Land or Go Around?
 

2 mile final, rwy in sight, a big jet. You´re on Tower frequency, call for clearance, nothing, no response whatsoever, nothing on the radio...land or go around?

Definite go around

Simple: Go around, big jet or not......
Afterwards you can always tell the guy on the prev. frequency to wake up his mate in the tower....

Call ground on box2 as he's probably sitting next to the tower guy, to ask what is happening, if no luck then go around, if it's sorted then thats a few hundred quids worth of fuel saved.

Keep calling for clearance for as long as you can... but keep a lookout... Just don't touch that runway without clearance... that'll wake the tower up... J/K
A few years ago a 732 had to do a low fly by at an airport somewhere here to get the airport to realize that there was a flight coming in...

right, thanks guys, but can´t this be considered a lost comm scenario, where the most appropriate thing to do would be to land and terminate the flight?
What if you go around and can´t establish comm afterwards, isn´t that much bigger of a problem?
Trying other frequencies and looking for light signals is completely valid, and should be done, but if you´re on a 2 mile final, don´t u think squawking 7600 and landing is appropriate as well?

Local field; nothing going on except your flight; land it.

Solve the crap later. By definition you're perhaps wrong, but that Cessna 152 you could land as well without clearance on some strips, no?
Its only to cover your ass in case something might go wrong.

If you're sure the runway is yours, why don't take it?
You'd even have the backup of the local green party..

LHR? would't try it..

CDG? you would have gotten the clearance already while being number 3 on 9 miles final.. what's the difference in this case?

In that phase of flight there is no time to figure out if comms are lost or not. Fly the published missed approach procedure, if necessary enter a hold and try to solve the problem. Haste makes waste.

Actually... just read the damn books...
Under comms fail, it says under VMC (2 mile final & runway in sight? Hmmm)... land at nearest suitable airport... which is the runway you're heading to...

If in IMC, your ETA would be revised to within 30 mins anyways of your actual landing time if you lost comms on a 2 mile final...

Don't forget to "lookout for visual signals"

But at the same time, of equal importance, it states one should try and contact the other ATC facilities or other aircraft... Failing that, transmit blind...

The ATC will upon realising there's a comms fail try to raise you on the radio, if no response from you, they'll try and get other aircraft (if any), or assume you will take the standard procedures... which, in VMC, you'll land since you're on approach and try to get the runway to be yours and clear the traffic away from you.

If you're within the airport traffic, they will assume you'll land...

You can do either... but if in IMC, I'd go around first... if you're in radar coverage area, it's best to give them notice that you think you're on lost comms...

Wouldn't there be a couple of considerations determining which action the pilot would take? Did U contact Tower beforehand? Are you aware of any traffic? Was the previous ATC you contacted that handed you off to the tower a dedicated terminal area ATCS for the airport, or an area control? Blablablabla...

Bugger it's 2am and I need some sleep instead of babbling rubbish here...

How much fuel have you got? That usually decides many things. Weather below minimums at 1000 feet? How much fuel have you got? That'll be the biggest decider. The books are good, great in fact, but thinking on your feet and making the decisions is why they pay you the big bucks. At two miles and having listened to the RT for the last few minutes will build up your SA. In my 30 years flying, the only reason I didn't get a landing clearance on short final was due to a comms failure on tower's behalf. I landed on all occasions and was right every time. However, I still treat every occasion as a individual occurance and make my decision on the facts of the day.

No brainer...
 

Definitely switch to the ground control frequency...talk to the ground controller (who is probably right next to the local controller)...tell him what's going on, THEN LAND ON THE PARALLEL TAXIWAY. THAT'LL TEACH 'EM!!!

PantLoad

:=:=:=

If the runway is clear, I'd land.

Not at such short notice, IMO. There's obviously been a stuff up somewhere, and if you land you take the chance of running into any manner of objects (vehicles, other aircraft crossing).

The lost comm procedure is designed to make sure you give as much notice as possible before you make your approach, so ATC can get everybody out of the way. Making a snap decision to land after not getting a response from the tower 60 seconds to touchdown doesn't achieve that.

By all means try SMC, look for visual signals, but definitely then Go Round if not positive clearance to land.

