Land or Go around
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Land or Go around
Dear Friends,
I posted this thread in the "tech log" forum, I Žd like you to read it and tell us what, from a controller stand point, you need us to do in the situation explained.
THANK you !!!
SW.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=282918
I posted this thread in the "tech log" forum, I Žd like you to read it and tell us what, from a controller stand point, you need us to do in the situation explained.
THANK you !!!
SW.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=282918
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right, but my question is....assuming no comm is re established, ie, an aircraft failure. is it ok to land under the "lost comm procedures" that says that if you are vmc land at the nearest suitable airport...or ATC is expecting us to go around.....isnŽt it safer to just land and terminate a possibly conflicting flight ? Of course IŽd look outside for signals and try to contact app or gnd...
Regards,
SW.
Regards,
SW.
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Yes, if you are on a RFC and flying under VFR the controller will assume you are going to look for the most suitable airport and land, but that is not the situation youŽre talking about. Go around, definitely. Then report it.
Not really enough info, but then, until you get the "hindsight effect", there usually isn't in this kind of scenario.
Possibilities: (Some of many)
-Your receiver has failed. (try another radio)
-Your rx/and tx has failed. (ditto)
-Tower radio has failed. (standby radio should be on in seconds)
-Tower frequency is jammed. (you would likely hear lots of squeal, and maybe some words)
-Tower controller has become incapacitated. (try ground)
-Something major has happened, which could be anything from an earthquake to unlawful interference. Pretty rare.
In all the above, watch for lights. Need to know where the tower is.
What I need you to do?
Will totally vary depending on the situation. Unless you see a green light (the rocking of wings in response is not expected here) there is no guarantee the runway is clear.
If the runway is clear, and the problem is with your radio, but you can't hear me saying "cleared to land", I want you to land, but am ready for you to overshoot.
You, of course, don't know this.
If the runway isn't clear, maybe there's a broken down vehicle on it, and you or I have had a comms failure, I need you to overshoot.
You, of course, won't know this. Though you might see the vehicle as you get closer. And if you look, you might see the red light, too. (It's amazing how many pilots don't look for lights, and we have comms failures regularly. Usually someone on the wrong frequency, or a jammed transmitter.)
If it's night time and I need you to overshoot, expect the runway to go dark.
So it's all a bit vague, I'm afraid, and snap decisions to be made on short notice, but the default is to overshoot.
What I expect, or hope you to do is keep transmitting your intentions, watch for lights, try other radios, try other frequencies, squawk 76, and if you have an emergency (unrelated) (how unlucky are we getting now) 7700, and if still no luck with the radios, (by now you will have landed or gone round) once you're sorted with the actual flying bit grab a hold of that most useful piece of emergency gear, the cellphone. Provided it's not going to interfere with systems on board that you might need more.
End of the day, it's your call, but, I say again, the default is to go around.
Possibilities: (Some of many)
-Your receiver has failed. (try another radio)
-Your rx/and tx has failed. (ditto)
-Tower radio has failed. (standby radio should be on in seconds)
-Tower frequency is jammed. (you would likely hear lots of squeal, and maybe some words)
-Tower controller has become incapacitated. (try ground)
-Something major has happened, which could be anything from an earthquake to unlawful interference. Pretty rare.
In all the above, watch for lights. Need to know where the tower is.
What I need you to do?
Will totally vary depending on the situation. Unless you see a green light (the rocking of wings in response is not expected here) there is no guarantee the runway is clear.
If the runway is clear, and the problem is with your radio, but you can't hear me saying "cleared to land", I want you to land, but am ready for you to overshoot.
You, of course, don't know this.
If the runway isn't clear, maybe there's a broken down vehicle on it, and you or I have had a comms failure, I need you to overshoot.
You, of course, won't know this. Though you might see the vehicle as you get closer. And if you look, you might see the red light, too. (It's amazing how many pilots don't look for lights, and we have comms failures regularly. Usually someone on the wrong frequency, or a jammed transmitter.)
If it's night time and I need you to overshoot, expect the runway to go dark.
So it's all a bit vague, I'm afraid, and snap decisions to be made on short notice, but the default is to overshoot.
