoming time expired! I’m seeking information from colleagues employed by UK airlines regarding the retirement policies in their own companies.
What would be helpful is the wording for such terms as:
If you’d prefer not to choke up this forum then please contact me at:
Many thanks in anticipation.
Packsonflite
I will be shortly arriving at the point at which my company will want to consign me to the scrap heap of used pilots before becoming time expired! I’m seeking information from colleagues employed by UK airlines regarding the retirement policies in their own companies.
What would be helpful is the wording for such terms as:
- Normal Retirement Date
- Compulsory/Mandatory Retirement Date (if such a term exists)
- Whether or not your company allows pilots age 60+ to remain in service, and if so can they remain in the left hand seat?
- If retirement is mandatory on reaching a certain age, how is that worded in your contract or collective agreement.
- Is you company taking note of the fact that as from 1st October, 2006 it will be illegal under EU law to have any sort of compulsory retirement age.
If you’d prefer not to choke up this forum then please contact me at:
Many thanks in anticipation.
Packsonflite
Last edited by packsonflite; 10th May 2004 at 11:10.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: gatwick
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why not retire gracefully, take up a hobby and allow your position to be filled by a more junior pilot which will have a knock on effect right down to the aspiring flying instructor (probably up to his / her neck in debt) getting their first airline job!
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think that most of us young guys and gals will need that extra five years, just to be making the same money by the time that we get to where you are now.
I am in agreement that there needs to be some movement in the industry as too much stagnation is never a good thing.
-273
I am in agreement that there needs to be some movement in the industry as too much stagnation is never a good thing.
-273
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Nova
Posts: 1,242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
packsonflite, you said:
"All of whom will have an additional 5 years in their careers because of forthcoming age discrimination law - something that I'm being denied!!!"
But of course, that is wrong!
Firstly, as you mentioned previously, retirement will NOT be delayed by 5 years, as there will be NO retirement age, so how long do you think you would like?
It is also WRONG to suggest everyone will gain 5 years (or whatever YOU decide) Only people currently in their preferred jobs, will experience anything other than an indefinite delay to their aspirations!
Everyone will be effectively COMPELLED to continue until they lose their medical, simply in order to recoup their career losses!
If you have a half decent pension. (and with such a quaint e-mail as yours, I assume you do!) Don't try to con anybody into thinking your motivation is anything other than completely selfish!
"All of whom will have an additional 5 years in their careers because of forthcoming age discrimination law - something that I'm being denied!!!"
But of course, that is wrong!
Firstly, as you mentioned previously, retirement will NOT be delayed by 5 years, as there will be NO retirement age, so how long do you think you would like?
It is also WRONG to suggest everyone will gain 5 years (or whatever YOU decide) Only people currently in their preferred jobs, will experience anything other than an indefinite delay to their aspirations!
Everyone will be effectively COMPELLED to continue until they lose their medical, simply in order to recoup their career losses!
If you have a half decent pension. (and with such a quaint e-mail as yours, I assume you do!) Don't try to con anybody into thinking your motivation is anything other than completely selfish!
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can't wait to get the hell out of this industry at 55.
If you need to work longer than that, you have not managed to plan your life adequately enough.
How do you know when you're gonna drop dead?
Don't you want a few work free years to enjoy laying in in the mornings and getting pissed at lunchtimes, or do you really want cockpit to coffin direct?
If you need to work longer than that, you have not managed to plan your life adequately enough.
How do you know when you're gonna drop dead?
Don't you want a few work free years to enjoy laying in in the mornings and getting pissed at lunchtimes, or do you really want cockpit to coffin direct?
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: North of Watford Gap
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, packsonflite, I hope you learned your lesson not to ask for help on Pprune. You have to try to pick out the useful information from among the tirade of judgemental criticism from embittered wannabes resentful of the career you have built.
I would recommend one of the lo-costs who allow 60+ commanders (albeit with route restrictions) and are campaigning for our European brethren to lift the restrictions on 60+ captains; however, whether you really want to put yourself through their grinding rosters at your stage of the game is another thing entirely.
I assume you have raided the BALPA archives on this question? (NB shouldn't this be in "Questions"?)
Wish you the best of luck in securing future employment.
I would recommend one of the lo-costs who allow 60+ commanders (albeit with route restrictions) and are campaigning for our European brethren to lift the restrictions on 60+ captains; however, whether you really want to put yourself through their grinding rosters at your stage of the game is another thing entirely.
I assume you have raided the BALPA archives on this question? (NB shouldn't this be in "Questions"?)
Wish you the best of luck in securing future employment.
Last edited by Morpheme; 10th May 2004 at 09:02.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Hartlepool
Age: 79
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tandem Rotor
I used the illustration of 5 years as that is the difference between age 60, the limit that most airlines are currently enforcing, and the JAA ATPL age cut-off of 65; I can’t see that moving upwards In the short term. The whole point of the new legislation is that it gives people choice as to when they want go.
