Lufthansa
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Lufthansa
Hi,
I just wondered if you could help with a quick question. I am looking to move to Germany in a few years, but I havn't started learning the language yet (start next week) so I can't read Lufthansa's website!
Does anyone know what the minimum requirements are? (Obviously fluent German). If I completed a JAA CPL/MECR, IR and ATPL theories, are they valid to fly for commercial gain in Germany? I mean, the point of JAA is so that I can work for commercial gain in any European country, (based on visa issues/work permits etc) right?
thanks guys.
I just wondered if you could help with a quick question. I am looking to move to Germany in a few years, but I havn't started learning the language yet (start next week) so I can't read Lufthansa's website!
Does anyone know what the minimum requirements are? (Obviously fluent German). If I completed a JAA CPL/MECR, IR and ATPL theories, are they valid to fly for commercial gain in Germany? I mean, the point of JAA is so that I can work for commercial gain in any European country, (based on visa issues/work permits etc) right?
thanks guys.
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Of course they continue training ab-initios, whether they need pilots or not - they are a business. There is no guarantee of a job with them at the end of your course, they pick and choose according to their requirements.
As for direct entries, here we go:
For Lufthansa Pax and Condor:
- age not older than 32 years and 6 months
- 600 hrs commercial 2-crew experience
- german ATPL with long range theory /or JAR licence
- unrestricted class1 medical
- german and englisch language, both spoken and written
For Lufthansa-Cargo:
- Minimum 1.000 h experience on Jet-Aircraft
- plus all the above
To get employment, you also have to pass the DLR aptitude tests.
des
As for direct entries, here we go:
For Lufthansa Pax and Condor:
- age not older than 32 years and 6 months
- 600 hrs commercial 2-crew experience
- german ATPL with long range theory /or JAR licence
- unrestricted class1 medical
- german and englisch language, both spoken and written
For Lufthansa-Cargo:
- Minimum 1.000 h experience on Jet-Aircraft
- plus all the above
To get employment, you also have to pass the DLR aptitude tests.
des
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Ok thank you for the help.
So, to get into Lufthansa you have to apply to them, they pay for the training, once in you pay back a small percentage of the training costs. In other words, its a sponsorship, a similar course to what BA ran.
Studi, may I ask for one more favour? I don't speak German yet, I start learning next week, could you tell me what the requirments are on the homepage?
BTW I am planning on moving after completing my degree in four years, I am 18. From what I understand from your posts, if I were to pay for my training, I would still never get into LH because they only employ the sponsored students.
Thanks for you help.
Good Day.
So, to get into Lufthansa you have to apply to them, they pay for the training, once in you pay back a small percentage of the training costs. In other words, its a sponsorship, a similar course to what BA ran.
Studi, may I ask for one more favour? I don't speak German yet, I start learning next week, could you tell me what the requirments are on the homepage?
BTW I am planning on moving after completing my degree in four years, I am 18. From what I understand from your posts, if I were to pay for my training, I would still never get into LH because they only employ the sponsored students.
Thanks for you help.
Good Day.
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Hi,
as desafinado stated there is the posibility of entering as a ready entry. You won't need to be a german native speaking. This year quite a few swiss entered LH Cargo. Despite LH having ab initios ready in the pipeline. Before quite a few spanish driver entered LH cockpit. And I guess nationality is far less an arguement in hiring in germany. Only since May 1st 2003 are german pilots able to receive JAR-FCL licences and enter the JAA market.
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Pittspilot
as desafinado stated there is the posibility of entering as a ready entry. You won't need to be a german native speaking. This year quite a few swiss entered LH Cargo. Despite LH having ab initios ready in the pipeline. Before quite a few spanish driver entered LH cockpit. And I guess nationality is far less an arguement in hiring in germany. Only since May 1st 2003 are german pilots able to receive JAR-FCL licences and enter the JAA market.
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studi
7 % pass rate of DLR test is something out of this world, either majority candidates are all dumb or DLR is not relevent. What is the philosophy behind this low pass rate of DLR? is LH really interested in looking for normal professional pilots who flies aeroplane competently or are they looking for top guns from exluftwafe. Lets say that world economy booms in 2004 and rest of the airlines are expanding, will LH still stick to their DLR test with 7% pass rate to meet their expansion rate?
Some of the leading airlines Emirates,Singapore airlines and Cathay all hires multinationals,multi cultural,multi language high caliber pilots and many other airlines around the world are on same path. Non of the above companies use DLR method of screening, however end result is not less than LH if not better.
Airline business involves international inviroments, therefore makes sense to have multi cultural employees. If an old tredition is unproductive then do away with, be flexible in changing inviroment. Time will only tell what is best, just watch.
By the way this message is for LH officials.
