easyJet and BALPA
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BTB,
You seem to know so much, which affect so many, decided by so few.
Would you explain how BALPA representation can have more influence than who's hand was on the tiller or who has ultimate responsibility of the a/c.
Whilst two pairs of eyes are DESIRABLE to taxi an aircraft they are not necessary-otherwise the SOPs would forbid any checks or a clearance to be undertaken on the move.
To suggest that the FO, who must be reading this thread, will get hanged simply becase they are not BALPA is absurd.
Thank God no one was hurt and my best wishes go to the CREW.
BTB, this is a bad enough thing to happen before Christmas so don't make it worse by talking crap.
The two best things I did was leave easy and BALPA. That could have been any one of us in JM that day-don't forget that.
You seem to know so much, which affect so many, decided by so few.
Would you explain how BALPA representation can have more influence than who's hand was on the tiller or who has ultimate responsibility of the a/c.
Whilst two pairs of eyes are DESIRABLE to taxi an aircraft they are not necessary-otherwise the SOPs would forbid any checks or a clearance to be undertaken on the move.
To suggest that the FO, who must be reading this thread, will get hanged simply becase they are not BALPA is absurd.
Thank God no one was hurt and my best wishes go to the CREW.
BTB, this is a bad enough thing to happen before Christmas so don't make it worse by talking crap.
The two best things I did was leave easy and BALPA. That could have been any one of us in JM that day-don't forget that.
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Little Friend, you also have a Little Mind.. ah, so thats why you chose your user name...
In a company like easy, or indeed any company these days, you need Balpa, to say otherwise is foolish at best, plain derilict of your own wellbeing at worst.
You obviously have an axe to grind, but the reality is... strength in numbers, now thats simple enough for you is it not...? Balps has lots of faults, but without it, you really are on your "own"...
In a company like easy, or indeed any company these days, you need Balpa, to say otherwise is foolish at best, plain derilict of your own wellbeing at worst.
You obviously have an axe to grind, but the reality is... strength in numbers, now thats simple enough for you is it not...? Balps has lots of faults, but without it, you really are on your "own"...
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Turbo:
Sorry, but I'm with LF on this. Yes, BALPA's legal protection is great if it's going to help you, but as their pamphlets say, they'll only back you if you stand a better than 50:50 chance of winning, ie. you don't need them anyway.
As for them improving the lot of the pilots at EZY, there has been nothing but a further slide into the abyss since recognition. A few have worked hard at improvements, and we all know who they are. The others sit and defend the company at every oportunity and bang on about "moral high-grounds", as if it makes a difference. BALPA has done NOTHING for anyone at EZY, despite the strong efforts of a FEW on its council. It is simply a business. The only thing that RW will respond to is chronic crew shortage (even more sever than at present) due to industrial action or mass resignations. He simply walks all over any agreements that can be eeked out of him.
Sorry, but I'm with LF on this. Yes, BALPA's legal protection is great if it's going to help you, but as their pamphlets say, they'll only back you if you stand a better than 50:50 chance of winning, ie. you don't need them anyway.
As for them improving the lot of the pilots at EZY, there has been nothing but a further slide into the abyss since recognition. A few have worked hard at improvements, and we all know who they are. The others sit and defend the company at every oportunity and bang on about "moral high-grounds", as if it makes a difference. BALPA has done NOTHING for anyone at EZY, despite the strong efforts of a FEW on its council. It is simply a business. The only thing that RW will respond to is chronic crew shortage (even more sever than at present) due to industrial action or mass resignations. He simply walks all over any agreements that can be eeked out of him.
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This is way off thread but:
The sad fact of life is that if you have a good chance of winning, but take no representation, you go up against the other side, who have buckets poads of representation and they walk all over your cast iron case because of their experience in the field.
This captain is receiving FULL support. I know!
You say Balpa has done nothing for anyone at Easy, but you chose to ignore:
LOSA agreement
Disruption agreement and payment
Fixed, as opposed to chaos, rostering patterns
Airbus No Bond agreement
HOTAC and food changes
Airbus Course allowance package
Tripling the initial pay offer from the company last year
Or did I miss something and someone else did all that?
BTW, V. difficult to have industrial action without a recognised union!