Think of it another way: IF you ran into somebody on the runway, what would you say to the judge?

good point captain, but if you´ve been cleared for an approach to a rwy you´re not supposed to run into any vehicles or anything, and if fuel and wx is a concern a go around may also take you to the judge´s office. Of course there´s not an absolute answer here, every scenario should be analyzed if possible, but my initial post calls for a 2 mile final no response call, which could be due to a partial and temporary problem, a stuck mike or something easily solved, or a major comm loss. I think that if you still hear the tower freq. that´s once thing, but if everything´s complete silence and you go around you´re now back in the air after some time flying, going to an alternate which might be busy as well, possibly in a non radar environment, etc etc...I am not leaning toward landing, but just expressing that a go around might complicate things as well.
Thank you for all of your comments. It´s good to know how you guys think !!
A great pleasure,
SW.

A lost comm scenario can happen any time...and consideration is given to a failure with an airport in sight...and the idea behind that is "get out of the system, see and avoid"

My take is at two miles you have little time, and its not the place to be engaged in trouble shooting (one minute to touchdown max - aviate, navigate, communicate etc), particularly if IMC. Go round and establish cause ie is it really lost coms, finger trouble, previous controller gave wrong freq and you failed for whatever reason to pick it up - an endless list of reasons could be the cause. Have been caught out by the fact that the volume had been turned down.

Well, lets see...this very same scenario happened to me about two years ago at Cairo, poor visibility due to rising sand, 48 minutes holding (had stacks of fuel, so no problem...lots of other airplanes diverted however), final vectors, cleared for approach, call the tower.
Nothing.
Called the tower again.
Nothing.
Now two miles final in our big three engine jet, called Cairo Ground.
Ground says....'LN202, cleared to land.'
Between the time that the approach controller had released us to call the tower, and we called, a backhoe had sliced through a big electrical cable, thereby failing all the tower frequencies, the ILS, the NDB, the VOR and much of the airport lighting...leaving only ground control on a standby frequency, active.
The ground controller told me it was battery powered.
Approaching the parking bay, the ground controller wanted to know how we found the airport, as all the nav aids were unserviceable.
'Honeywell HT9100 GPS' I told him.
Superb units these, supremely accurate.
IFR stand-alone approved, enroute, terminal, approach.

Very handy to have.

Doc 44.44 must be able to answer this.
Perhaps this question should be moved to the controllers section.

But making the landing without clearance, either verbal or visual, calls for some serious explaining in court...

Common Sense.
 

Simply, go around!

Don't make the story long,,,

Had this very scenario just a couple of months ago at DH +200'

Have NHP call tower on box 2.

Cleared then land ( in our case )
No contact then mins followed by standard miss

No clearance then no land, no brainer in UK

Not so, Sudden Winds. if you are cleared for the approach, that does not mean that the runway is available.

Also we are assuming here that the aircraft is on final for Frankfurt, say, and not Brussels?

........big jet............

So that will be between 1200 and 2000 kgs for a missed, circuit and land.

If Approach had passed you to Tower, then I would land - sort out the hassle on the ground rather than in the ground later on :eek:

No argument - go around.

I failed to make a finals call on a controlled RAF airfield when under training years ago - though totally clear of traffic, the go-around call from the tower made the point that no landing without clearance should be attempted...

...especially since the Army co-used the airfield and frequently crossed the active in a jeep without clearance!

Think - emergency developing, and controller is otherwise occupied sorting it out. He expects you to go-around without clearance, but may not have had time to tell you. Who would look a prat if they ploughed into something they had not seen then...? Alternatively, who would care for the few extra tonnes of fuel burned if you went around and established contact...?

Easy answer.

Only an idiot would attempt a landing without clearance at a controlled airfield: tower controllers don't always sit in the same room as approach and ground controllers remember!

Never land without a clearance
 

You might have an open mike.

If you think you have an open mike, say so on the frequency. That way you've informed Tower you have the open mike. They will give you a green light to land, or red for the miss.

If you cannot free the open mike, deselect the transmitter select switch. At least you're not sending out music to the ears of others as you curse the boss.

Whether you have an open mike or not, next time you brief an arrival make sure you brief where the Tower is located. Then you'll know where to look if searching for a green light. Sounds like 20/20, doesn't it.

Kai Tak, Hongkong. Runway 31. Early morning arrival. My mike gets stuck as we transfer to Tower. I try everything to free it. I even bang Boeing's column-mounted PTT a few times.

Our multi-skilled Captain gets engaged. He tries to use his hand mike, fly the plane, put the flaps out himself and generally save the day.

It's getting ugly. I suggest we go-round. He swears and carries like on like an old chook a little more. Music to the ears...

We go round, fly the missed approach, free the mike of its burden. In due course, Departures tell us to contact Tower. We get a clearance to land.

Talking to the Tower later on, they said they'd been flashing the green at us for some time on the first approach.

Lesson learned: brief where the Tower is located.

