ICE ON WINGS
 

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....ff6c2f92e6.jpg
Sorry its a bit blurred

I posted this here as I hope to get some sensible professional opinions.

It was well below freezing outside, and I assumed we would be deiced, but the doors closed and we started pushing back. I asked the cabin crew to advise the flight deck that they still had a fair bit of ice on the wings. They came back and advised me that the Captain has checked and the wings are clear and we are not being deiced. What should I have done?

Two days ago our wings had way less ice than that yet we de-iced. That was on a 737-400. The NG wing is different and some CSFF icing may be allowed within a restricted area indicated by black lines on the upper surface of the wing and if approved to do so. That in the picture seems to be an Airbus so maybe there are some different guidances for it...

Not Captain Santa was it ?

It is difficult to tell if that is icing, but the general rule is that the wing upper surface should be clear of all contamination. When the wings were checked, perhaps they were clear, and maybe the ice formed later. However, the Captain is supposed to check before take-off that the aircraft is still clear of contamination. The engineers often check the wings in the first place and order de-icing if required, and/or an agency is employed to predict icing conditions. In theory, the cabin crew will tell the flight deck if there are any changes or concerns before take-off, and in the airlines I have flown for, this would be taken seriously by the flight deck.

The OP could have stood up and banged on the cockpit door and refused to sit down until the aircraft had been de-iced, but that would take big b*lls.

Can a passenger send an ASR to the company or CAA?

It will fly.

Basically its illegal.
 

In all of my outfits only a transparent layer of hoar frost on the underside of the wing caused by cold fuel tanks was allowed and nothing else.
I was sent up front by my captain as I was the only pilot dead heading in uniform with a North African carrier.
He had spotted clear ice which our company engineer had missed. The crew had through tankered, they returned to the ramp and deiced twice to clear the ice.
One of our colleagues climbed onto the wing of the aircraft he was dead heading on as there was more than an inch of snow and the crew told him to mind his own business. Aircraft returned to the ramp and he spent a couple of nights in jail. Its not just the Russians that play silly buggars.

It's up to the pilot to decide if what a passenger sees is ice/snow accumulations on the wing upper surface. The passenger can report what they see but are not expected to be able to over-rule the crew. The photos above don't convince me one way or the other. Nor would I attempt to argue it further once reported to the crew.

Interesting perspective
 

Passenger spots contamination on wing ..crew decides that its irrelevant despite it being illegal!
Back to the Munich disaster where it got three inquires to exonerate the crew. Yes I know it was slush but the similarity is that it is venturing into the unknown.
But once the doors are closed the captain's word is law which doesnt mean he can get away with it especially if it is reported.
If I had doubts whether lhs or rhs I would go back with a torch and check the wings regardless.
Wasnt there an aircraft that ended up in the Pontiac?

Dunno what airline this was, but in mine that would have been a de-ice. Nothing on the upper surfaces for sure and only hoar frost under the wing around the tank area.

Flew with a Captain that swore if you turned on Wing Anti Ice at top of descent and kept it on until parked it would stop the formation of hoar frost on the wing due to cold soaked fuel and would save the next crew from deicing. We had to deice the next day and he went on about his method. Wonder if anyone has come across this theory, especially given that wing anti ice only heats up the leading edge.

The biggest error that day, amongst many, was failing to turn on the engine anti ice so the engine instruments suggested that they had the correct thrust set but the engine's were actually producing considerably less. However the wing had some snow and ice on, the de-icing truck had non approved replacement parts so it didn't spray the correct mix, the captain tried to use the exhaust from another aircraft to melt snow on his own aircraft making the situation worse as it quickly re froze, they sat for over 40 minutes in heavy snow waiting to depart and the FO expressed his concerns that the aircraft was not accelerating properly on the take off roll and that something was wrong but they still continued.

No but they can ask to be offloaded if not convinced by the answer, That might pressure the crew enough to do the right thing...

