catplaystation,

270kts @ Flap 5 sounds a little more than a 10% exceedence in my book. The report says PNF noticed this albeit he was unsure about the pitch attitude.

I quite concur with you that it would be possible to get in off this approach without compromising SAC at 500RA. It looks like they were at FL100 about 20 out.

Anyone coming into CWL from the south knows that you're often left high until north of EGTE. On this particular VMC occasion, closely followed by a Britannia 76, we were both left 9000ft above profile at ~FL150 with 25 to run.

When asked whether he'd continue to prefer vectors, the 76 driver quipped

"Yeah....via BHX."

Back at 210kts, drop the gear, speedbrake out, accelerate to 300kts, V/S ~5-6000ft/min, level off and get the flaps out and both of us got in no drama whatsoever.

Unusual. Not pleasant.

But no need for any histrionics.

SR71

270kts @ Flap 5 sounds a little more than a 10% exceedence in my book

Not sure what book you're reading, but the placard max speed for flaps 1,2 and 5 on a 737-800 is 250kts. so 270kts would acctually be an exceedance of 8% if you're being picky ;)

Just curious as to whether any of the punters down the back, or cabin crew even, noticed an odd approach angle and if any of them said something to airport/airline officials ?

I guess the cabin crew were also under the impression of "keep a low profile - say nothing".......

My apologies.

Forgot it was a 738.

:\

In SR71's defence, the book he is reading is probably the 737 Classic POH - Flap 5 VFE is 225 knots so 270kts = 20% exceedance.

(oops he beat me to it)

Anyway, the fact that one can pull off an eventually stablised approach from 20nm @ 10000' is not really the issue - the techniques SR71 describes are quite legitimate (although probably only suitable in relatively quiet airspace where some flexibility exists with speed and descent rates) - the fact is the chap in question didn't use valid techniques, and exceeded the operating envelope of his aircraft.

I do NOT call that 'good' flying. Anyone can plonk an aeroplane on the TDZ of a runway, at whatever speed and flap setting you happen to have; that's not flying, it's just steering.

Flying which would be worthy of our admiration would be to land with the aircraft correctly configured, at the right speed, with the landing performance calculated and with the second crewmember adequately 'in the loop' to monitor the flying pilot, and all this from a 'non-standard' profile. None of those things happened in this example.

A useful mnemonic (sp?) I was taught (as I recall) for FO/PNF as an 'intervention strategy' (and sometimes you do need a 'strategy') is to have a 'PACT' in the cockpit.

P - Probe: "Do we need to start slowing down soon?"
A - Advise: "I think we should slow down now"
C - Correct: "We're too fast. We have to slow down NOW."
T - Take Control

...so the Captain/PF is given ample opportunity to explain/re-brief/correct his actions throughout, and bring the crew back into the comfort zone.

Of course, sometimes it'd be prudent to leap in at stage 2, or even 3, but RARELY straight in at 4 unless you've tried at least 2 of the earlier stages.

Oh my, this thread is getting scarier and scarier. Boys, I would just stop talking now if I were you and save the cowboy stuff for the airshows !

Well, I'll be!...this thread is getting stupider and stupider!

Struth!...you guys should have been around when I started flying on Gooney birds with all the WW2 guys off Spits, Hurricanes,B25s etc.

Those guys could toss the Dc3 around like a rag doll and the SLF would be none the wiser!...and neither was I!

That was a sight to be seen, and what a lot it taught me for the remainder of my SUCCESSFUL 40 year career!

What are you?...a bunch of wimps?

But a 10% increase in airspeed does not equate to a 10% increase in stress loads, does it?

In all the discussion of the "right and wrong" of what took place, I think I am getting the impression that there is no widely accepted procedure for safely recovering from "too high, too close" without resorting to go around.

There seem to be no guidelines as to what is recoverable without exceeding sensible parameters, and what is not.

Even the recommended general technique for max angle of descent profile is somewhat murky.

Then again, maybe I missed it and it went right over my head...too close, too fast this time!

Errrrr....

'Tower, request one right hand orbit to lose altitude' might work.

'Approach, request extra track miles to facilitate descent' could also.