What I expect, or hope you to do is keep transmitting your intentions, watch for lights, try other radios, try other frequencies, squawk 76, and if you have an emergency (unrelated) (how unlucky are we getting now) 7700, and if still no luck with the radios, (by now you will have landed or gone round) once you're sorted with the actual flying bit grab a hold of that most useful piece of emergency gear, the cellphone. Provided it's not going to interfere with systems on board that you might need more.
End of the day, it's your call, but, I say again, the default is to go around.
suddenWinds, you're more than welcome. And thanks for the comment!
Reasoning based on a bit of experience is all that was, too, I certainly don't have the RCF procedures down pat. (Not at all, really. That's what the QRH is for.)
Probably whatever you do, Murphy's law being what it is, someone will find something to moan about. But it's you has to sleep on it when the lights go down. My inclination is to try and let common sense have a bit of a play in the world wherever possible, where we're still allowed to.
Reasoning based on a bit of experience is all that was, too, I certainly don't have the RCF procedures down pat. (Not at all, really. That's what the QRH is for.)
Probably whatever you do, Murphy's law being what it is, someone will find something to moan about. But it's you has to sleep on it when the lights go down. My inclination is to try and let common sense have a bit of a play in the world wherever possible, where we're still allowed to.
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Markjoy, thanks for your reply -- nearly all seems to make sense.
However, I do have a slight concern about switching off the runway lights to signal a "don't land." I don't know the location of your airport but when coming in at night the runway gives pilots a lot of reference once they have transitioned to visual flight. In some places it's the only reference!
Now if suddenly the lights go off in theory we switch back to instrument flight and go around. However, human factors research, and incidents on black hole approaches have shown this is not actually that straightforward. The brain has at this stage been using the outside reference to place 'itself' in the world. Now these lights are suddenly gone and we go-around, completely confusing the senses (somatographic illusion; the accelleration will give a feeling up pitch-up). The brain subconciously tries to hold on to it's references which are now gone. This coupled with the fact that we feel we are pitching up suddenly makes sense to the brain: we feel a pitch-up and we can no longer see the runway -- so we must be pitching up then! In reality we are heading at full-thrust toward the ground.
Yes -- we should be trusting our instruments and we are trained to do so. However, it has failed in the past and sudden change of outside reference is a major contributing factor to this human failing. All of this is why I don't think the lights going off is a good idea. Maybe just the PAPI's if installed, but other than that.... no thanks.
Other than that -- you make perfect sense
.
However, I do have a slight concern about switching off the runway lights to signal a "don't land." I don't know the location of your airport but when coming in at night the runway gives pilots a lot of reference once they have transitioned to visual flight. In some places it's the only reference!
Now if suddenly the lights go off in theory we switch back to instrument flight and go around. However, human factors research, and incidents on black hole approaches have shown this is not actually that straightforward. The brain has at this stage been using the outside reference to place 'itself' in the world. Now these lights are suddenly gone and we go-around, completely confusing the senses (somatographic illusion; the accelleration will give a feeling up pitch-up). The brain subconciously tries to hold on to it's references which are now gone. This coupled with the fact that we feel we are pitching up suddenly makes sense to the brain: we feel a pitch-up and we can no longer see the runway -- so we must be pitching up then! In reality we are heading at full-thrust toward the ground.
Yes -- we should be trusting our instruments and we are trained to do so. However, it has failed in the past and sudden change of outside reference is a major contributing factor to this human failing. All of this is why I don't think the lights going off is a good idea. Maybe just the PAPI's if installed, but other than that.... no thanks.
Other than that -- you make perfect sense
.
Phoenix X, I certainly understand where you're coming from, there, having experienced that first hand on a missed approach (and for a time, failing to climb), but also from an accident some years ago where a Cv580 on departure with an (apparently) faulty AH gently pitched down after initial climb; the factors you mention were also mentioned in the accident report.
Believe me, the only time the runway lights would be turned off in this situation would be if the runway was occupied.
My assumption would be that if you have comms problems, there's an above average chance you may have other problems, or at least distractions, therefore you'd be given priority to use the runway, which all being normal, at two mile final chances are you'd be first to use it anyway. So I'm referring to the abnormal, eg a breakdown on the runway.
Which would you rather risk? Certain collision with a vehicle at the midpoint, or possible disorientation attempting to transit quickly to missed approach mode?