The assumption that everyone will want to continue beyond their current NRD is a misconception as illustrated by Mentaleena who can’t wait to get out. My experience has been that only a relatively small number of pilots will want to stay on for a few extra years.
It is always assumed that having reach NRD that one has total financial security with no commitments. It’s assumed that we all have the financial acumen of an investment banker, have been living for years on 6 figure salaries, have a yacht in the marina and at least one overseas holiday home.
In reality many approaching retirement still have young families and big mortgages to support, to say nothing of their continuing financial commitment to a first family; university education doesn’t come cheap!
It’s also commonly assumed that one has had a full career with the same company and that a pension when matured will have reached the Inland Revenue limit. This is also a fallacy. There are many colleagues out there who after many years of loyal service to the same company became unemployed because their employer went bust. In the worst cases they found pension fund had been plundered by the employer whilst in others they discivered that the pension fund had been seriously under-funded for many years.
Shuttleworth
Cheap jibe! My e-mail address is no different than you choosing Shuttleworth or someone else using Tandemrotor.
Morpheme
Many thanks for your support. I certainly have looked through the BALPA stuff and have also been in touch with the LTN Orange – still awaiting a response. My preferred option would however be to remain with my current employer.
As to some of the responses thus far, that was entirely to be expected!
Packsonflite
I used the illustration of 5 years as that is the difference between age 60, the limit that most airlines are currently enforcing, and the JAA ATPL age cut-off of 65; I can’t see that moving upwards In the short term. The whole point of the new legislation is that it gives people choice as to when they want go.
The assumption that everyone will want to continue beyond their current NRD is a misconception as illustrated by Mentaleena who can’t wait to get out. My experience has been that only a relatively small number of pilots will want to stay on for a few extra years.
It is always assumed that having reach NRD that one has total financial security with no commitments. It’s assumed that we all have the financial acumen of an investment banker, have been living for years on 6 figure salaries, have a yacht in the marina and at least one overseas holiday home.
In reality many approaching retirement still have young families and big mortgages to support, to say nothing of their continuing financial commitment to a first family; university education doesn’t come cheap!
It’s also commonly assumed that one has had a full career with the same company and that a pension when matured will have reached the Inland Revenue limit. This is also a fallacy. There are many colleagues out there who after many years of loyal service to the same company became unemployed because their employer went bust. In the worst cases they found pension fund had been plundered by the employer whilst in others they discivered that the pension fund had been seriously under-funded for many years.
Shuttleworth
Cheap jibe! My e-mail address is no different than you choosing Shuttleworth or someone else using Tandemrotor.
Morpheme
Many thanks for your support. I certainly have looked through the BALPA stuff and have also been in touch with the LTN Orange – still awaiting a response. My preferred option would however be to remain with my current employer.
As to some of the responses thus far, that was entirely to be expected!
Packsonflite
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 228
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pilots joining easyJet are contracted to age 60.
Pilots who joined more than about 2 years ago are contracted to 65, and captains over 60 are limited by the rules in a few European states, and are therefore rostered accordingly.
There will probably be no change to this policy until over 60's have unlimited flying rights over Europe.
Therefore, unfortunately, anyone over about 57 or 58 has little chance of getting in. Unless, of course, requirements change, or you are type-rated, current, and a TRE (on type).
Pilots who joined more than about 2 years ago are contracted to 65, and captains over 60 are limited by the rules in a few European states, and are therefore rostered accordingly.
There will probably be no change to this policy until over 60's have unlimited flying rights over Europe.
Therefore, unfortunately, anyone over about 57 or 58 has little chance of getting in. Unless, of course, requirements change, or you are type-rated, current, and a TRE (on type).
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: gatwick
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What about some aspiring pilot with a 60k loan who can't get a job because selfish old gits are flying well past their sell by date and keeping all the decent jet jobs clogged up.
Do us all a favour. Give it up!!
Do us all a favour. Give it up!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Hartlepool
Age: 79
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
srjumbo
You've already said that, haven't you anything more original?
The law will be here in just over two years time so you'd probably better get used to the idea!!!
You've already said that, haven't you anything more original?
The law will be here in just over two years time so you'd probably better get used to the idea!!!
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can't believe the selfishness of those who want you to stop doing what you want/need to.
I would like to encourage all those who can to stay on as long as possible to reduce the number of prats who ........
No need for jibes - good luck Packs.
I would like to encourage all those who can to stay on as long as possible to reduce the number of prats who ........
No need for jibes - good luck Packs.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
srjumbo
If you should choose to use the search function you will find at least two good threads here all about flying after the age of sixty etc. Possibly you are too young to know this but the original retirement age in the UK was 65. This was arbitrarily changed to sixty without there being any medical or other evidence to support this reduction. Many of us had, overnight, five years lopped off our anticipated flying careers. It is only right and proper that it should be restored as soon as possible. The brief honeymoon whilst the age was sixty is about to end but did give a lot of people an early command, life is about to return to normal.