7 % pass rate of DLR test is something out of this world, either majority candidates are all dumb or DLR is not relevent. What is the philosophy behind this low pass rate of DLR? is LH really interested in looking for normal professional pilots who flies aeroplane competently or are they looking for top guns from exluftwafe. Lets say that world economy booms in 2004 and rest of the airlines are expanding, will LH still stick to their DLR test with 7% pass rate to meet their expansion rate?
Some of the leading airlines Emirates,Singapore airlines and Cathay all hires multinationals,multi cultural,multi language high caliber pilots and many other airlines around the world are on same path. Non of the above companies use DLR method of screening, however end result is not less than LH if not better.
Airline business involves international inviroments, therefore makes sense to have multi cultural employees. If an old tredition is unproductive then do away with, be flexible in changing inviroment. Time will only tell what is best, just watch.
By the way this message is for LH officials.
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Middlepath, studi was refering to the sponsor scheme.
BA is the same deal, hundereds of applicants applying for few jobs. They took the best out of the applicants. If one hundered people apply for seven positions, then only seven are going to be hired, thus a 7% pass rate. LH are not looking for 100% perfect examples of pure excellence, but they simply take the people who fit there requirements the best for a small number of jobs. As the number of these applicants is so huge, then only 7% of them get through. Its the numbers of applicants that push the pecentage down. Same case for BA.
jau
BA is the same deal, hundereds of applicants applying for few jobs. They took the best out of the applicants. If one hundered people apply for seven positions, then only seven are going to be hired, thus a 7% pass rate. LH are not looking for 100% perfect examples of pure excellence, but they simply take the people who fit there requirements the best for a small number of jobs. As the number of these applicants is so huge, then only 7% of them get through. Its the numbers of applicants that push the pecentage down. Same case for BA.
jau
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Of course not. Neither are there any pilots in Europe less qualified than LH. Read my post again.
Only a handfull of airlines actually pay for cadets training. The majority of pilots need to pay for their training themselves. When a company offers to pay for your training then everyone will naturally apply. Thats a lot of people. As a result only a very small minority are picked. If seven people applied for seven openings at LH, and they all met the legal requirements for becoming a pilot, then the pass rate would be 100% wouldn't it? Hundereds of people apply for this scheme and there are only limited places, so LH can only accept a very small percent, 7, in actual fact!
Its the same deal with CTC Mc Alpine. The pass rate is very small. No there no more qualified than anyother pilot either.
Only a handfull of airlines actually pay for cadets training. The majority of pilots need to pay for their training themselves. When a company offers to pay for your training then everyone will naturally apply. Thats a lot of people. As a result only a very small minority are picked. If seven people applied for seven openings at LH, and they all met the legal requirements for becoming a pilot, then the pass rate would be 100% wouldn't it? Hundereds of people apply for this scheme and there are only limited places, so LH can only accept a very small percent, 7, in actual fact!
Its the same deal with CTC Mc Alpine. The pass rate is very small. No there no more qualified than anyother pilot either.
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Most people will tell you that you stand no chance to pass it, unless you shell out a couple of thousand Euros to specialized companies in order to prepare you for the DLR. Sounds like a bit of a rip off to me. What they really test is the size of your wallet.
Perhaps its a nice toy to see how fast someone can to a stupid tests, but does this have anything to do with flying? Letīs face it, flying is no longer rocket science, itīs monkey see, monkey do and sticking to an OM...!
Perhaps its a nice toy to see how fast someone can to a stupid tests, but does this have anything to do with flying? Letīs face it, flying is no longer rocket science, itīs monkey see, monkey do and sticking to an OM...!
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LH
At the present time forget it - you'll be wasting time and money....
As a non-German speaker, you don't stand a chance. The first hurdle that you will need to clear is getting past the LBA (Licencing Authority), who don't seem to know much about JAR - if you can get hold of them. It seems there is one individual employed in licencing who works one day a week, at least that was the situation about 6months ago.
The second hurdle is DLR, who carry out the assessment and selection procedures. I strongly suggest you check out the web site at www.hh.dlr.de if only for a good laugh - these online tests are easier than the tests you will do on the selection procedure. This company is run by phsychologists so the phsychometric tests and assessment exercises are intensely involved - the future intention is to monitor physiological parameters during the sim exercise, presumably to assess how candidates react during periods of stress! The only time a candidate meets a "real" pilot is during the final interview, if you're one of the lucky 7% to pass the phsych tests.
You've obviously got a long time to go before you start your aviation training so the situation in Europe (and Germany) may change in a few years. But if you do pursue a flying career in DE, I wish you luck!!
As a non-German speaker, you don't stand a chance. The first hurdle that you will need to clear is getting past the LBA (Licencing Authority), who don't seem to know much about JAR - if you can get hold of them. It seems there is one individual employed in licencing who works one day a week, at least that was the situation about 6months ago.