Gentlemen(or ladies?) please try and listen. . . I am not,and I repeat not ,defending exceeding any limit by 8% (thanks Flyingsand!)but please please, let us stop fixating on (and I repeat) a relatively small exceedance on an aircraft that is 5 years old and fairly robustly constructed.Far more worrying is side-slipping (where is that in the Boeing flight-training manual?)and landing with Flap 10 by accident because you were too fast to deploy any more.Why do you think the flap load relief only works at normal landing flap settings? Probably because "relatively small exceedances"at the lower settings are not seen as a major problem by Mr Boeing.ManaAdaSystem & Unwise owl. .YES I am a "typical" RYR Captain (whatever that is meant to mean/imply) but I have worked in enough other companies to know that this could happen anywhere,its not for nothing that BA produced a lovely video I saw a number of years ago called something like"how F/O Nigel reacts in rushed approaches"; some "great"acting,laugh-a-minute stuff!Oh and jonseagull, what is your objection to using the aircrafts capability? assuming the crew are aware/ WX suitable/cabin prepared etc,I believe using (and I repeat for the LAST time NOT exceeding )the aircraft's capability should be within the remit of any properly trained/current/motivated aviator.Your nannying fixation on one aspect of a wholly shabby performance only type-casts some of you as FR bashers or wannabees.

"Far more worrying is side-slipping"

Why is this more worrying?

I freely admit that I have never flown a Boeing but most other aircraft that I have ever flown (including the DC-10) have been wonderful wing-down-techinque aeroplanes in a strong crosswind.

Now then, when I have a lot of left aileron and a lot of right rudder on at the same time when I am landing in a 35 knot crosswind, are you telling me that this is overstressing the aircraft when all I am actually doing is a side-slip as recommended by the manufacturer?

I do appreciate that the 738 might not be a great wing-down aircraft becauase of its geometry but does Boeing actually forbid wing-down technique?

JW411 I was actually thinking more in terms of a 270kt bootful of rudder effort,methinks more sideload than a bit of crabbing before landing.Landing a 738 with much bank angle does nasty things to the trailing edge flaps when they hit the R/W first(so Boeing reckons).

Would the crew not have got a "Too Low Flaps" EGPS warning if trying to land with flaps 10?

Greek God,yes;you can of course silence it if,in the heat of the moment,you have the mental capacity as a maxed-out F/O to reach down and flip OFF a guarded switch.It is of course a pretty big hint that you didn't plan,and therefore ideally shouldn't be doing,that which is giving you the verbal aggro!Unfortunately they didn't take the hint.

No, just professional pilots !!

Further to the EGPWS warning would they also not have got a configuration warning horn below 800ft ? Which cannot be cancelled.

Well, I've only just picked up on this thread but what a corker ! The anger it's provoked in some is fascinating. I hope that airlines will use this example for years to come in their pilot crm training, after all that's how we learn - by studying the most appalling and difficult examples. I've seen similar examples from airlines other than Ryanair, so they don't stand alone here.

The unfortunate soul in the RHS of this one went as far as he dare and short of getting physical with the capt, was scuppered. If someone is hell-bent on screwing it up, it's a difficult job to get him to accept it and fall back in line or relinquish control, especially when happening in real time. I hope that both the f/o and his colleagues now have a game plan for the future in that, if flight data monitoring exists and you've been faced with an example such as this, then don't fly another sector without speeking to your fleet manager / duty manager, as you can back up what you say with FDM proof. If your management are unreasonable, then this isn't the airline for you and your sense of self preservation will lead you away, regardless of your training loans.

I'm LHS flying into Greek islands ( no ILS's ) at night, possibly thunderstorms, tired from summer roster disruption, being told not to carry too much fuel etc., so before anyone has a go at me, I've seen most things and know what pressure is. The capt. who flew the flight in question shouldn't operate for any airline in my opinon. I'm pleased he's no longer in Ryanair, although it concerns me not, as I refuse to passenger with them anyway.

It is reassuring to know that Ryanair doesn't have a monopoly on ar*eholes. Reading this thread and some of the comments is adequate proof that there are still plenty out there.

"Far more worrying is side-slipping"

Why is this more worrying?


Significant intake disruption 'might' lead to compressor stall.

Examples around for example I recall the early 747's (think GE engine varients but cant remember), were vulnerable during strong x-wind take offs. CFM 56 is much less suseptable but guess its possible.

I would be concerned about this problem during a significant side slip (...as opposed to forward slip).

YM.

Just look at American Airlines MD-80/SouthWest Airlines 737 incidents.The roles and actions of both F/O,S,piss poor at best.A physical confrontation in the cockpit,is definitly not the way to go.The company I work for has tried in scenario format to try and resolve this issue of "taking command"from a rouge pilot.For as many people involved in the disscussion ,there are as many ideas and ways to deal with it.I still dont think weve got it right!!! :(

OOps! Sorry about not knowing that it's amnual throttle! Look at it this way. There were any number of ways the F/O could have stopped this cowboy many of which have been aired already.

However, even IF he didn't have the balls to do anything about it in the air, there is no excuse for not sorting out our John Wayne once they got on the ground.

Neither pilot should be alowed fly any public transport aircraft again - not for the approach which was appalling, but for the lack of backbone afterwards. Has the spineless IAA done anything to affect their licencing status? Of course not.

