Brookfield/ryanair contract pilot forced to fix base
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: not in paradise
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In that case seems to me that it is probably better to fly out of your base.
I´ve been told that I could expect to work 50% in my base and the other away.
When you said that you spend 700 pounds in a month I assume that is flying out of your base for the whole month.
How much do you normaly spend when away for a 5 roster days?
Many thanks in advance, once again. Your info is very much appreciated.
I´ve been told that I could expect to work 50% in my base and the other away.
When you said that you spend 700 pounds in a month I assume that is flying out of your base for the whole month.
How much do you normaly spend when away for a 5 roster days?
Many thanks in advance, once again. Your info is very much appreciated.
Join Date: Apr 2004
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The amount spent varies enormously with the base. e.g. Sweden is expensive BUT there is a good deal with a hotel in NYO covering accom and meals and cheap transport. I'm told that CIA is much more expensive as is CRL. If you live at the base then that is obviously the best deal but most contractors don't, so have significant costs to cover SBY's as well as flying days.
Join Date: May 2003
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You can take the contract and the money you earn is enough to
pay a insurance for income protection, the tax, the commuting,
the hotel where you stay during duty period, the higher expense
for meals and and and. If You are realisic to consider this in the
calculation then you will see what you really earn.
You fly 900 hrs per year if you do not get sick and if you are
allways available for duty. That gives you about 10.000 EURO per
month. Then deduct the amount you pay for health insurance, for
retirement savings, for commuting, for the accomodation, for the
expense on meals, for the use of mobile phone roaming to call
the OPS, when you are elsewhere. If you want to play it safe you
pay tax AFTER deduction from the amount of expenses and then
it depends where you are resident/taxpayer you can only betray
yourself by finding you earning NET more money then in other
cockpits. It depends what is important for you. Consider what is
your goal and target. Then you can go for that contract. During
Ryanair contract you organize everything what the admin would
do for you in a normal airline. They make the Hotel reservation
for you, they schedule and pay the transportation to from and
to the airport. They administer the transportation to and from
another base. In Ryanair you do that all for you. That is why you
get the 134 EURO per block hour. For an LLC it is cheaper as
they have no follow up costs in doing that for the crews. They
would need more people work in the office to do this job. So
by giving you the money the giving you as well the responsibility
for it and they have a lean calculation. They do not have the risk
that somebody calls in sick. The person in charge of dealing with
this issue has to be replaced. They do not have to pay the sick
person and have somebody else to do the work. It is a question
of how a company is structured. The LCC has to be lean as much
as possible in all areas. Only on the back of all the people who
work there you are able to run the continues profitable succes.
Under contract the only one who is looking after you is YOU!.
After 10 years under various contracts I have seen a lot of
bullocks on paper what lookes good and is worth the same as
the paper to your right side when you sitting on the toilet, after
you used that paper......
Sorry about the extense posting but I hope it is worth to read.
NG
pay a insurance for income protection, the tax, the commuting,
the hotel where you stay during duty period, the higher expense
for meals and and and. If You are realisic to consider this in the
calculation then you will see what you really earn.
You fly 900 hrs per year if you do not get sick and if you are
allways available for duty. That gives you about 10.000 EURO per
month. Then deduct the amount you pay for health insurance, for
retirement savings, for commuting, for the accomodation, for the
expense on meals, for the use of mobile phone roaming to call
the OPS, when you are elsewhere. If you want to play it safe you
pay tax AFTER deduction from the amount of expenses and then
it depends where you are resident/taxpayer you can only betray
yourself by finding you earning NET more money then in other
cockpits. It depends what is important for you. Consider what is
your goal and target. Then you can go for that contract. During
Ryanair contract you organize everything what the admin would
do for you in a normal airline. They make the Hotel reservation
for you, they schedule and pay the transportation to from and
to the airport. They administer the transportation to and from
another base. In Ryanair you do that all for you. That is why you
get the 134 EURO per block hour. For an LLC it is cheaper as
they have no follow up costs in doing that for the crews. They
would need more people work in the office to do this job. So
by giving you the money the giving you as well the responsibility
for it and they have a lean calculation. They do not have the risk
that somebody calls in sick. The person in charge of dealing with
this issue has to be replaced. They do not have to pay the sick
person and have somebody else to do the work. It is a question
of how a company is structured. The LCC has to be lean as much
as possible in all areas. Only on the back of all the people who
work there you are able to run the continues profitable succes.
Under contract the only one who is looking after you is YOU!.
After 10 years under various contracts I have seen a lot of
bullocks on paper what lookes good and is worth the same as
the paper to your right side when you sitting on the toilet, after
you used that paper......
Sorry about the extense posting but I hope it is worth to read.