The second hurdle is DLR, who carry out the assessment and selection procedures. I strongly suggest you check out the web site at www.hh.dlr.de if only for a good laugh - these online tests are easier than the tests you will do on the selection procedure. This company is run by phsychologists so the phsychometric tests and assessment exercises are intensely involved - the future intention is to monitor physiological parameters during the sim exercise, presumably to assess how candidates react during periods of stress! The only time a candidate meets a "real" pilot is during the final interview, if you're one of the lucky 7% to pass the phsych tests.
You've obviously got a long time to go before you start your aviation training so the situation in Europe (and Germany) may change in a few years. But if you do pursue a flying career in DE, I wish you luck!!
All correct, what youīve been told by the DLH folks here.
Very, very slim chances of getting into the RHS in DLH right now, thoug the JAR licence bit isnīt a problem.
Just too many folks from the DLH flight school waiting to get in.
And thereīs a contract about getting all of them in before (!!) taking on any direct-entry FOs.
@ V: "Letīs face it, flying is no longer rocket science, itīs monkey see, monkey do and sticking to an OM...!"
Whoever said, flying was rocket science? It never was.
Seems, you need to do some serious soul-searching, before you stand a chance of getting into any "big" airline (if thatīs what you want).
BA, LH, CX, EK etc. etc. all have similar entry tests.
They donīt need or even want monkeys.
They need professionals that can not only fly an airplane but are also able to grasp the concept of themselves being part of the complex system of an airline as a business.
Very, very slim chances of getting into the RHS in DLH right now, thoug the JAR licence bit isnīt a problem.
Just too many folks from the DLH flight school waiting to get in.
And thereīs a contract about getting all of them in before (!!) taking on any direct-entry FOs.
@ V: "Letīs face it, flying is no longer rocket science, itīs monkey see, monkey do and sticking to an OM...!"
Whoever said, flying was rocket science? It never was.
Seems, you need to do some serious soul-searching, before you stand a chance of getting into any "big" airline (if thatīs what you want).
BA, LH, CX, EK etc. etc. all have similar entry tests.
They donīt need or even want monkeys.
They need professionals that can not only fly an airplane but are also able to grasp the concept of themselves being part of the complex system of an airline as a business.
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Hi studi
You are the most knowledgeble pilot, you seem to have an answer to every reader. when you say 80% of exswiss air pass DLR test, you mean not the excrossair pilot right? you mean the swiss air which went bust. If swiss air pilots were so good then what went wrong with rest of the 20%? was the screening process @ swiss air failed to detect 20%? I was told by one of LH chap that exswiss air pilots of A320 are accepted at LH due to the fact that swiss Germans behaved and performed just like Germans in Germany.Something to do with compatibility and of course the short of A320 pilot at LH.
You are the most knowledgeble pilot, you seem to have an answer to every reader. when you say 80% of exswiss air pass DLR test, you mean not the excrossair pilot right? you mean the swiss air which went bust. If swiss air pilots were so good then what went wrong with rest of the 20%? was the screening process @ swiss air failed to detect 20%? I was told by one of LH chap that exswiss air pilots of A320 are accepted at LH due to the fact that swiss Germans behaved and performed just like Germans in Germany.Something to do with compatibility and of course the short of A320 pilot at LH.
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Studi,
The whole format of LH/DLR and the subsequent training/bonding seems to have changed somewhat over the last years, so I do apologise about the (now incorrect) information I supplied.
I did the DLR test in the very early 90s - everything during those days was paid for, flight, hotel etc. Although I passed that first stage, no second interviews or training courses took place any more for a long time due to LHs re-structuring. When they started up again, I received a letter from LH inviting me back again: I would have to do the DLR again due to a new format of the aptitude testing (although they don't get tired of the fact that you're only allowed to do them once...); the tests cost DM800,- to be paid by the applicant, no free flights/hotel any more. The subsequent training costs had to be picked up by the applicant as well. I can't remember how much it was, around DM80.000,- if memory serves, a loan in your name kindly arranged by LH. And no guarantee of a job at the end of it. There were probably not too many prospects who would have gone for that, a good thing they changed it to the system you described. I myself had to decline the offer as I already had my UK CPL by that time.
All those big airlines (and they somehow all give the impression that their pilots are the best of the best...) are having similar aptitude tests, it is just a method to get down to a managable size of 'prospects'. There does seem to be a contradiction though, so much as that you can prepare yourself in seminars for the DLR (even with a "pass-guarantee"!), yet it is claimed to be a valid indication as to whether you are/will be a good pilot or not.
