Land or Go Around?
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Land or Go Around?
2 mile final, rwy in sight, a big jet. You´re on Tower frequency, call for clearance, nothing, no response whatsoever, nothing on the radio...land or go around?
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Call ground on box2 as he's probably sitting next to the tower guy, to ask what is happening, if no luck then go around, if it's sorted then thats a few hundred quids worth of fuel saved.
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Keep calling for clearance for as long as you can... but keep a lookout... Just don't touch that runway without clearance... that'll wake the tower up... J/K
A few years ago a 732 had to do a low fly by at an airport somewhere here to get the airport to realize that there was a flight coming in...
A few years ago a 732 had to do a low fly by at an airport somewhere here to get the airport to realize that there was a flight coming in...
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right, thanks guys, but can´t this be considered a lost comm scenario, where the most appropriate thing to do would be to land and terminate the flight?
What if you go around and can´t establish comm afterwards, isn´t that much bigger of a problem?
Trying other frequencies and looking for light signals is completely valid, and should be done, but if you´re on a 2 mile final, don´t u think squawking 7600 and landing is appropriate as well?
What if you go around and can´t establish comm afterwards, isn´t that much bigger of a problem?
Trying other frequencies and looking for light signals is completely valid, and should be done, but if you´re on a 2 mile final, don´t u think squawking 7600 and landing is appropriate as well?
Local field; nothing going on except your flight; land it.
Solve the crap later. By definition you're perhaps wrong, but that Cessna 152 you could land as well without clearance on some strips, no?
Its only to cover your ass in case something might go wrong.
If you're sure the runway is yours, why don't take it?
You'd even have the backup of the local green party..
LHR? would't try it..
CDG? you would have gotten the clearance already while being number 3 on 9 miles final.. what's the difference in this case?
Solve the crap later. By definition you're perhaps wrong, but that Cessna 152 you could land as well without clearance on some strips, no?
Its only to cover your ass in case something might go wrong.
If you're sure the runway is yours, why don't take it?
You'd even have the backup of the local green party..
LHR? would't try it..
CDG? you would have gotten the clearance already while being number 3 on 9 miles final.. what's the difference in this case?
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In that phase of flight there is no time to figure out if comms are lost or not. Fly the published missed approach procedure, if necessary enter a hold and try to solve the problem. Haste makes waste.
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Actually... just read the damn books...
Under comms fail, it says under VMC (2 mile final & runway in sight? Hmmm)... land at nearest suitable airport... which is the runway you're heading to...
If in IMC, your ETA would be revised to within 30 mins anyways of your actual landing time if you lost comms on a 2 mile final...
Don't forget to "lookout for visual signals"
But at the same time, of equal importance, it states one should try and contact the other ATC facilities or other aircraft... Failing that, transmit blind...
The ATC will upon realising there's a comms fail try to raise you on the radio, if no response from you, they'll try and get other aircraft (if any), or assume you will take the standard procedures... which, in VMC, you'll land since you're on approach and try to get the runway to be yours and clear the traffic away from you.
If you're within the airport traffic, they will assume you'll land...
You can do either... but if in IMC, I'd go around first... if you're in radar coverage area, it's best to give them notice that you think you're on lost comms...
Wouldn't there be a couple of considerations determining which action the pilot would take? Did U contact Tower beforehand? Are you aware of any traffic? Was the previous ATC you contacted that handed you off to the tower a dedicated terminal area ATCS for the airport, or an area control? Blablablabla...
Bugger it's 2am and I need some sleep instead of babbling rubbish here...
Under comms fail, it says under VMC (2 mile final & runway in sight? Hmmm)... land at nearest suitable airport... which is the runway you're heading to...
If in IMC, your ETA would be revised to within 30 mins anyways of your actual landing time if you lost comms on a 2 mile final...
Don't forget to "lookout for visual signals"
But at the same time, of equal importance, it states one should try and contact the other ATC facilities or other aircraft... Failing that, transmit blind...
The ATC will upon realising there's a comms fail try to raise you on the radio, if no response from you, they'll try and get other aircraft (if any), or assume you will take the standard procedures... which, in VMC, you'll land since you're on approach and try to get the runway to be yours and clear the traffic away from you.
If you're within the airport traffic, they will assume you'll land...
You can do either... but if in IMC, I'd go around first... if you're in radar coverage area, it's best to give them notice that you think you're on lost comms...
Wouldn't there be a couple of considerations determining which action the pilot would take? Did U contact Tower beforehand? Are you aware of any traffic? Was the previous ATC you contacted that handed you off to the tower a dedicated terminal area ATCS for the airport, or an area control? Blablablabla...
Bugger it's 2am and I need some sleep instead of babbling rubbish here...
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How much fuel have you got? That usually decides many things. Weather below minimums at 1000 feet? How much fuel have you got? That'll be the biggest decider. The books are good, great in fact, but thinking on your feet and making the decisions is why they pay you the big bucks. At two miles and having listened to the RT for the last few minutes will build up your SA. In my 30 years flying, the only reason I didn't get a landing clearance on short final was due to a comms failure on tower's behalf. I landed on all occasions and was right every time. However, I still treat every occasion as a individual occurance and make my decision on the facts of the day.
