easyJet shift pattern
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Will never happen (IMHO) and is just a management ploy to try and keep the pilots sweet for a bit longer in the hope that something will change in the industry and all the crisis about crew numbers will go away.
Whenever one has suggested that Ryans are better than us becos they have 5 and 3, have been told by easymanagement that this is becos Ryan isn't really 5 and 3 becos there days off rules are different and not CAP371 days off. So now our mangement with the colusion of the BALPA PC have decided to change the days off rules and call it 5 and 3. Its a sham!
Other obvious reality which no one involved in this fiasco wants to recognise is that when you are already doing 6 and 3 (really 7 and 2 and then 6 and 3) and you are once again buying back leave in the summer at ludicrously high daily rates, you are absolutely irresponsible to suggest that you are looking at changing to 5 and 3. If you had the capacity to do it, why would you be buying back leave on 6 and 3?
Whenever one has suggested that Ryans are better than us becos they have 5 and 3, have been told by easymanagement that this is becos Ryan isn't really 5 and 3 becos there days off rules are different and not CAP371 days off. So now our mangement with the colusion of the BALPA PC have decided to change the days off rules and call it 5 and 3. Its a sham!
Other obvious reality which no one involved in this fiasco wants to recognise is that when you are already doing 6 and 3 (really 7 and 2 and then 6 and 3) and you are once again buying back leave in the summer at ludicrously high daily rates, you are absolutely irresponsible to suggest that you are looking at changing to 5 and 3. If you had the capacity to do it, why would you be buying back leave on 6 and 3?
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So now our mangement with the colusion of the BALPA PC have decided to change the days off rules and call it 5 and 3. Its a sham!
The days off rules have not changed, are not changing and there has been no discussion with the Company Council about changing them.
The FACT is, wef Dec this year, the EU working time directive becomes law for the first time for 'mobile air workers' = pilots and cabin crew.
ergo max working hours of 2000 per year as opposed to CAP371 of circa 2400. Something therefore has to give.
This fits, reasonably well, into a 5/3 working pattern and this is being examined IN DEPTH.
NO rules have changed or will change in the very near future.
The Ryan system is different because they do not fly the aircraft 24 hours a day. EZ do.
Therefore what the Ryans can do with 2 crews per aircraft per day, EZ can't.
Buying back of leave had absolutely naff all to do with the roster PATTERN at all. It was a pre-existing shortage of crews compounded by a screw up in the leave allocation for those that were there already, leaving something like 11 days in August needing extra cover.
It wouldn't have mattered what roster pattern was in operation - the same problem would have occurred.
cosmijewel
Why on earth don't you find out the facts before posting anything?
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Flaps - you mean well but wake up - read your posts - you sound like a candidate for a management job.
I've been told that members of the PC have discussed with management early starts after days off and this would be a change of the days off rules - currently 0600 earliest reporting but will change if this goes through becos thats what RW and the rest want
Ryan do 5 and 3 with out flying through the nite - yes so how are we going to do 5 and 3 and fly through the night?? Increase the crew number - oh yeh. I just see RW and the other bandits going for that
listen to yourself man - 'a pre existing shortage of crew' blah bl**dy blah -could have been the new CP talking. If it was pre -existing why wasn't anything done about it?? Why was the leave buy back at £1000 per day brought in at very short notice?? It was a bl**dy b*lls up as happens every summer and will do so again becos we don't have the resource to fly the high utilisation programme with the current roster patern and there is no hope of doing so with the one that gives us even more days off.
Quote 'it wouldn't matter what roster pattern was in force this would happen anyway' Too right with the plonkers running rostering it would - and next year when the PC have negotiated away the CAP371 rules, do you think RW will authorise buying back leave at £1000 per day again or will he think - hey lets abandon the 5 and 3 for the summer. usual b*llsh*t - a preexistig shortage - unusal market - a positon in the market - maintain our competive edge' Just wait for it to happen. Who do you trust!
And before you leap to the defence of the PC again, please just confirm the rumour that the chairman of the PC resigned becos he is going for senior managment job. What a mess.