No doubt while the due process takes it's course in dealing with this unfortunate incident in AMS, a small band of Pruners will continue to try. judge and execute anyone who was nearby at the time!
The sad fact of life is that if you have a good chance of winning, but take no representation, you go up against the other side, who have buckets poads of representation and they walk all over your cast iron case because of their experience in the field.
This captain is receiving FULL support. I know!
You say Balpa has done nothing for anyone at Easy, but you chose to ignore:
LOSA agreement
Disruption agreement and payment
Fixed, as opposed to chaos, rostering patterns
Airbus No Bond agreement
HOTAC and food changes
Airbus Course allowance package
Tripling the initial pay offer from the company last year
Or did I miss something and someone else did all that?
BTW, V. difficult to have industrial action without a recognised union!
No doubt while the due process takes it's course in dealing with this unfortunate incident in AMS, a small band of Pruners will continue to try. judge and execute anyone who was nearby at the time!
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Whippersnapper, I was not refering to the legal cover, I was pointing out the fact that without Balpa air crew are on their own when it comes to management.
I have worked under both, non-balpa and full recognition, the difference is actually quite sutble, but nonetheless their IS a difference. A seat at the top table is worth having, and trust me, the management do listen. The problem with easy seems to be the level of membership, something that is difficult to overcome, but must be fixed asap.
The Balpa recognised company I worked for had a high membership, but it also had a hard nosed CC, suffered no fools gladly and treated management with respect only once they had earned it...
Why do easy have aircrew who are NOT members of balpa? And put aside silly comments like "what have balpa ever done for me", it is what you can do for your collegues by joining balpa. Simple statement maybe, but true nevertheless...
I have worked under both, non-balpa and full recognition, the difference is actually quite sutble, but nonetheless their IS a difference. A seat at the top table is worth having, and trust me, the management do listen. The problem with easy seems to be the level of membership, something that is difficult to overcome, but must be fixed asap.
The Balpa recognised company I worked for had a high membership, but it also had a hard nosed CC, suffered no fools gladly and treated management with respect only once they had earned it...
Why do easy have aircrew who are NOT members of balpa? And put aside silly comments like "what have balpa ever done for me", it is what you can do for your collegues by joining balpa. Simple statement maybe, but true nevertheless...
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Simple analysis
Scenario 1
Company offers, for eg, 1% pay rise.
Balpa negotiate and achieve, for eg, 3.1% pay rise.
Result - Your Balpa membership fee has been sorted for the rest of your time with that company - and you are still in profit.
Scenario 2
Company offer, for eg, 1 pay rise.
You have no recognition, so nothing happens.
Company changes mind and gives 1/2% and you have no choice (no collective bargaining, strike would be illegal, strike threat would be laughed at etc etc) but to accept or change jobs.
It's a no-brainer really.
Scenario 1
Company offers, for eg, 1% pay rise.
Balpa negotiate and achieve, for eg, 3.1% pay rise.
Result - Your Balpa membership fee has been sorted for the rest of your time with that company - and you are still in profit.
Scenario 2
Company offer, for eg, 1 pay rise.
You have no recognition, so nothing happens.
Company changes mind and gives 1/2% and you have no choice (no collective bargaining, strike would be illegal, strike threat would be laughed at etc etc) but to accept or change jobs.
It's a no-brainer really.
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Flaps, Turbo(see if you can be polite this time),
You gave (Flaps) some examples above of what BALPA have done for the aircrew-I suppose they were your best efforts.
LOSA ?
Disruption. This is a cost easy always expected to pay and was built in to the negotiations. £1100 for crew food and 90% pay for new commands. Why are the crewing/rosters/ops on a performance related pay-to get you near 100%, flying easy rosters, means meanless SBY-or ****e POSing duties or the good old night ATH. They can't achieve their target without pissing you about. Changes etc..
Fixed rosters-nothing to do with BALPA. I would be very careful to associate myself with anything to do with easy rosters by way of blowing my own trumpet. So how is the 5 on 3 off going-or is it back to chaos rosters.
Airbus no bond-Nice one BALPA. You have just made easy training airline of the year. Lucky Dragonair-how is that going to improve 73 crew; and who would have signed it anyway-its not the crews fault that easy want new toys. Very Lo Cost.