If you could view it as such you might not be quite so bitter!
Anyone able to retire at age 55 doesn't really count as they obviously work for one of the few major carriers that offers a substantial retirement scheme!
Here are a few previous age sixty rule threads for you.
If you could view it as such you might not be quite so bitter!
Anyone able to retire at age 55 doesn't really count as they obviously work for one of the few major carriers that offers a substantial retirement scheme!
Here are a few previous age sixty rule threads for you.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Hartlepool
Age: 79
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Blue Eagle
Many thanks for that, particularly the search link. I managed to clean some very useful information.
From my own recent research I offer the following:
There are only three EU countries that currently hold exemptions from
JAR-FCL 1.060 - Curtailment of privileges of licence holders aged 60 years or more
and these are France, Italy and the Czech Republic.
http://www.jaa.nl/section1/jars/451854.pdf
I was informed by BALPA that Portugal also applies the age 60 rule, but having consulted the CAA it would appear that they only apply it to those employed by Portuguese airlines. Thus the JAR-FCL restrictions apply to all others.
I have a copy of the latest up to date CAA list of countries accepting pilots over age 60. If anyone would like a copy please e-mail me at: [email protected]
The UK legislation that will outlaw age discrimination in accordance with the EU accord will be brought before Parliament this autumn and the consultative document, Age Matters, which is well written in plain English, is available here:
http://www.dti.gov.uk/er/equality/age_consultation.pdf
As has already been stated the legislation will have to be in place ready to take effect from 1st October, 2006.
and finally....
Could the person who sent me a PPRUNE personal message inviting me to take part in a class action on this issue please get in touch again as I failed to save a copy of the message – must be old age!!!!
Packsonflite
Many thanks for that, particularly the search link. I managed to clean some very useful information.
From my own recent research I offer the following:
There are only three EU countries that currently hold exemptions from
JAR-FCL 1.060 - Curtailment of privileges of licence holders aged 60 years or more
and these are France, Italy and the Czech Republic.
- France bans any public transport flight within its own airspace where the commander is over age 60.
- Italy adheres to the ICAO age 60 rule but does permit flights through its airspace with commanders are over age 60.
- The Czech Republic currently has a limit of age 62.
- San Marino is ok so long as you fly above 21,000 feet!!!!!!
http://www.jaa.nl/section1/jars/451854.pdf
I was informed by BALPA that Portugal also applies the age 60 rule, but having consulted the CAA it would appear that they only apply it to those employed by Portuguese airlines. Thus the JAR-FCL restrictions apply to all others.
I have a copy of the latest up to date CAA list of countries accepting pilots over age 60. If anyone would like a copy please e-mail me at: [email protected]
The UK legislation that will outlaw age discrimination in accordance with the EU accord will be brought before Parliament this autumn and the consultative document, Age Matters, which is well written in plain English, is available here:
http://www.dti.gov.uk/er/equality/age_consultation.pdf
As has already been stated the legislation will have to be in place ready to take effect from 1st October, 2006.
and finally....
Could the person who sent me a PPRUNE personal message inviting me to take part in a class action on this issue please get in touch again as I failed to save a copy of the message – must be old age!!!!
Packsonflite
Last edited by packsonflite; 11th May 2004 at 08:02.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Blue Eagle
You couldn't be MORE wrong if you tried.
I work for a loco and it is precisely that fact that made me make up my mind to get out at 55. Money/work is not all one's life should be about.
My view is that after n number of years flying, being phoned out of bed at a crazy hour of a day, being sent taxiing around the country, being not fed and worked to unbelieveable "LEGAL" limits, one has a duty to look after themselves and have earnt the right to not work.
So your assumption that 55-ers must be working for a main line somewhere needs to go back on the drawing board mate.
You couldn't be MORE wrong if you tried.
I work for a loco and it is precisely that fact that made me make up my mind to get out at 55. Money/work is not all one's life should be about.
My view is that after n number of years flying, being phoned out of bed at a crazy hour of a day, being sent taxiing around the country, being not fed and worked to unbelieveable "LEGAL" limits, one has a duty to look after themselves and have earnt the right to not work.
So your assumption that 55-ers must be working for a main line somewhere needs to go back on the drawing board mate.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: England
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What a fascinating thread - partially for the subject matter, and partially because of the attitudes being displayed. From a selfish point of view there are a substantial number of pilots who came late to the profession, and spent their life savings to get there. The extra five years could make a huge difference to that group.
I'd like to belive the "p
s off & take up golf you old git" brigade were merely being humorous or ironic, but it does appear that there are rather more of them than that. If wanting to stay until 65 is selfish (and it isn't), surely wanting someone with a good career and a current medical to leave so you can get a job is even more so?
I'd like to belive the "p
s off & take up golf you old git" brigade were merely being humorous or ironic, but it does appear that there are rather more of them than that. If wanting to stay until 65 is selfish (and it isn't), surely wanting someone with a good career and a current medical to leave so you can get a job is even more so?