I've been told that members of the PC have discussed with management early starts after days off and this would be a change of the days off rules - currently 0600 earliest reporting but will change if this goes through becos thats what RW and the rest want
Ryan do 5 and 3 with out flying through the nite - yes so how are we going to do 5 and 3 and fly through the night?? Increase the crew number - oh yeh. I just see RW and the other bandits going for that
listen to yourself man - 'a pre existing shortage of crew' blah bl**dy blah -could have been the new CP talking. If it was pre -existing why wasn't anything done about it?? Why was the leave buy back at £1000 per day brought in at very short notice?? It was a bl**dy b*lls up as happens every summer and will do so again becos we don't have the resource to fly the high utilisation programme with the current roster patern and there is no hope of doing so with the one that gives us even more days off.
Quote 'it wouldn't matter what roster pattern was in force this would happen anyway' Too right with the plonkers running rostering it would - and next year when the PC have negotiated away the CAP371 rules, do you think RW will authorise buying back leave at £1000 per day again or will he think - hey lets abandon the 5 and 3 for the summer. usual b*llsh*t - a preexistig shortage - unusal market - a positon in the market - maintain our competive edge' Just wait for it to happen. Who do you trust!
And before you leap to the defence of the PC again, please just confirm the rumour that the chairman of the PC resigned becos he is going for senior managment job. What a mess.
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I've been told that members of the PC have discussed with management early starts after days off and this would be a change of the days off rules
Ryan do 5 and 3 with out flying through the nite - yes so how are we going to do 5 and 3 and fly through the night??
If it was pre -existing why wasn't anything done about it??
One major point you seem to forget - RW, or anyone else, cannot just change these things anymore without agreement from the members of the recognised union - BALPA.
All such agreements are, and will be, voted on by ALL the members. ONLY when there is a majority can a change take place.
So forget the talk of PC members 'in collusion' with anyone - unless you're referring to a majority of nearly 500 pilots 'in collusion'.
In June, after the council elections, the Chairman stated that he would stay for 2 more meetings to 'see in' the new council. It's on record and in the minutes. 2 meetings later he did what he said he would do, and stood down.
As reported widely on other threads, he is one of the guys currently taking legal action against the company for share issues.
Draw your own conclusions!
If you want facts and not crewroom hearsay, join Balpa, get access to OUR bulletin board and have your say and read the minutes of meetings and replies to all the questions.
If you want to continue to pontificate, whilst in possession of 5% of the facts, carry on as you are!!
Cosmijewel please stop your uninformed moaning. If you want to know the facts join BALPA, and stop being a free loader.
If you don't want to join fine, but all BALPA members will be voting on what ever roster pattern/ pay review is put to us next year on your behalf and you won't be able to do a thing about it.
If you don't want to join fine, but all BALPA members will be voting on what ever roster pattern/ pay review is put to us next year on your behalf and you won't be able to do a thing about it.
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Why is it that anyone with a different view to that held in the orange corridors is labelled as 'moaning'?
To help with credibility Flaps please answer one simple question with a simple 'spin free' answer.
Did the initiative to change the FTL start with the PC or with the management. Did the PC go to JP and say, we'd like to change the FTL so that we can have more days off, or did the management say lets look at changing the FTL and we'll give yo more days off if you do this for us.
Whose initiative is it?
To help with credibility Flaps please answer one simple question with a simple 'spin free' answer.
Did the initiative to change the FTL start with the PC or with the management. Did the PC go to JP and say, we'd like to change the FTL so that we can have more days off, or did the management say lets look at changing the FTL and we'll give yo more days off if you do this for us.
Whose initiative is it?
Last edited by cosmijewel; 30th Oct 2003 at 16:02.
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Orange corridors?!?!?!?!?!
None of the views here come form there.
Last year, during the Ts and Cs negotiations, the Council was pushing hard for fixed roster patterns. 5 and 3 was the target.
This met a brick wall at every turn.
Eventually a comprimise of 6/3 was reached, with many - well known - pitfalls, but heaps better than the previously existing random rostering whereby days off were unknown until the roster was produced, often as late as the last week of the preceeding month.
It was suggested, I believe by management (but I was not there at the time so don't quote me!) that perhaps examining possible changes to FTLs might allow a 5/3 pattern to be discussed more meaningfully.
The (then) PC agreed to DISCUSS this further. A statement to that effect was written into the Agreement of last January - distributed to ALL pilots in the company.