Believe me, the only time the runway lights would be turned off in this situation would be if the runway was occupied.
My assumption would be that if you have comms problems, there's an above average chance you may have other problems, or at least distractions, therefore you'd be given priority to use the runway, which all being normal, at two mile final chances are you'd be first to use it anyway. So I'm referring to the abnormal, eg a breakdown on the runway.
Which would you rather risk? Certain collision with a vehicle at the midpoint, or possible disorientation attempting to transit quickly to missed approach mode?
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I'm also worried about the "turn the lights off" thing. On the one hand, it's an obvious sign that, for all practical purposes, the runway is not there anymore. At least, not there for me to land on. On the other hand, as said before, it will be a major disorientating factor.
Isn't there some middle ground. E.g. turning the center/edge lights off, but leave the end markings, the taxiways and the PAPI on? That should be enough not to get disoriented. Or just flash them on and off?
Obviously this'll be airport specific. I don't know how your electric circuits are wired and what the possibilities are.
Isn't there some middle ground. E.g. turning the center/edge lights off, but leave the end markings, the taxiways and the PAPI on? That should be enough not to get disoriented. Or just flash them on and off?
Obviously this'll be airport specific. I don't know how your electric circuits are wired and what the possibilities are.
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Let me tell you a story.....
About 8 years ago I was working as a ground movement controller as part of a team of 5 (Air, Ground, tower assistant, Approach and approach assistant). It was a winter weekend, a quiet day, approaching dusk with a low sun in the sky at the upwind end of the runway.
The Air controller cleared somebody for take off and gave a conditional clearance to an operations vehicle to enter behind for a runway inspection, both clearances were heard and read back. At this time there was an ATP on a closing heading for the localiser about 9miles out, obviously working Approach. The frequency in Tower went quiet.
The ATP was now on a 5 mile final and tower tried to contact with a "xxx123 are you on frequency?" They then turned to me and said "My frequency sounds dead". I selected the tower frequency on receive only and got him to try again. I heard nothing. I switched to transmit and tried....Nothing.
The tower assistant picked up on what was going on and was grabbing for the Aldis lamp and the red and green lenses. Tower told him to attach the red and show it to the operations vehicle on the runway (which was travelling away from us and the landing aircraft) and then to the landing aircraft, now inside 4 miles. Meanwhile I contacted approach and told them if they had the aircraft or re-established contact to sent it around. They transmitted blind as did I on the ground frequency. The aircraft continued to a blocked runway and time started to slow down in that horrible way.
The approach assistant, meantime, got in touch with airfield operations and told them to try the vehicle on the base operations frequency and tell it to vacate immediately.
We saw in tower as the the ops vehicle swerved off the runway on to the grass and clear of the runway strip. The tower assistant switched to the green lens and shone it at the ATP now 2 miles from touchdown. The tower controller had been transmitting blind and now the radio delivered feedback and he confirmed the landing clearance and got a readback.
Whilst taxying in I explained to the aircraft that we had a comms failure and asked if he had seen the lights. The pilot responded that he had believed that it was the aircraft that had the comms failure, that the PNF had been trying to sort it out, that yes he had seen a bright green light but wasnt sure what it meant, he had seen the runway was clear and so elected to land. I asked if he had seen the vehicle on the runway, after a period of silence he said that he had better call in.
The wash up...
If only the JCB hadnt dug through the cables...If only the stanby frequency hadnt taken so long to kick in...If only there wasnt an assumption that the frequency was quiet because it was a quiet day...If only there wasnt an assumption that the problem was on the aircraft...If only the landing aircraft had been on frequency when the ops vehicle was cleared onto the runway...If only the ops vehicle had inspected towards the landing aircraft...If only the setting sun hadnt hidden the ops vehicle from view...If only the PNF hadnt been heads down trying to sort the problem out...If only they knew their light signals and where to look for them...etc etc
These could have been the points I would have been thinking and saying at the subsequent board of enquiry. Fortunately the swiss cheese effect was defeated by good teamwork and maybe a little bit of luck.
Many of our procedures have changed and equipment been upgraded because of this incident. Please do likewise, plug the cheese as early as possible. If no landing clearance, GO AROUND.