HOTAC and Food. Just don't take the piss. Pay £1100 (thanks BALPA) and it got worse-all round. Ask the oracle BTB.
Airbus allowence package. Fantastic if your LGW, which you are, not so good if your BFS, LPL, EDI,GLA,NCL,LTN,BRS. Should not the time be used to sort leave issues, rosters, commands etc
Tripple pay offer. So after BALPA membership, £1100 for food and a continued unsustainable lifestyle. What was the real increase and what about 90% for new skippers.
Flaps, Just my piont of view-at least your having ago-but BALPA are not worth 1% gross-not even for the legal cover because they decide. You see we will always be the used car dealer that got into the golf club-just a subscription.
Also Flaps BALPA have issued some pretty stuipd memos-remember JFs one about the pilots joining NOW. You pay 1% for that level of brains/professionalism.
Trudbo Rick-Well done for missing my point. So your last company were great at negotiations in improving lifestyle. Why are you at easyJet.
I certainly do not have an axe to grind with easy as they don't with me-but I make no appologies for not buying the BALPA /orange ****e nor tolerate another plagiaristic display of how fantastic BALPA are. Talk to the IPF if you want crew protection. For improvements in lifestyle- leave. Simple.
My point was BTB should measure his comments before posting and think about the people involved. The FO can not share EQUAL responsibility in a TAXY incident. Anyway BALPA will decide.
Happy NY and SAFE flying
You gave (Flaps) some examples above of what BALPA have done for the aircrew-I suppose they were your best efforts.
LOSA ?
Disruption. This is a cost easy always expected to pay and was built in to the negotiations. £1100 for crew food and 90% pay for new commands. Why are the crewing/rosters/ops on a performance related pay-to get you near 100%, flying easy rosters, means meanless SBY-or ****e POSing duties or the good old night ATH. They can't achieve their target without pissing you about. Changes etc..
Fixed rosters-nothing to do with BALPA. I would be very careful to associate myself with anything to do with easy rosters by way of blowing my own trumpet. So how is the 5 on 3 off going-or is it back to chaos rosters.
Airbus no bond-Nice one BALPA. You have just made easy training airline of the year. Lucky Dragonair-how is that going to improve 73 crew; and who would have signed it anyway-its not the crews fault that easy want new toys. Very Lo Cost.
HOTAC and Food. Just don't take the piss. Pay £1100 (thanks BALPA) and it got worse-all round. Ask the oracle BTB.
Airbus allowence package. Fantastic if your LGW, which you are, not so good if your BFS, LPL, EDI,GLA,NCL,LTN,BRS. Should not the time be used to sort leave issues, rosters, commands etc
Tripple pay offer. So after BALPA membership, £1100 for food and a continued unsustainable lifestyle. What was the real increase and what about 90% for new skippers.
Flaps, Just my piont of view-at least your having ago-but BALPA are not worth 1% gross-not even for the legal cover because they decide. You see we will always be the used car dealer that got into the golf club-just a subscription.
Also Flaps BALPA have issued some pretty stuipd memos-remember JFs one about the pilots joining NOW. You pay 1% for that level of brains/professionalism.
Trudbo Rick-Well done for missing my point. So your last company were great at negotiations in improving lifestyle. Why are you at easyJet.
I certainly do not have an axe to grind with easy as they don't with me-but I make no appologies for not buying the BALPA /orange ****e nor tolerate another plagiaristic display of how fantastic BALPA are. Talk to the IPF if you want crew protection. For improvements in lifestyle- leave. Simple.
My point was BTB should measure his comments before posting and think about the people involved. The FO can not share EQUAL responsibility in a TAXY incident. Anyway BALPA will decide.
Happy NY and SAFE flying
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LOSA - look it up. It affects you and your work.
You still think you are paying £1100 for food. You are way off the mark and way out of date.
How do you know the disruption payment was built into the talks? Were you there? Did you have something to do with it?
90% for commands - it stinks.
Fixed rosters are everything to do with Balpa - or did you somehow prefer what you call 'Chaos' rostering?
Want to know about 5/3 - join the club and find out.
Sorry the no bond for airbus crews didn't affect you! I think the 150 that were affected might have a different view to yours.
