Originally Posted by RatherBeFlying
(Post 10637640)
Airbus can have hoarfrost on the top surface of the tanks with cold soaked fuel, even on a 20C day, and many A types are approved for takeoff in that condition as the chief pilot of a former employer advised me after I put in a query. Of course lift from that small section of the wing is next to nothing, but the rest of the wing still works.
Dry snow accumulation on an already cold wing during taxi with air temperature below 0C will blow off. Other cases can be problematic. There are combinations of wing, air and precipitation temperature that demand de-icing with a holdover time, generally when the precip sticks to the wing. I remember being seated over the wing. We were de-iced at the gate in ORD and joined the conga line. In the early takeoff acceleration, the entire blanket of snow slid off the wings and joined the pile left by departing aircraft. Everything above 0C is good as is everything well below 0C. |
The moment you takeoff, or attempt to take off with any wing contamination, you become a test pilot. Period, as there are no two cases of contamination, the same.That is all you need to know. So, you owe to your passengers and crew, not to take the risk.
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Originally Posted by Capt Fathom
(Post 10637563)
It’s difficult to see what’s on the wing. How can you tell they haven’t been de-iced from that video?
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Originally Posted by Capt Fathom
(Post 10637563)
It’s difficult to see what’s on the wing. How can you tell they haven’t been de-iced from that video?
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Originally Posted by Airmann
(Post 10635200)
Flew with a Captain that swore if you turned on Wing Anti Ice at top of descent and kept it on until parked it would stop the formation of hoar frost on the wing due to cold soaked fuel and would save the next crew from deicing. We had to deice the next day and he went on about his method. Wonder if anyone has come across this theory, especially given that wing anti ice only heats up the leading edge.
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Originally Posted by Vessbot
(Post 10637742)
In North America where I fly, anti-ice (not deice) fluid is garish neon colors so that you can tell it's there. Honest question, is this not true elsewhere?
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Well, if you get below minus 20 or something like that, no de-icing will help in case of freezing rain or some odd similar circumstances...
Hold over time is 0... We've tried it a few times, and traffic just stops, and everyone go back in for a cup of coffee. |
Originally Posted by no sponsor
(Post 10637054)
Personally, I would have come out and had a look myself. Anyway, if you want to see a real eye opener take a look at the following China Airlines clip: https://youtu.be/D6OjSd3ojHE |
Yep!
Old news! |
Originally Posted by 4runner
(Post 10637747)
dude, look in your deice manual. There’s 4 types of fluid and they have different colors. |
Firstly thank you all for keeping it civil. Obviously I know which carrier it was, but it won't ever be mentioned here, as I have taken it up with senior management at the airline and I will contact the associated authority in due course if I don't get a suitable reply.
My intention is not to cause anyone any harm, but to throw my pebble into the pond and get everyone thinking about ice and cold weather ops in the N hemisphere this time of year. And if you really want to know what I did: I mentioned it to the cabin crew who contacted the flight deck, who said the wing is clear and they will tow back on to the stand shutdown and let me off if that is what I want, and that is what I did. I decided that if I would not take that contaminated wing myself as Capt, I would not fly as a passenger. As I left the aircraft the FO came to the flight deck door and I explained politely why I was not happy to fly with them. To the best of my knowledge the aircraft was never deiced, not one member of the crew ever took a look at the wing, and the aircraft departed as seen, and arrived at its destination just a few mins behind schedule. Oh and just in case, I am in my 60's with +30,000hr having flown in The Air Force, and commercially for 40y (Check Airman/TRE B747/777/787) and currently fly the B787, but in this case does it really matter? What would YOU have done as a member of the crew or pax? That is the end of it on this forum from me. I hope you all fly safe, and if I have made just one aviator take a second look at their cold weather ops procedures, I have achieved my aim. Thanks |
Originally Posted by Vessbot
(Post 10637952)
I asked about elsewhere in the world... where there are different suppliers, regulations, etc. The assumption that everything is the same everywhere is often a naive one.