About 8 years ago I was working as a ground movement controller as part of a team of 5 (Air, Ground, tower assistant, Approach and approach assistant). It was a winter weekend, a quiet day, approaching dusk with a low sun in the sky at the upwind end of the runway.
The Air controller cleared somebody for take off and gave a conditional clearance to an operations vehicle to enter behind for a runway inspection, both clearances were heard and read back. At this time there was an ATP on a closing heading for the localiser about 9miles out, obviously working Approach. The frequency in Tower went quiet.
The ATP was now on a 5 mile final and tower tried to contact with a "xxx123 are you on frequency?" They then turned to me and said "My frequency sounds dead". I selected the tower frequency on receive only and got him to try again. I heard nothing. I switched to transmit and tried....Nothing.
The tower assistant picked up on what was going on and was grabbing for the Aldis lamp and the red and green lenses. Tower told him to attach the red and show it to the operations vehicle on the runway (which was travelling away from us and the landing aircraft) and then to the landing aircraft, now inside 4 miles. Meanwhile I contacted approach and told them if they had the aircraft or re-established contact to sent it around. They transmitted blind as did I on the ground frequency. The aircraft continued to a blocked runway and time started to slow down in that horrible way.
The approach assistant, meantime, got in touch with airfield operations and told them to try the vehicle on the base operations frequency and tell it to vacate immediately.
We saw in tower as the the ops vehicle swerved off the runway on to the grass and clear of the runway strip. The tower assistant switched to the green lens and shone it at the ATP now 2 miles from touchdown. The tower controller had been transmitting blind and now the radio delivered feedback and he confirmed the landing clearance and got a readback.
Whilst taxying in I explained to the aircraft that we had a comms failure and asked if he had seen the lights. The pilot responded that he had believed that it was the aircraft that had the comms failure, that the PNF had been trying to sort it out, that yes he had seen a bright green light but wasnt sure what it meant, he had seen the runway was clear and so elected to land. I asked if he had seen the vehicle on the runway, after a period of silence he said that he had better call in.
The wash up...
If only the JCB hadnt dug through the cables...If only the stanby frequency hadnt taken so long to kick in...If only there wasnt an assumption that the frequency was quiet because it was a quiet day...If only there wasnt an assumption that the problem was on the aircraft...If only the landing aircraft had been on frequency when the ops vehicle was cleared onto the runway...If only the ops vehicle had inspected towards the landing aircraft...If only the setting sun hadnt hidden the ops vehicle from view...If only the PNF hadnt been heads down trying to sort the problem out...If only they knew their light signals and where to look for them...etc etc
These could have been the points I would have been thinking and saying at the subsequent board of enquiry. Fortunately the swiss cheese effect was defeated by good teamwork and maybe a little bit of luck.
Many of our procedures have changed and equipment been upgraded because of this incident. Please do likewise, plug the cheese as early as possible. If no landing clearance, GO AROUND.
Well, speaking for myself, and off the top of my head, fly the full standard missed approach. Then follow lost comm proceedures. Squawk 7600. This is pretty rare in this day and age, and I would expect any controller to add a buffer of extra separation around your flight. We would expect you to land at the nearest suitable aerodrome, probably either the one you've just overshot from, or a nearby alternate. In a radar environment you will be watched very closely and the controllers will be keeping many options open concerning other traffic, until well after it seems obvious what you're going to do.
Keep transmitting your intentions blind from time to time, using the frequency appropriate for the airspace you are in.
If you can use a phone in flight, please do so. Phone the tower, or the approach control centre serving that aerodrome. Many's the time I've given a landing clearance on the phone, but not usually to commercial airliners. The radios just don't fail that often. If they have, we will assume you are quite likely to have additional electronics problems, and are also likely to transmit blind to you, your position, what we think you are likely to do (and that it's ok to do so) the weather etc, and accord you the appropriate priority.
Keep transmitting your intentions blind from time to time, using the frequency appropriate for the airspace you are in.
If you can use a phone in flight, please do so. Phone the tower, or the approach control centre serving that aerodrome. Many's the time I've given a landing clearance on the phone, but not usually to commercial airliners. The radios just don't fail that often. If they have, we will assume you are quite likely to have additional electronics problems, and are also likely to transmit blind to you, your position, what we think you are likely to do (and that it's ok to do so) the weather etc, and accord you the appropriate priority.