That makes two of us then, and all friends and relations, no doubt

The reason we get incidents like this is that manual raw data flying is no longer compulsory.Many pilots engage the AP at 1000' and disengage it again on final approach at 500'.Some pilots today can not fly their airplane without being vectored for an ILS approach with AP and FD on.Its pitiful but so true.
The airline culture that breeds such a pilot is really to blame,not the pilot himself.

With all the respect I can muster

B*llocks.

His handling has got nothing to do with it. Its all about judgment, and he lacked it on this occasion.

Many/most airlines promote autoflight particularly in bad weather, busy airspace etc.

Most of us manage to muddle through without endangering passengers crew and the aircraft.

If we did get caught out and screwed up, I dare to say most of us would not try and cover it up.

You can't in BA and many others anyway.

Its called SESMA

I've also heard that if it is who people think it is, it was totally in character.

Having marriage problems ? Leave the plane in the A/P and perform a auto-landing ! It is safer !

Arans.

"The airline culture that breeds such a pilot is really to blame,not the pilot himself"

Then the airline should receive the credit for the 99.9% of the rest of us who are safe. No airline to blame here. That type of attitude rests with the individuals themselves. A good SOP may show those individuals for what they are, but it won't change them.

The captain's head, for whatever reason, was somewhere else entirely. The FO, being the back up system for exactly this kind of situation, failed miserably.
When you stick 700hr guys in the right seat, this is exactly what you'll get.
What the f$*% do you think you're gonna get for a £19 ticket?

Normal Nigel,
With all due respect,your remark about judgement tells only half the story.When the pilot failed to stabilize by 500,then his decision not to pull up shows poor judgement.However,his inability to recover from being high or fast,or both,is more indicative of his inability to fly the plane(or perhaps his mental state at the time we dont know).A commercial jet of this size is quite recoverable at 10nm at 300 knots if you know what to do and act quickly.I dont of course recommend such a procedure on a regular basis but you must know what to do when you find yourself in such a position.

Incidents like this are symptomatic of the malaise in the system,not the individual.SOP overkill,not enough sim and line time devoted to the fundamentals,and a general misunderstanding of the true nature of crm by many airlines;all these factors are changing our industry for the worse and its very sad.

Today,a pilot may have logged 1500 hours on his shiny new B737 but he is quite likely never to have:
a)flown an ILS on raw data down to minimums for real
b)flown a traditional visual approach(In the FAR EAST they are banned)
c)been shown or instructed on how to recover safely from a hot/high approach
d)been shown or instructed how to fly his airplane based solely on attitude and thrust settings
e)flown a manual FD off,autothrottle off departure
f)flown a bad weather circling approach with a simulated AP failure

If they cant do it as PF,then they sure as hell cant act as PM when the left seat pilot does it.

Err......

.......hum - generalising there a little IMHO. This one would take 3nm approx LEVEL ATTITUDE to bring the speed back from 300 to 250 big ones (depending on the weight) leaving you at 7 miles, 900 feet above the profile and only just able to ask for flap. Oh and the FR OFDM stores any flap extension above 230kts.

Recoverable at 10nm at 300kts? Can only think you were referring to a track mileage extension in yr recovery procedure!

Yes it is and the recovery technique is called a go-around if I'm not very much mistaken. Take the cowboy hat off Rananim.

Vfenext,
Listen I understand where you're coming from believe me.I would never advocate reckless or carefree flying but a pilot must know what his aircraft is capable of;he must also know his own limitations.A 737 decelerating from 300k at 10 nms out at no higher than 1800' agl and with NO tailwind is definitely a recoverable situation.Now if a pilot feels in his best judgement that it is not recoverable,then he must make his own decision and that is perfectly understandable.I also totally understand why some airlines with Big Brother watching would not wish to pursue such an approach.BUT PLEASE dont tell me its not possible to do and do in a safe and controlled manner,because it is...

@Rananim
 

Maybe it is possible.

But the question which had been raised is, what to do if it doesn't work out....?

For my opinion, the prescribed approach shouldn't be the answer.

regards

"A commercial jet of this size is quite recoverable at 10nm at 300 knots if you know what to do and act quickly. I don't of course recommend such a procedure on a regular basis but you must know what to do when you find yourself in such a position."

This thread has drifted away from the original title, and has now entered a more technical phase. (I'm sure the FR bashing has blown itself out, thankfully.)
I would thus like to respond to the above, and a couple of later points made by Ranamin.

"...but you must know what to do when ....."

Rule number 1. DO NOT get yourself in this position, NOR ALLOW yourself to be sucked into it by outside influences. God forbid ATC would do it to you. There in lies the skill; keeping away from such 'positions"!!!