Finally, if you are NOT in possession of a clearance to land, don't.

This isn't subjective. Look up your manuals. Recall your training. We're not talking about military aviation here, nor emergencies, just plain old boring commercial aviation.

Keep it boring!

'Brief where the tower is located '

I shall have to add that!

me too.....excellent guys...a great pleasure to have discussed this with you.
SW.

which bring me on to another question....how many pilots of large commercial airliners operating into a busy airport would really be looking out for the flashes of an ALDIS lamp if they went R/T fail. We have one in our tower, busy airport, its apparently never been out the box and probably doesn't work.

Tower's green light?
 

To be sure, I admit I've rarely ever briefed where the Tower is during my descent briefings, both before or after our issue at Kai Tak.

Nor am I overly familiar with hand signals, until called on to use them when about to park after a diversion where there's limited ground support and signals are needed.

BB has a point.

My contribution was only that the funny thing about aviation is we never seem to make the same mistakes a second time - for at least two years.

By then the lessons we learned from the last stuff up are largely forgotten.

Checking where Tower is located is a sound idea yet rarely required.

No need to reinvent the wheel, but if you can make the edges rounder, all power to you.

And if you ever remember to check where the Tower's located, you may find it to be very useful information, one day, just like knowing those infernal hand signals :ok:

But landing without a clearance...:=

As has already been pointed out, a clearance to approach is not a clearance to land.

Last time I visited a tower they had millions of dollars worth of electronic aids and they had Verey Flares ready to go, red and green.

No clearance then No land.

That's easy to say, but what are you going to do next?

Land straight ahead provided the runway is clear. (We do this all the time at non-controlled airports).
Risk colliding with something on the ground.

Follow the missed approach procedure. Still no contact. Risk colliding with someone in the air?

There is no straight forward answer. Your experience and situational awareness (and gut feeling) on the day will dictate the most prudent course of action.

The regulations do not provide for all scenarios!

Got TCAS?

PK-KAR

Capt Fathom,

Hope your local ATC unit does not issue an approach clearance that does not include the eventuality of a missed approach :=

No, in fact, I know they don't... :ugh:

If you go around and follow the published missed approach, you can pick up the pieces afterwards, in the hold somewhere. If you land, you force yourself to take a rather big decision in a rather small amount of time.

No doubt - you go around, end of story. Flying to and from a controlled AD is different from the uncontrolled version of same :(

http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircra...ideo-8736.html

Here's one that should have been a go-around! (see 737 approach from around 3:20 in)

The missed approach ends at a hold.

Enter it, check your Lost Comms procedure in whatever manuals you have.

Follow them; it's not hard.

Don't make a bad situation worse.

You cannot land without a clearance.

The missed approach ends at a hold

Not always. Many cases are "straight ahead XXXXft and contact ATC."
Ah, but there is a comms problem.

...and the dilligent observer will find that most of these (all that I can think of at the mo, in fact) have a note or sub-page (like 10-10 or summat) explaining the lost comms missed approach :ok:

Happened to me in real life - solution go-around
Visual approach to IOM with the approach then in 2 miles final switch to tower. The Captain gets the freq wrong by .005
:}:}:}
So no rising the tower and no clearance to land. We go-around at 100 feet ground rise approach again on the previous and see the mishap on the tower freq. Everybody had a good laugh. And the Capt apologize to the PAX.

Comment from Tower: "Perfectly fine with us to go around as you had no contact". He made sure that we had landing clearance after a visual circuit when we were abeam and confirmed again on final. (I love the English humor)

Nothing happened. I don't want to know what would have happened if we hit something on the runway...

IMO: I would go-around again in this case and sort out the problem later.

Well I guess if something was on the runway you would not have landed ... just a thought!

It's not rocket science!

that's true :}

My 2 cents:

If cleared approach and lost comms, couldn't reach the previous controller either, I'd land if I broke cloud and runway clear. Re-entering the clag, figuring out the miss, transition over to another approach, NORDO, seems a lot more risky and troublesome for the controller than landing. Clear day, plenty of fuel, mebbe go-around and have someone wake up the controller, BUT it seems too much like I'm up there flying around, so the ATCOs have something to do. Planes land all the time in my experience sans clearance because there isn't any controllers.

For the sake of argument, controlled field, no answer from the tower, your radios are working based on previous use--would you who say DO NOT land without clearance:

A) Circle the field until fuel exhaustion
B) Divert, VMC or IMC
C) Land and walk over to the tower and find out what's up with them

I'm for C

GF

ATCers view point here http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=283048