I know I am going to get a beating for saying this but here it goes anyway:

I wish I could see more respect for a decision that was made by a fellow professional pilot. This is a rumor network, granted, but the OP still knows the flight number and the airline and might try to get the crew flying that day into trouble, all because someone in the internet that is supposedly a pilot is saying - from the comfort of his/her home - that, based on a blurry picture, procedures were not followed, proper checks were not carried out, and safety was compromised.

If the passenger is truly concerned he/she should have contacted the relevant authorities upon arrival, not an internet forum.

If I had to take seriously all the comments and recommendations from passengers that I have received while operating as a pilot I would have landed in the middle of a typhoon, would have hold until below minimum fuel, would have given painkillers from the FAK to one of them without having the slightness clue of his health, and would have been doing long but soft landings regardless of the landing performance calculations.

As usual pilots are their own...

From all the foregoing...all you can do on the day is report to crew or ask to get off. After the event anyone is free to report anything to their local authority, and that would be best channel anyways rather than an open internet forum.

Ttfn

OK, I’ll bite.:)

As you know, in aviation we generally pride ourselves on discovering the causes of accidents or almost-accidents, so that whatever the reasons were, lessons can be learned. The crew will only “get into trouble” if they deliberately do something wrong, e.g. refuse to de-ice. Wing upper surfaces must be completely clear of contamination. Are they? Difficult to tell from the photo, but I can see white patches which can only be frozen water of one kind or another.

Remember the Potomac river disaster, where there were a whole catalogue of errors in icing conditions.

The passenger was truly concerned but did not know what to do or who the relevant authorities are and is trying to find out.

”Captain, there is still ice on the top of your wings”...................

It might be ice, it might be not. I have it many times these days that the fuel temperature is around 1-2 degrees, we have some moisture in the air with low temperatures close to freezing and the only thing you find on the wing is a thin layer of water. Maybe the crew had somebody do a clear Ice check and they didnt see the necessity for a de-ice.

Or, alternatively, it could pressure the pax to not say anything. Who wants to be off-loaded on the last flight of the day....

*I* would - if I had seen ice on the wings and believed the crew was ignoring it. I'd rather be alive and stuck somewhere an extra day.

It’ll be OK. Just a bit of frost.

N90AG

The AAIB report on N90AG at BHX makes for a sobering read.

Never let a crew take you to the end of the runway with ice on top of the wings.

What's your point? It's snowing out.It happens often

Wings covered with snow and no anti-ice fluid.

China Airlines 747 takeof with apparantly contaminated wing
 

This video was posted on this thread.

Is China Airlines exempt from the clean wing policy? Is there something I'm missing here?

There’s a lot of information we don’t know. When was it de-iced. What was the fluid mix. What was the holdover time. In heavy precipitation the wing could well have snow on post de-icing but still be protected. I doubt they would have departed in those conditions without having considered winter SOPs.

It’s difficult to see what’s on the wing. How can you tell they haven’t been de-iced from that video?

No.
If the treated surfaces starts to collect snow, the anti-icing is no more.

I'd be curious to know what the reported visibility was. Even if the critical surfaces had been treated, which is far from obvious, the snowfall intensity seems likely to be in excess of anything for which there's a published holdover time.

It certainly looks scary. We should remember, though, that the video was shot though a long (telephoto) lens, which compresses whatever is in the air between camera and subject. Still, there's obviously a lot of snow falling.

Airbus can have hoarfrost on the top surface of the tanks with cold soaked fuel, even on a 20C day, and many A types are approved for takeoff in that condition as the chief pilot of a former employer advised me after I put in a query. Of course lift from that small section of the wing is next to nothing, but the rest of the wing still works.

Dry snow accumulation on an already cold wing during taxi with air temperature below 0C will blow off.

Other cases can be problematic.

There are combinations of wing, air and precipitation temperature that demand de-icing with a holdover time, generally when the precip sticks to the wing. I remember being seated over the wing. We were de-iced at the gate in ORD and joined the conga line. In the early takeoff acceleration, the entire blanket of snow slid off the wings and joined the pile left by departing aircraft.

Everything above 0C is good as is everything well below 0C.
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