So here we are, 9 months later, discussing it. There have been no deals, promises or concessions from either side. The CAA are also,by necessity, involved.
There is no guarantee that any acceptable proposal will emerge at all. So, nothing lost except some time and effort.
IF, I say again, IF the Council hear any proposal that they believe might be advantageous and workable, AND it is acceptable to the CAA, the proposal WILL be put to the vote for approval OR rejection.
The voters will be the full members of BALPA employed by easyjet at the time. No-one else.
If the proposal is rejected by majority - it's toast! It cannot be enforced under any circumstance whatsoever. Nothing lost.
If accepted, it can be ditched after 6 months, by vote, if found to be not working or abused. No question. Nothing lost.
I really cannot see what the big deal is here. Does it really matter who started the discussion in the first place? There's nothing wrong at all in discussing something. If we stop talking we may all end up as toast.
This way the company have to meet with us and talk. Without representation they will just do as they like.
Ask yourself some questions:
If Balpa had not been involved in last year's talks - what do you HONESTLY think the Harmonisation of Terms and Conditions document (if there would have been one at all!) would have looked like?
Do you want to try to improve you rosters?
Are you happy with your company pension arrangements?
Are you happy with your current lifestyle/work balance?
Can you, as an individual, do a damned thing about any of the above?
Why not join Balpa. Stick your hand in your pocket. Air your views on our Balpa BB - using real names as we all do there - and argue your case and hear other views on a daily basis.
If your arguments are convincing enough, you will win over people and then the Council turns to fight your cause(s) if they represent a majority view. We only argue the majority view - not those views we personally hold.
It really is that simple.
None of the views here come form there.
Last year, during the Ts and Cs negotiations, the Council was pushing hard for fixed roster patterns. 5 and 3 was the target.
This met a brick wall at every turn.
Eventually a comprimise of 6/3 was reached, with many - well known - pitfalls, but heaps better than the previously existing random rostering whereby days off were unknown until the roster was produced, often as late as the last week of the preceeding month.
It was suggested, I believe by management (but I was not there at the time so don't quote me!) that perhaps examining possible changes to FTLs might allow a 5/3 pattern to be discussed more meaningfully.
The (then) PC agreed to DISCUSS this further. A statement to that effect was written into the Agreement of last January - distributed to ALL pilots in the company.
So here we are, 9 months later, discussing it. There have been no deals, promises or concessions from either side. The CAA are also,by necessity, involved.
There is no guarantee that any acceptable proposal will emerge at all. So, nothing lost except some time and effort.
IF, I say again, IF the Council hear any proposal that they believe might be advantageous and workable, AND it is acceptable to the CAA, the proposal WILL be put to the vote for approval OR rejection.
The voters will be the full members of BALPA employed by easyjet at the time. No-one else.
If the proposal is rejected by majority - it's toast! It cannot be enforced under any circumstance whatsoever. Nothing lost.
If accepted, it can be ditched after 6 months, by vote, if found to be not working or abused. No question. Nothing lost.
I really cannot see what the big deal is here. Does it really matter who started the discussion in the first place? There's nothing wrong at all in discussing something. If we stop talking we may all end up as toast.
This way the company have to meet with us and talk. Without representation they will just do as they like.
Ask yourself some questions:
If Balpa had not been involved in last year's talks - what do you HONESTLY think the Harmonisation of Terms and Conditions document (if there would have been one at all!) would have looked like?
Do you want to try to improve you rosters?
Are you happy with your company pension arrangements?
Are you happy with your current lifestyle/work balance?
Can you, as an individual, do a damned thing about any of the above?
Why not join Balpa. Stick your hand in your pocket. Air your views on our Balpa BB - using real names as we all do there - and argue your case and hear other views on a daily basis.
If your arguments are convincing enough, you will win over people and then the Council turns to fight your cause(s) if they represent a majority view. We only argue the majority view - not those views we personally hold.
It really is that simple.
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Flaps One,
Proof is in the pudding.
If previous talks with the company are like last time.
You will be talking for 18 months to get any results whatsoever.
Balpa members were sold down the river last time.
Why should we pay for food?
Why wasnt rostering sorted .No excuses please its like an old HMV record played at 33.3!