NG
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: not in paradise
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Ok so I get the picture but what you don´t understand is that at the end of the day there is no guaranteed on how many hours you are going to fly a year. And standbys away from your base and you paying for all the costs, please don´t take the p**s. I like the whole idea but I still think there are some things in that contract that do look a bit strange (5 days away from base and not flying on a standby) ???????????
Form a company point of view this setup is just the best. They can use you, send you wherever, do what they want with you and the best of all is that it doen´t cost them a penny because if you are not needed simply just don´t call you.
I know the grass is not greener on the other side or al least in my side but sorry this contract is a bit cr....sh.
Just to cuote I´ll be a poor FO on a 65€ an hour mines 4.5€ for the cost of all recurrent training so maybe you can understand my concerns now.
Form a company point of view this setup is just the best. They can use you, send you wherever, do what they want with you and the best of all is that it doen´t cost them a penny because if you are not needed simply just don´t call you.
I know the grass is not greener on the other side or al least in my side but sorry this contract is a bit cr....sh.
Just to cuote I´ll be a poor FO on a 65€ an hour mines 4.5€ for the cost of all recurrent training so maybe you can understand my concerns now.
Join Date: Apr 2004
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Jedy- You are beginnng to to see how it really is! I think particularly for an FO it is NOT a good deal. People that joined before December last year did not lose the additional amount for recurrent training either! What seems to be happening is that they are gradually "ratcheting down" the conditions for each group of new contracts. Many of the permanent FO's I have flown with lately are unhappy with the way they are treated by the company and they have generally better treatment than contract FO's!
A year or so ago when Ryanair was making huge profits they came up with the idea of using contractors to give them flexibility and also to reduce the chance of any strong industrial groupings evolving amongst the pilot group. The ORIGINAL pay rates related to the real cost of employing aircrew- offsetting adminstration and other costs but still with a financial benefit to Ryanair NOT the pilots. Since then they have gradually been attempting to take away a little bit at a time-- almost in proportion to the reduced profitability of the airline as more and more competition from other operators occurred. This is an airline like no other I have ever experienced-- there is very little support to an individual and the more vulnerable staff (i.e. more junior) are often bullied by management who follow the aggressive policies of senior management.
In terms of experience gained in a given time this can be a valuable learning tool for anyone wanting to gain a command but fewer and fewer pilots see the airline as a long term employer-- just a step on the way!
A year or so ago when Ryanair was making huge profits they came up with the idea of using contractors to give them flexibility and also to reduce the chance of any strong industrial groupings evolving amongst the pilot group. The ORIGINAL pay rates related to the real cost of employing aircrew- offsetting adminstration and other costs but still with a financial benefit to Ryanair NOT the pilots. Since then they have gradually been attempting to take away a little bit at a time-- almost in proportion to the reduced profitability of the airline as more and more competition from other operators occurred. This is an airline like no other I have ever experienced-- there is very little support to an individual and the more vulnerable staff (i.e. more junior) are often bullied by management who follow the aggressive policies of senior management.
In terms of experience gained in a given time this can be a valuable learning tool for anyone wanting to gain a command but fewer and fewer pilots see the airline as a long term employer-- just a step on the way!
Join Date: Dec 2000
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Never ever heard of a company having you go somewhere on your own money just to be on STBY and not paying you.
If they want the luxury of a contractor on STBY, very well but they pay the contract rate, period.
Also the new 5 ON / 3 OFF is a mockery, me think, if you consider you can fly from wherever it suits them.
If they want the luxury of a contractor on STBY, very well but they pay the contract rate, period.
Also the new 5 ON / 3 OFF is a mockery, me think, if you consider you can fly from wherever it suits them.
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Thanks very much for all the info. As far as I care you are 100% rigth, all I want is to gain a very good experience (jet time) 737 type rating, perhaps a good opportunity to gain quick command and as long as I make a decent salary for a year or so I´ll be happy.
Seems that this is the state of all airlines now a days but maybe with all the recruitment taking place at the moment they will struggle to keep or recruit pilots.
No doubt it´ll be a steep in the ladder
Seems that this is the state of all airlines now a days but maybe with all the recruitment taking place at the moment they will struggle to keep or recruit pilots.
No doubt it´ll be a steep in the ladder
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From what i understand from the contract you cannot have more than 4 STBY's in any month I quote,
Principles of the ¡§Scheduling contract Pilots
„« All Flight Time limitations shall be subject to the current IAA approved FTL system.
„« No more than a planned series of 4 blocks in any one base
„« No through the night flying planned & only 4 standby¡¦s within 28 day period
„« Base-to-Base flying within the planned block of scheduled work i.e. To reduce contract pilot requirement to position from base to base within a block of scheduled work.
Am I right in thinking this? At least one knows what to expect?
Thanks again of all the inside info....
Well I\'ve just made my mind up!
I\'ve been called off STBY again someone not wanting to work in the sunshine so I have to!!!