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Originally Posted by 4runner
(Post 10638379)
I’m an international 767 Captain. It’s the same everywhere for a reason. That doesn’t mean it’s available in all types, but the colors and components are universal. That’s why it’s in the aircraft and company manuals. What I really mean to say: you can explain something without sounding like a donkey. |
Originally Posted by 4runner
(Post 10637747)
dude, look in your deice manual. There’s 4 types of fluid and they have different colors. |
Checkmate, Good on yer! I agree with you 100%
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Air Florida in the Potomac was engine icing not airfoil contamination. Crew set EPR but failed to cross check N1 and the rest is history.
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Originally Posted by hans brinker
(Post 10638608)
In 20 years I have only used I and IV.
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Air Florida in the Potomac was engine icing not airfoil contamination. Crew set EPR but failed to cross check N1 and the rest is history. |
Originally Posted by Busserday
(Post 10638861)
Air Florida in the Potomac was engine icing not airfoil contamination. Crew set EPR but failed to cross check N1 and the rest is history.
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Originally Posted by tdracer
(Post 10639386)
The EPR error due to the lack of engine anti-ice was the primary problem, but loss of lift due to wing contamination was a contributing factor.
Is there really a finding in the report that wing contamination was a factor? The engine EPR probe is in a fixed nose dome ahead of the fan and as such subject to lower temperatures during taxi out in snow/icing conditions without the benefit of de-icing |
Originally Posted by Airmann
(Post 10635200)
Flew with a Captain that swore if you turned on Wing Anti Ice at top of descent and kept it on until parked it would stop the formation of hoar frost on the wing due to cold soaked fuel and would save the next crew from deicing. We had to deice the next day and he went on about his method. Wonder if anyone has come across this theory, especially given that wing anti ice only heats up the leading edge.
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There was a write up on an DC10/MD11 over Russia that wasn’t given clearance to descend due to fuel temp. The F/O suggested wing device, over the next hour(s) the temp came up enough to allow them to continue2-3 degrees. |
Originally Posted by rigpiggy
(Post 10639913)
There was a write up on an DC10/MD11 over Russia that wasn’t given clearance to descend due to fuel temp. The F/O suggested wing device, over the next hour(s) the temp came up enough to allow them to continue2-3 degrees. Aviation is a very cool and lasting game if you play by the rules. If people start making their own it generally bites their arses sooner or later. |
Originally Posted by hans brinker
(Post 10638607)
I flew international too! It was on a B1900, flew between Florida and the Bahama's. Never had to deice tho....
What I really mean to say: you can explain something without sounding like a donkey. |
Probably the pilots should have ordered a deicing in the first place but I wonder if the management or the captain ever asked the cabin crew if he/she has any form of technical knowledge/ training to substantiate his/her call that there was ice on the wing? Can he/she differentiate rime ice, clear ice, hoar froze etc? As the captain, we are all trained to manage this sort of risk (with the copilot support) and make the appropriate judgement, the last thing I need is a cabin crew to second guess my decision at the takeoff position. Of course, plus the sh!t that the management throw at us after that. |
flightleader, I might be missing something in your post but what does it matter what form of frozen water is on the top of your wings? The top of the wings must be clear of contamination, whatever that may be.
Do you brief your cabin crew regarding wing contamination? If not, how do you check your wings are clear before taking off? the last thing I need is a cabin crew to second guess my decision at the takeoff position. |
CRM
We used to check in 20 mins early, check with dispatch, security, load control and met then go to the cabin crew briefing giving them the full picture, what we expected from them and how we could help each other improve the service and safety.
No rank Bull, no sir Bull and no up our own posteriors. If the CC was in doubt then off I went with a tourch and in full smart uniform including bonnet to have a deco myself. Its what our pax paid for, service and safety. |
Uplinker, CRM is not about ‘rights’ to speak up! It is the appropriate participation at the appropriate time for a common goal, which is safety in aviation. Do you think calling the cockpit while the aircraft is on the runway is a safe thing to do? I am sure if the captain was not doing the right thing the copilot would have corrected him. Icing can happen on aircraft even in clear blue sky such as descending with cold fuel in tanks. Do you want cabin crew to call you about it? Or engine nacelles icing while crisscrossing those altocumulus, you want them to call too? Has the cabin crew been trained in these too? Once the cabin crew interfered with the pilots operational decisions, the pilots had to do the most conservative action to defend themselves against any potential inquiry and associate repercussions. That is the real deal of life in the airline. |
Originally Posted by flightleader
(Post 10641741)
Once the cabin crew interfered with the pilots operational decisions, the pilots had to do the most conservative action to defend themselves against any potential inquiry and associate repercussions. That is the real deal of life in the airline. |
Mostly everywhere cabin colleagues are trained. That includes the concept of sterile cockpit during taxi-out, the meaning of "seats for departure" call or similar, and the rejected takeoff drill. The necessary insight on tasks and workload of the pilots is included.