HOTAC and food: It's changed, and still changing, and NO your not paying for it, and there have been many very favourable comments about the changes. We work for the majority view.
Airbus allowance package - vital for LGW AND GVA, SXF and ALL future airbus bases - get the blinkers off.
JFs Memo - agree, but he's gone from the CC now - why the problem still. It's old news.
BTBs comments - I agree. He's not involved with the incident.
You still think you are paying £1100 for food. You are way off the mark and way out of date.
How do you know the disruption payment was built into the talks? Were you there? Did you have something to do with it?
90% for commands - it stinks.
Fixed rosters are everything to do with Balpa - or did you somehow prefer what you call 'Chaos' rostering?
Want to know about 5/3 - join the club and find out.
Sorry the no bond for airbus crews didn't affect you! I think the 150 that were affected might have a different view to yours.
HOTAC and food: It's changed, and still changing, and NO your not paying for it, and there have been many very favourable comments about the changes. We work for the majority view.
Airbus allowance package - vital for LGW AND GVA, SXF and ALL future airbus bases - get the blinkers off.
JFs Memo - agree, but he's gone from the CC now - why the problem still. It's old news.
BTBs comments - I agree. He's not involved with the incident.
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Flaps,
I remind you that I posted originally as a result of BTB comments.
I disagree with you and we could tit for tat all day. And you know it.
The fact is after nearly £2000, 3 years membership I saw, nor felt any improvement in the lifestyle at easyJet, it got worse-and neither did you-because there was none.
Easy will not agree to anything while the market plays into their hands-only when the bottom line is affected will REAL changes take place. In the meantime they will play ball over smaller issues.
If MYT go to the wall-what do you think will happen to any agreement then-history will repeat itself. You have a long way to go to even meet contract T&Cs. Ring Storm and ask about Excel/Ryanair-then think of your family.
So I agree easy needs representation. So why is it so difficult, in an "airline" like easy, to recruit members?
You have an image problem and you could start to improve that by standing by the FO on JM. Member or not. They are a colleague and a professional.
Paul, I've had it with this. I do wish you good luck and hope for the sake of the excellent, hard sufferring(friends), crews you pull something out of the hat.
LF
I remind you that I posted originally as a result of BTB comments.
I disagree with you and we could tit for tat all day. And you know it.
The fact is after nearly £2000, 3 years membership I saw, nor felt any improvement in the lifestyle at easyJet, it got worse-and neither did you-because there was none.
Easy will not agree to anything while the market plays into their hands-only when the bottom line is affected will REAL changes take place. In the meantime they will play ball over smaller issues.
If MYT go to the wall-what do you think will happen to any agreement then-history will repeat itself. You have a long way to go to even meet contract T&Cs. Ring Storm and ask about Excel/Ryanair-then think of your family.
So I agree easy needs representation. So why is it so difficult, in an "airline" like easy, to recruit members?
You have an image problem and you could start to improve that by standing by the FO on JM. Member or not. They are a colleague and a professional.
Paul, I've had it with this. I do wish you good luck and hope for the sake of the excellent, hard sufferring(friends), crews you pull something out of the hat.
LF
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You have an image problem and you could start to improve that by standing by the FO on JM. Member or not. They are a colleague and a professional.
Now call me thick but what would be the point of standing by him??? It would send a green light to everyone to not join BALPA and those who are members to consider cancelling their memberships as BALPA will represent you anyway!!!
I am sometime dumbfounded by the naivety found on these boards
I feel for the FO but he made his choice. Maybe I'll cancel my car insurance, have an accident and then go and get insured for the period starting just before the accident?
Judging by piton post it would seem hopefully the Captain won't need BALPA assistance or the FO other assistance
Now call me thick but what would be the point of standing by him??? It would send a green light to everyone to not join BALPA and those who are members to consider cancelling their memberships as BALPA will represent you anyway!!!
I am sometime dumbfounded by the naivety found on these boards
I feel for the FO but he made his choice.
Maybe I'll cancel my car insurance, have an accident and then go and get insured for the period starting just before the accident?Judging by piton post it would seem hopefully the Captain won't need BALPA assistance or the FO other assistance
Last edited by Scottie; 27th Dec 2003 at 06:04.