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No brainer...
Definitely switch to the ground control frequency...talk to the ground controller (who is probably right next to the local controller)...tell him what's going on, THEN LAND ON THE PARALLEL TAXIWAY. THAT'LL TEACH 'EM!!!
PantLoad
PantLoad
can´t this be considered a lost comm scenario, where the most appropriate thing to do would be to land and terminate the flight?
The lost comm procedure is designed to make sure you give as much notice as possible before you make your approach, so ATC can get everybody out of the way. Making a snap decision to land after not getting a response from the tower 60 seconds to touchdown doesn't achieve that.
By all means try SMC, look for visual signals, but definitely then Go Round if not positive clearance to land.
Think of it another way: IF you ran into somebody on the runway, what would you say to the judge?
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good point captain, but if you´ve been cleared for an approach to a rwy you´re not supposed to run into any vehicles or anything, and if fuel and wx is a concern a go around may also take you to the judge´s office. Of course there´s not an absolute answer here, every scenario should be analyzed if possible, but my initial post calls for a 2 mile final no response call, which could be due to a partial and temporary problem, a stuck mike or something easily solved, or a major comm loss. I think that if you still hear the tower freq. that´s once thing, but if everything´s complete silence and you go around you´re now back in the air after some time flying, going to an alternate which might be busy as well, possibly in a non radar environment, etc etc...I am not leaning toward landing, but just expressing that a go around might complicate things as well.
Thank you for all of your comments. It´s good to know how you guys think !!
A great pleasure,
SW.
A lost comm scenario can happen any time...and consideration is given to a failure with an airport in sight...and the idea behind that is "get out of the system, see and avoid"
Thank you for all of your comments. It´s good to know how you guys think !!
A great pleasure,
SW.
A lost comm scenario can happen any time...and consideration is given to a failure with an airport in sight...and the idea behind that is "get out of the system, see and avoid"
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My take is at two miles you have little time, and its not the place to be engaged in trouble shooting (one minute to touchdown max - aviate, navigate, communicate etc), particularly if IMC. Go round and establish cause ie is it really lost coms, finger trouble, previous controller gave wrong freq and you failed for whatever reason to pick it up - an endless list of reasons could be the cause. Have been caught out by the fact that the volume had been turned down.
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Well, lets see...this very same scenario happened to me about two years ago at Cairo, poor visibility due to rising sand, 48 minutes holding (had stacks of fuel, so no problem...lots of other airplanes diverted however), final vectors, cleared for approach, call the tower.
Nothing.
Called the tower again.
Nothing.
Now two miles final in our big three engine jet, called Cairo Ground.
Ground says....'LN202, cleared to land.'
Between the time that the approach controller had released us to call the tower, and we called, a backhoe had sliced through a big electrical cable, thereby failing all the tower frequencies, the ILS, the NDB, the VOR and much of the airport lighting...leaving only ground control on a standby frequency, active.
The ground controller told me it was battery powered.
Approaching the parking bay, the ground controller wanted to know how we found the airport, as all the nav aids were unserviceable.
'Honeywell HT9100 GPS' I told him.
Superb units these, supremely accurate.
IFR stand-alone approved, enroute, terminal, approach.
Very handy to have.
Nothing.
Called the tower again.
Nothing.
Now two miles final in our big three engine jet, called Cairo Ground.
Ground says....'LN202, cleared to land.'
Between the time that the approach controller had released us to call the tower, and we called, a backhoe had sliced through a big electrical cable, thereby failing all the tower frequencies, the ILS, the NDB, the VOR and much of the airport lighting...leaving only ground control on a standby frequency, active.
The ground controller told me it was battery powered.
Approaching the parking bay, the ground controller wanted to know how we found the airport, as all the nav aids were unserviceable.
'Honeywell HT9100 GPS' I told him.
Superb units these, supremely accurate.
IFR stand-alone approved, enroute, terminal, approach.
Very handy to have.
Last edited by 411A; 6th Jul 2007 at 06:48.
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Doc 44.44 must be able to answer this.
Perhaps this question should be moved to the controllers section.
But making the landing without clearance, either verbal or visual, calls for some serious explaining in court...
Perhaps this question should be moved to the controllers section.
But making the landing without clearance, either verbal or visual, calls for some serious explaining in court...
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Had this very scenario just a couple of months ago at DH +200'
Have NHP call tower on box 2.
Cleared then land ( in our case )
No contact then mins followed by standard miss
No clearance then no land, no brainer in UK
Have NHP call tower on box 2.
Cleared then land ( in our case )
No contact then mins followed by standard miss
No clearance then no land, no brainer in UK
good point captain, but if you´ve been cleared for an approach to a rwy you´re not supposed to run into any vehicles or anything,
Also we are assuming here that the aircraft is on final for Frankfurt, say, and not Brussels?