Why wasnt real staff travel implimented?
What about increased pension contribution by the company?
What about a Phi scheme?
What about an annual share scheme similar to Ryan .
Or alternatively a profit scheme similar to Singapore?
I know your intention is good , but prove it!
Ps Why is the ex Chairman of the Pc trying to get a management job and sue the company.Its laughable!
Ps2, Please dont respond saying .
Oh yes but we need more Balpa members etc .Its wearing a bit thin!
Proof is in the pudding.
If previous talks with the company are like last time.
You will be talking for 18 months to get any results whatsoever.
Balpa members were sold down the river last time.
Why should we pay for food?
Why wasnt rostering sorted .No excuses please its like an old HMV record played at 33.3!
Why wasnt real staff travel implimented?
What about increased pension contribution by the company?
What about a Phi scheme?
What about an annual share scheme similar to Ryan .
Or alternatively a profit scheme similar to Singapore?
I know your intention is good , but prove it!
Ps Why is the ex Chairman of the Pc trying to get a management job and sue the company.Its laughable!
Ps2, Please dont respond saying .
Oh yes but we need more Balpa members etc .Its wearing a bit thin!
Last edited by mjenkinsblackdog; 31st Oct 2003 at 15:46.
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mjenkinsblackdog
????.....the previous talks are the last ones!
I guess you mean if the current talks are like the last ones.
Every pilot would like everything we want, TODAY...or preferably YESTERDAY. It isn't going to happen like that - anywhere.
So each year, little by little, you move towards your goal. Therefore many of the same topics will come up for re-examination each year.
You know what was on offer before Balpa got involved. Are you saying you would have been happy with that?
We shouldn't.
Improvements were tried. Some worked, some failed. Other improvements are being brougt in. They might work. If nothing is tried - nothing will change. Which would you rather?
If you have the answer to the problems, please let everyone know what it is and I'm sure it will be implemented straight away!
Because the CEO didn't want it! We can't enforce it, much as we would like to. It will be discussed again. Maybe there will be movement. If we don't talk about it - nothing will ever change.
+PHI and shares
All on the table this year. If you were in Balpa, you would already know that!!!
Thank you. If you let me try, I will!
Ask him, not me.
Can you deny that a higher membership would strengthen our hand and help towards getting many of the things on your list?
How many, of the above list you quoted, are YOU in a position to TRY and do something about - NONE!
When is YOUR next meeting with the management to discuss your issues of concern?
Will you publish the minutes and results of your meetings?
I am calling a halt to my contribution to this thread, but don't accuse me of sidestepping the questions.
I will happily carry on discussing any of these matters on the company forum, as issues are becoming very specific and individuals are being brought into the debate.
If previous talks with the company are like last time.
I guess you mean if the current talks are like the last ones.
Every pilot would like everything we want, TODAY...or preferably YESTERDAY. It isn't going to happen like that - anywhere.
So each year, little by little, you move towards your goal. Therefore many of the same topics will come up for re-examination each year.
Balpa members were sold down the river last time.
Why should we pay for food?
Why wasnt rostering sorted .No excuses please its like an old HMV record played at 33.3!
If you have the answer to the problems, please let everyone know what it is and I'm sure it will be implemented straight away!
Why wasnt real staff travel implimented?
What about increased pension contribution by the company?
All on the table this year. If you were in Balpa, you would already know that!!!
I know your intention is good , but prove it!
Why is the ex Chairman of the Pc trying to get a management job and sue the company.Its laughable!
Oh yes but we need more Balpa members etc .Its wearing a bit thin
How many, of the above list you quoted, are YOU in a position to TRY and do something about - NONE!
When is YOUR next meeting with the management to discuss your issues of concern?
Will you publish the minutes and results of your meetings?
I am calling a halt to my contribution to this thread, but don't accuse me of sidestepping the questions.
I will happily carry on discussing any of these matters on the company forum, as issues are becoming very specific and individuals are being brought into the debate.
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Exhausted already!
Ill provide a medical assistance for future fun and games!
You wont last long with Jp extra , better arrange a sub !
As for slowly slowly techiques.
I think you will find HARD ball more effective.
Look at Ryanair pilot talks 3 years back!
Even MOL realised you need pilots to run an airline.