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Just wanted to confirm that all flight deck at easyJet have Aircrew Legal Protection as part of their package and both flightdeck and cabin crew on board this flight have received full support from eJ.
Crews are not treated more or less favourably because they choose to be members of BALPA!
Crews are not treated more or less favourably because they choose to be members of BALPA!
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Now then, anyone noticed that the Flight Ops Recruitment Manager calls herself 'cruella'?
As Ed Byrne would say, 'Would you like at the irony on that'.
This lot really are heading for a big fall - and BTB, you should know better than that. Or perhaps you're about to grow your easy-manager wings and soar off into the sunset at la-la-land. Your new hotel in Nice seems to be going down like a lead balloon.
As Ed Byrne would say, 'Would you like at the irony on that'.
This lot really are heading for a big fall - and BTB, you should know better than that. Or perhaps you're about to grow your easy-manager wings and soar off into the sunset at la-la-land. Your new hotel in Nice seems to be going down like a lead balloon.
Just a numbered other
BTB Says:
Indeed, chum, but a lot less expensive than 1% of gross salary. And cover is assured regardless of BALPA's take on the incident.
Insurance is expensive., but not so much as the consequences of not having it!
Ark, if you ever need legal advice over a matter concerning your employer, would you seriously use a firm that is being paid by your employer to possibly prosecute themselves? It's called a conflict of interests.
Company legal protection schemes are only any good if you want legal backing concerning your proffessional standing as a company employee acting on behalf of the company.
I would suggest that the moment you try and turn the companies own legal team on itself, any support would be a bit thin on the ground. Every pilot needs legal cover independant of that provided by their employer.
Company legal protection schemes are only any good if you want legal backing concerning your proffessional standing as a company employee acting on behalf of the company.
I would suggest that the moment you try and turn the companies own legal team on itself, any support would be a bit thin on the ground. Every pilot needs legal cover independant of that provided by their employer.
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What a lot of responses! I will try to reply in order.
Little friend:
At no point would the F/O be responsible for a taxying accident: however; when the CAA inspect every document, log book entry etc post incident he would be in the pooh without any representation had he made the slightest of errors. The company legal protection lawyers would then represent him against the company in any disciplinary proceedures?
You think the 2 best things you have done in your life were to leave Balpa and easyJet? Whow! What a sad life you must have led! And you accuse me of talking crap!
The company were determined to bond the pilots for airbus training and only the Balpa team stopped it.
As for food and hotac: You refer to me as the "Oracle". At what point did YOU make any attempt to improve the lot or do anything else than moan and whinge? I DID and small but noticable improvements are and will take place.
Harry Again: Have you any idea who I am? If you did, you would be fully aware that I am never in any position to be a management lackey. As for the NCE hotel, the old one was arse, and I would be delighted to hear why the new one is going down like a lead balloon because the only whines I have had is that it has NO GYM!
Finally; I notice that a number of easy and ex-easy employees (LF and HA) are identifying pprune contributors on this site, which is contrary to the spirit of pprune. Please, if you are going to do so, please have the guts to identify yourselves.
Little friend:
At no point would the F/O be responsible for a taxying accident: however; when the CAA inspect every document, log book entry etc post incident he would be in the pooh without any representation had he made the slightest of errors. The company legal protection lawyers would then represent him against the company in any disciplinary proceedures?
You think the 2 best things you have done in your life were to leave Balpa and easyJet? Whow! What a sad life you must have led! And you accuse me of talking crap!
The company were determined to bond the pilots for airbus training and only the Balpa team stopped it.
As for food and hotac: You refer to me as the "Oracle". At what point did YOU make any attempt to improve the lot or do anything else than moan and whinge? I DID and small but noticable improvements are and will take place.
Harry Again: Have you any idea who I am? If you did, you would be fully aware that I am never in any position to be a management lackey. As for the NCE hotel, the old one was arse, and I would be delighted to hear why the new one is going down like a lead balloon because the only whines I have had is that it has NO GYM!
Finally; I notice that a number of easy and ex-easy employees (LF and HA) are identifying pprune contributors on this site, which is contrary to the spirit of pprune. Please, if you are going to do so, please have the guts to identify yourselves.