Regarding the other points. I can agree that some piloting skills have been eroded in recent years, but in many airlines manual handling is encouraged when & where appropriate. (Deciding those parameters is also a skill, and with a SID at 3000' in London TMA on a stormy night is not a good idea). In the past (not necessarily good old days) the skills you mentioned were quite often required. That was because the a/c were very unsophisticated and the ATC infra-structure also. A B737-200 with only 1 DME and a 60's basic A/P & no A/T was a good learning machine around the Greek islands on a dark s$%ty night. You had to do it, and we were taught to do it 'on site'.
When I graduated onto the wizz bang glass cockpit & 80's autopilot, life became more relaxed, but you could always switch it off. However, the skill requirement changed slightly. If I ever offered the F/O the chance to follow suit, some tried and enjoyed it, others declined and missed the fun.
However, when I was doing conversion training, in the sim, I always tried to find time to cover the very manoeuvres you mentioned in a) - f).
A) B) D) & E) can be shown on the a/c, and I often still encourage them. The others are best left to the sim, but there is precious little time for anything extra there.

I still believe that in todays modern enviroment of higher tech a/c and infrastructure, it is best to learn how to avoid some of these areas, than to dilute, (by thinking you get away with it), the good self preserving prickly back of the neck hairs feeling that has saved many of us.

By the way: The demonstrated figure for 300 -210 kts + speed brake is 7nm. A further 3nm to get to gear down F15 would leave you at 1800' over the threshold. I suppose you could throw the gear out at 250kts and do a 1:1 descent at F40. It might work, but HOW DO YOU KNOW? Have you really done this, and if so, how did you get yourself into that position? You say it is not recommended on a regular basis. I would go further and say NEVER. (Surely you didn't spend time in the sim trying this crazy stunt? and if you did, WHY?)

The plot has most definitely been lost guys. Talking about recovery from 10nm at 300kts - this is a commercial airliner with paying passengers on board, so let's get out of test pilot thinking, eh?

I do believe that this is a good case for a crm type discussion and not a good deal else. To any of us who do this for a living, it's painfully obvious to see that a go around was the only option or ask for extra track miles before it gets to that stage. To those who keep blaming the f/o, I'd be interested to know what you fly and how long you've been doing it. For an inexperienced pilot to deal with this in real time is a classic crm dilemma - how far do you let it go ? This type of problem has been around since the very beginning of 2 crew operations with an experience gradient on the flight deck. Maybe the f/o concerned is a complete muppet but then I wasn't there and I don't know him.

We all get checked on our flying ability in the sim and a limited amount of crm, mostly relating to 'stock' scenarios. How anyone reacts when it goes wrong for real is a different matter. Whilst some intervene asap, others sit on their hands and may well do so until the self preservation alarm bell starts ringing.

300kts at 10nms !!!! Oh dear.....

300kts on 10nm final is quite doable (on a 737), I have done it not too long ago.
Although not my favourite passtime, I do like a bit of flying once in a while....especially when the F/O dares you...
and for all those people that now say I'm unprofessional, on the contrary my friends, I chose this profession for the flying not for the tea and biscuits, so try and keep it safe.
If not certain of a stable approach at 500' then go around.
Take the blame and correct it for your next endeavour.
But for all these Willy Wonka's that never do anything remotely close to real flying, keep reading pprune in your 4x4 office, since there is no sense of reality

Good point. I suppose most things are possible on Flight Sim or at least have no consequences.

Shaka Zulu:

First I have to ask if your pseudonym is indicative of a macho philosophy; and secondly, how far in your cheek was your tongue when making your comment?

I can't believe you are serious.

You let your F/O DARE you into such a manoeuvre??!! If it was a freighter in the darkest bundu, then perhaps it's not a hanging offence, but with a cabin full of pax and crew it has to be a questionable action. If you want to fly for fun then the place to do it is at the local club. There you can turn yourself inside out to your heart's content, as I do. Any passenger will be there for the thrill as well, but not the fare paying punter down the back of their flying gin palace.

The decision of a stable approach at 500' is made at 1000'. Most airlines in this day and age would take a grim view of 600kgs of fuel and 15 minutes of time being wasted due to such dramatics. And further, what are you teaching the future commanders by such action. I know I'm a hero & wizz bang jet jockey, I don't need to keep proving it.

The most relaxed training captain and superb operator I ever flew with was an ex-Red Arrow from the old days. Nowt to prove with a C.V like that. Everytrhing to lose if he went gungho.

Shaka
Which model 73 are you talking about?

I simply do not believe that a CFM idling at 30+ % NF can do this.

Arkroyal:

Don't encourage him: but I did forget to include in my prognosis that I was talking of an NG. However, even a classic would be hard pushed. Perhaps he was talking of an old -200 with the Thrust Reversers disconnected from the squat switch; but then again not, as he said it was controllable. Ha!