Therefore proper rostering and a 5 year plan was made, including bonuses and shares etc!
Finally just because the a CEO of easyjet DOESNT like something.
That has little to do with what we want does it!
Think about It!
Ill provide a medical assistance for future fun and games!
You wont last long with Jp extra , better arrange a sub !
As for slowly slowly techiques.
I think you will find HARD ball more effective.
Look at Ryanair pilot talks 3 years back!
Even MOL realised you need pilots to run an airline.
Therefore proper rostering and a 5 year plan was made, including bonuses and shares etc!
Finally just because the a CEO of easyjet DOESNT like something.
That has little to do with what we want does it!
Think about It!
Last edited by PPRuNe Towers; 1st Nov 2003 at 06:19.
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Not exhausted at all - why do you think that?
It really is about the difference between going in with demands that you either can or cannot back up with action of some sort.
Some you can back up, some you cannot - it all boils down to having the wisdom to know the difference.
If England put 15 (or 16?) men on the pitch against Uruguay in this weekend's match - they should crush them.
If they only field a team of 8 - they will be crushed.
Think hard about demands, with only just over half the team playing?
Whilst I'm well aware that many people here know exactly who I am, it's not really right to broadcast it, is it?
Still, if it gave you a thrill....................
It really is about the difference between going in with demands that you either can or cannot back up with action of some sort.
Some you can back up, some you cannot - it all boils down to having the wisdom to know the difference.
If England put 15 (or 16?) men on the pitch against Uruguay in this weekend's match - they should crush them.
If they only field a team of 8 - they will be crushed.
Think hard about demands, with only just over half the team playing?
Whilst I'm well aware that many people here know exactly who I am, it's not really right to broadcast it, is it?
Still, if it gave you a thrill....................
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Pm
Dont become Pre Menstrual.
Proof is in the eating.
We have all heard endless ads Join Balpa ,join BALPA.
I personally think the T and G is far more professional than the British airways golf club.
Sadly its hard cold results most people are interested in at the end of the day.
As I said before I hope you CAN deliver!
We shall see!
Dont become Pre Menstrual.
Proof is in the eating.
We have all heard endless ads Join Balpa ,join BALPA.
I personally think the T and G is far more professional than the British airways golf club.
Sadly its hard cold results most people are interested in at the end of the day.
As I said before I hope you CAN deliver!
We shall see!
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Can you please outline exactly what deals the T&G got for any airlines in living memory?
Have a look at what deal the 'BA Golf Club' got for Virgin (membership over 90%).
Can you please also list what you have personally done to even try and improve your working conditions since you started with this airline? What were the results of your labours?
So you want hard, cold results but you are not prepared to lift a damned finger!
Why am I not surprised?
Without doubt......my last comment on this thread.
Have a look at what deal the 'BA Golf Club' got for Virgin (membership over 90%).
Can you please also list what you have personally done to even try and improve your working conditions since you started with this airline? What were the results of your labours?
So you want hard, cold results but you are not prepared to lift a damned finger!
Why am I not surprised?
Without doubt......my last comment on this thread.
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The T and G helped several pilots within easyjet before you joined with several disputes.
Happily these were resolved .One went on for months!
I am not interested in Bransons woolly jumpers only what goes on in easyjet.
I was a member of Balpa up until the ballsup last time which should have solved rostering.
As for yourself !
You have to prove your worth .You wanted to be in the firing line.
So show us your worth!
So far you havent acheived anything,but ill wait and see.
Happily these were resolved .One went on for months!
I am not interested in Bransons woolly jumpers only what goes on in easyjet.
I was a member of Balpa up until the ballsup last time which should have solved rostering.
As for yourself !
You have to prove your worth .You wanted to be in the firing line.
So show us your worth!
So far you havent acheived anything,but ill wait and see.
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I'm intersted here.
Balpa is so expensive but seems to have a bigger membership.
Is the T and G of use to airline crews or are they likely to be not specialised enough?
If they can do the same thing as Balpa or IAP (?) and they are cheaper arent they better value for money?
Balpa is so expensive but seems to have a bigger membership.
Is the T and G of use to airline crews or are they likely to be not specialised enough?
If they can do the same thing as Balpa or IAP (?) and they are cheaper arent they better value for money?