I\'m fed up really. I have reached my 100hr 28 day limit so in stead of getting rest days I keep being put on stby which is worse as somebody else who is fed up just calls in sick and one is left covering and all for about an extra £10 duty pay. Now also my duty tomrw is changed from 4 sectors to Stby then 2 sectors due high hrs so who knows what will happen. I have just had enough!!!!!
I\'ll hopefully be seeing you all on the line at FR soon!!!!!
Principles of the ¡§Scheduling contract Pilots
„« All Flight Time limitations shall be subject to the current IAA approved FTL system.
„« No more than a planned series of 4 blocks in any one base
„« No through the night flying planned & only 4 standby¡¦s within 28 day period
„« Base-to-Base flying within the planned block of scheduled work i.e. To reduce contract pilot requirement to position from base to base within a block of scheduled work.
Am I right in thinking this? At least one knows what to expect?
Thanks again of all the inside info....
Well I\'ve just made my mind up!
I\'ve been called off STBY again someone not wanting to work in the sunshine so I have to!!!
I\'m fed up really. I have reached my 100hr 28 day limit so in stead of getting rest days I keep being put on stby which is worse as somebody else who is fed up just calls in sick and one is left covering and all for about an extra £10 duty pay. Now also my duty tomrw is changed from 4 sectors to Stby then 2 sectors due high hrs so who knows what will happen. I have just had enough!!!!!
I\'ll hopefully be seeing you all on the line at FR soon!!!!!
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Brookmans Park,
I have heard said rumour but can't figure out whether there's any truth in it.
Regarding the dodgy rostering, there is someone new at EMA doing the rosters and needs a bit of time to get into the swing of things, so this should be back to normal before long.
I have heard said rumour but can't figure out whether there's any truth in it.
Regarding the dodgy rostering, there is someone new at EMA doing the rosters and needs a bit of time to get into the swing of things, so this should be back to normal before long.
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The reason that they are forcing bases is so that the taxman can get you!!!!...... gotta pay tax and social costs somewhere and the EU is getting a bit
with the antics of this company. To pay a pilot per hour134 EUR OK, but if paid through the system it would cost Ryanair 264 EUR. This is just illegal and may seem generous but watch out guys the EU is looking closely at all this type of payment, and no good stashing it in Isle of Man and Jersey accounts either...... that is all about to change. Think there may be a mass exodus to the Middle East soon, what the name of that new company in DXB??
with the antics of this company. To pay a pilot per hour134 EUR OK, but if paid through the system it would cost Ryanair 264 EUR. This is just illegal and may seem generous but watch out guys the EU is looking closely at all this type of payment, and no good stashing it in Isle of Man and Jersey accounts either...... that is all about to change. Think there may be a mass exodus to the Middle East soon, what the name of that new company in DXB??
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Look at the maths.
Contract pilot works 900 hours per year, (if lucky). 450 hrs of that will now be at base. Very few pilots live anywhere a base but 450 x 20 = 9000euros pay cut, but most likely with no cost cut for the pilot.
Contract captain works 900hrs pa and is paid 102600euros = 68400GBP. No share options, no holiday pay, no sick pay, no uniform or loss of licence pay or other insurances. No guarantee of work at all.
A fulltime RYR captain in UK, if flying 900 hrs pa earns +90,000GBP. After the contract captain pays tax somewhere he earns net less than a fulltime RYR F/O, who has all the fringe benefits etc.
This is not to mention the costs of attending the sim for LPC's etc at your own cost, whereas the fulltimers are paid as duty days.
At the end of it the contract pilots are being mightly screwed. This is not an honest cost saving exercise, it is exploitation of desperate pilots. After what costs are necessary to get yourself into the position to offered a contract you need to be rich or desperate to consider it. Sad, but the market rules.
Having said that, there is a shortage of captains, especailly type rated, so perhaps things might change for all the operators.
Contract pilot works 900 hours per year, (if lucky). 450 hrs of that will now be at base. Very few pilots live anywhere a base but 450 x 20 = 9000euros pay cut, but most likely with no cost cut for the pilot.
Contract captain works 900hrs pa and is paid 102600euros = 68400GBP. No share options, no holiday pay, no sick pay, no uniform or loss of licence pay or other insurances. No guarantee of work at all.
A fulltime RYR captain in UK, if flying 900 hrs pa earns +90,000GBP. After the contract captain pays tax somewhere he earns net less than a fulltime RYR F/O, who has all the fringe benefits etc.
This is not to mention the costs of attending the sim for LPC's etc at your own cost, whereas the fulltimers are paid as duty days.
At the end of it the contract pilots are being mightly screwed. This is not an honest cost saving exercise, it is exploitation of desperate pilots. After what costs are necessary to get yourself into the position to offered a contract you need to be rich or desperate to consider it. Sad, but the market rules.
Having said that, there is a shortage of captains, especailly type rated, so perhaps things might change for all the operators.