Another strange thing (in the case of LH) is their change in entry requirements depending on recruitment demand. In lean times, your eyesight as a LH pilot has to be much better than when there is a shortage - a strange concept I find. The age limit seems to be a more reasonable method, although a cruel one for me personally - too old a fart at 34 as a direct entry...
The whole format of LH/DLR and the subsequent training/bonding seems to have changed somewhat over the last years, so I do apologise about the (now incorrect) information I supplied.
I did the DLR test in the very early 90s - everything during those days was paid for, flight, hotel etc. Although I passed that first stage, no second interviews or training courses took place any more for a long time due to LHs re-structuring. When they started up again, I received a letter from LH inviting me back again: I would have to do the DLR again due to a new format of the aptitude testing (although they don't get tired of the fact that you're only allowed to do them once...); the tests cost DM800,- to be paid by the applicant, no free flights/hotel any more. The subsequent training costs had to be picked up by the applicant as well. I can't remember how much it was, around DM80.000,- if memory serves, a loan in your name kindly arranged by LH. And no guarantee of a job at the end of it. There were probably not too many prospects who would have gone for that, a good thing they changed it to the system you described. I myself had to decline the offer as I already had my UK CPL by that time.
All those big airlines (and they somehow all give the impression that their pilots are the best of the best...) are having similar aptitude tests, it is just a method to get down to a managable size of 'prospects'. There does seem to be a contradiction though, so much as that you can prepare yourself in seminars for the DLR (even with a "pass-guarantee"!), yet it is claimed to be a valid indication as to whether you are/will be a good pilot or not.
Another strange thing (in the case of LH) is their change in entry requirements depending on recruitment demand. In lean times, your eyesight as a LH pilot has to be much better than when there is a shortage - a strange concept I find. The age limit seems to be a more reasonable method, although a cruel one for me personally - too old a fart at 34 as a direct entry...
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Hi again!
Just thought of a good point, how many times are you allowed to apply for the DLH scheme? Is it just the once or can you keep on applying until your 27?
(ps: whats airlines EK?)
Cheers,
jau
Just thought of a good point, how many times are you allowed to apply for the DLH scheme? Is it just the once or can you keep on applying until your 27?
(ps: whats airlines EK?)
Cheers,
jau
One application for the ab-initio programm.
and
One application for the ready-entry FO (direct-entry) programm.
Certain age limits do/may(!) apply.
Check the website (http://www.lufthansapilot.de/) for details.
(If youīre unable to read it, forget the whole idea...)
EK=Emirates...
and
One application for the ready-entry FO (direct-entry) programm.
Certain age limits do/may(!) apply.
Check the website (http://www.lufthansapilot.de/) for details.
(If youīre unable to read it, forget the whole idea...)
EK=Emirates...
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Who says nepotism does not exist at LH?
Speaking from personal experience, it is a great job. The pay is good. The stewardesses are great (married and divorced twice). The two years in Bremen and Arizona was great. I flew the 737 and now the 744. No complaints at all.
Speaking from personal experience, it is a great job. The pay is good. The stewardesses are great (married and divorced twice). The two years in Bremen and Arizona was great. I flew the 737 and now the 744. No complaints at all.
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Condor or Lufthansa Cargo
Why would an ab initio choose to fly for Condor or LH Cargo if given the choice (including mainline LH)? Are placements within the Lufthansa umbrella determined by seniority or performance in the ab initio process?
Let's say you are a successful ab initio and you choose to fly for Condor. Could you leave for Lufthansa mainline a few years later or are you now a Condor pilot for life? That would not be a problem in my book!
Cheers
Let's say you are a successful ab initio and you choose to fly for Condor. Could you leave for Lufthansa mainline a few years later or are you now a Condor pilot for life? That would not be a problem in my book!
Cheers
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Studi,
Thank you for the thorough response. Personally, if I had the opportunity, I'd fly for Condor first to enjoy the holiday flying and then I'd go to mainline to fly the A330/40 when a Captain slot opened up (probably take a long time...).
Do you have any idea which path you would take if you had any option above (no hiring freezes)?
Vielen Dank!
Thank you for the thorough response. Personally, if I had the opportunity, I'd fly for Condor first to enjoy the holiday flying and then I'd go to mainline to fly the A330/40 when a Captain slot opened up (probably take a long time...).
Do you have any idea which path you would take if you had any option above (no hiring freezes)?
Vielen Dank!
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Lufthansa Cityline?
Studi,
Forgot in my last post to you. What about Lufthansa Cityline? Does it also take ab initios from your school or does it have a separate process (and different qualifications)? Are Cityline pilots eligible for integration into Lufthansa as well?
Forgot in my last post to you. What about Lufthansa Cityline? Does it also take ab initios from your school or does it have a separate process (and different qualifications)? Are Cityline pilots eligible for integration into Lufthansa as well?