They won't call the front office just for losing facebook connectivity on their mobiles. While the practical application would vary should the day come, a CC call to FD during the roll below 100 kt is a good trigger to reject. ------- The original picture that started this thread is non-environmental icing - upper wing frost. And about the most severe case I remember ever seeing, flying the same type for a few years. The next morning after this thread started, we de-iced for the same phenomenon except due to only 1/4 cover compared to the pic above (going would be still illegal). By the our crew arrived at the A/C after an overnight stay, the de-icing equipment was already waiting without being ordered, such clear cut the case was. Judging from the fluid patches all around, several planes got the treatment and had departed already. https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....01bbd6d9f7.jpg |
A different day and plane, shot through jetty windows while paxing. One of them is water condensation which IMHO cannot be confirmed from the photo as it is, the other .... anyone's guess.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....faf31a19dc.jpg https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....a1fcadf6d9.jpg |
Originally Posted by FlightDetent
(Post 10641923)
a CC call to FD during the roll below 100 kt is a good trigger to reject.
you gonna reject a take off at 100 knots to take a phone call? :sad: |
Originally Posted by Gin Jockey
(Post 10643904)
:confused:
you gonna reject a take off at 100 knots to take a phone call? :sad: |
Another example of the persons on board being part of the test flight program. Don't assume the snow or slush will be blown off the top surface of the wing. Low pressure = low temperature? Once the aircraft starts moving the temperature drop may just be enough to make it stick. Nuf said. |
Originally Posted by Dan_Brown
(Post 10644539)
https://youtu.be/fMZaMmUWj3o
Another example of the persons on board being part of the test flight program. Don't assume the snow or slush will be blown off the top surface of the wing. Low pressure = low temperature? Once the aircraft starts moving the temperature drop may just be enough to make it stick. Nuf said. |
Originally Posted by flightleader
(Post 10641741)
Uplinker, Do you think calling the cockpit while the aircraft is on the runway is a safe thing to do? Depends what the problem is doesn’t it? A well trained and properly briefed crew* will only call if there is a very serious problem. “There are flames around the engine”, or “some fluid is pouring from the wing”, would be quite good to know before releasing the brakes and pushing the thrust levers forward. Regarding wing contamination, a final check that the wings are clear should be made before lining up. If you do not want any comments from your cabin crew, how do you achieve this?, (given that you cannot see your own wings from the cockpit). Open the DV window? I am sure if the captain was not doing the right thing the copilot would have told him. Icing can happen on aircraft even in clear blue sky such as descending with cold fuel in tanks. Do you want cabin crew to call you about it? Or engine nacelles icing while crisscrossing those altocumulus, you want them to call too? Has the cabin crew been trained in these too? Once the cabin crew interfered with the pilots operational decisions.......... (my bold) I really think you need to attend a CRM course ! NB: CRM means CREW Resource Management, i.e. the whole aircrew. NOT Copilot Resource Management, nor Captain Resource Management. One day, your cabin crew might notice something important and help prevent an incident becoming an accident, or even save your life. Safe flying. *I have been in three airlines, one European, two International. The cabin crew training in all three was excellent, including CRM. |
Uplinker, There is no need to get into a state of piloerection. All I am saying is, the cabin crew input has to be timely, the information has to be factually credible. I have been flying commercial jets for 30 years and more than 20 years in command, if a wing needs to be inspected before lining up for takeoff, I would trust the copilot or the augmenting pilots to do it instead of the cabin crew. By the way, my crew can place a call that has different level urgency to me. It would display as ‘CABIN ALERT’ or just a usual ‘ CABIN CALL’. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year! |
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