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Roger
You're correct. He made a giant idiot of himself by behaving so stupidly, bust a shed load of rules and limits and should have known much better. He was on his last day and wound himself in too deep trying to make it memorable. Stupid stupid stupid. Worse he tried to cover it up (after such stupidity it's no wonder!) All I'm saying is I've seen folk who DID wrap the a/c round a hill or similar , killing hundreds, have an easier time on pprune than this clot! Give the poor geezer a break. He fu*ked up but he got away with it. Hope he learn't something tho'. |
Most people who wrap themselves around a mountain don't get the chance to speak up for themselves. This Captain should be banned from flying commercially, anywhere in the world. He IS an accident waiting to happen.
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Hope never to f**k up quite as dramatically as this gent but if this is the way the pilot community and more specifically the pprune community are going to disect ASR's this whole website is taking one big leap backwards in flight safety.
It's supposed to be a rumour site not a kangaroo court. Leave this sort of "Holier than thou" clap trap to the bar when the parking brake is well and truly on don't put this sort of rubbish down on print. |
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the whole point of this thread is that there was no ASR filed by the Captain, and that there was no tech log entry. He was caught by ATC reviewing radar plots. Being suckered into an approach like this and then continuing when all the warning signs are there to go-around can be debated until the cows come home. The problem is that the individual brushed it all under the carpet and flew an aircraft thats airworthiness was in doubt. That is the decision that borders on criminal.
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Bacardi
You say he IS an accident waiting to happen How do you know that? Are you psychic? Maybe he learnt his lesson:rolleyes: |
Luckily most pilots do dissect these reports when presented with them. Hopefully some learn from them.
However regarding: Vfe, stabilised approaches and landing speed, I think most pilot's jaws would just drop when they look at this report (in particular that green line showing the pitch angle). Like me they would have picked up these essentials fairly early on at the PPL stage and somehow managed to hold on to them for good. These basic limits may get get temporarily exceeded for a few seconds or degrees but never in such a deliberate or persistent fashion. For those of you who have not bothered to read the report it's here: http://www.aaiu.ie/AAIUviewitem.asp?...g=ENG&loc=1652 This guy f**ked up royally in a multitude of areas and he is lucky to still have his license. That's about it. Just don't say "ah sure it doesn't matter, better luck next time" and expect to get an easy ride here. A lot of people on this forum are actually pilots. |
Afternoon chaps,
Well since this thread seems to have run it's course, here is a question from a lowly PPL on jet transport category aircraft handling..... Looking at the report it is clear that some mighty large control inputs were made (kind of like a kay-san I witnessed from the flight deck of a C130 one time.....Ho hum!!) Anyway, one technique I was taught for short field/emergency landings was the forward slip and jolly fun it was too practising whilst cicuit bashing in the good ol' 152, so my question is; is it possible/desireable to forward slip an aircraft of this category? If so, would this be preferable to loose the required height rather than the large (and impressive!?!) pitch inputs evident from the report? (P.S. Before anyone mentions it, the aircraft should not have been in that position in the first place I know I know I know) Ta |
brain fade I am assuming he will carry on down in Oz, that's all.
Having worked for FR, I know that a very high percentage of their crews are well trained and good aviators. Those with low hours need to start somewhere but I'm starting to worry about the overall level of experience in the flightdeck and the fact that not one, but two crew members can brush an incident like this under the carpet and hope they don't get caught ! It's beyond belief really. |
Most preferable in a C152 feet dry. But I guess any FI will tell you that. A 737-800 - don't know if it's preferable but anything is better than those pitch inputs on that graph unless you are dodging rockets.
You're right on the other point, this thread has run it's course and has become a right royal pissing contest with much participation from me! Ta. The pilots here know what is important about this case. The wannabees here will no doubt find out in due course. - Roger |
An incident not an accident Read the report. It specifically says: "It was fortuitous that the landing was carried out safely." The word 'fortuitous' doesn't mean 'fortunate'. It means 'accidental, by chance, without apparent cause'. In simpler terms - this aeroplane landed safely by chance, not as the result of any airmanship skills. |
Lemme get this straight: so you´re expecting an F/O (intimitdated through a ´the show must go on´ company cuture) to say "gime the tech log old, ´cus I wanna ground this aircraft?" You gotta be kidding!!! Even in EZY (which is according to the Brits ´supposedly´ better than Ryanair) F/O´s rarely get to touch the Tech Log, let alone make an entry in it! I agree that preventing someone behaving erratically in the air could be close to impossible. On the ground is different. The F/O knew there was a defect with the aircraft and has a duty to report, first to the Captain. If the Captain ignores it, the duty to report does not go away. The F/O was prepared to get back in an aircraft he knew needed an inspection with cabin crew and passengers and a Captain who had recently shown scant disregard for SOP's, the AOM, CRM, airmanship etc. I'd be tempted to sack him also, he's not there for ballast! F/O's need to know what they would do to break the chain of events unfolding and if they're not prepared to act why do they bother turning up ?? |
Three things.
One. I know of another Captain who did something not a million miles different from this incident, who was also going through divorce. Two. Some aviation sayings which those of us who fly know are true! Never trade luck for skill. Never fly in the same cockpit with someone braver than you. Basic Flying Rules: Try to stay in the middle of the air. Do not go near the edges of it. The edges of the air can be recognized by the appearance of ground, buildings, sea, trees and interstellar space. It is much more difficult to fly there. Three. FO should have done more. Why didn't he put full power on and call a go-around, then they at least would have had the time to talk about it and it would have got a reaction. That FO didn't know that they were both going to survive had it run off the end of the runway. At the least, once on stand, he should have called the Chief Pilot at Ryanair and told him of the incident and ask the CP to fax him permission to return the aircraft, with passengers, without a tech inspection. |
Koncordski
Knickers! ;) I've never seen an aeroplane landed 'by chance', and neither have you. |
'Getting away with it', as you describe the FR Capt in question as having done, is sometimes as much to do with chance as skill.
The times I have made mistakes and 'got away with it' have often involved their fair share of luck, as well as the better exertions of my colleagues. Unfortunate circumstances for the chap concerned, important lesson learned for many. However, am I alone in cynicism when I see the old 'HF' angle being wheeled out (I was tired/stressed) only after the pilot was confronted with evidence of his reckless behaviour? The whole point of CHIRP/ASRs etc. in allowing 'blame-free' safety culture is that you 'fess up on your own initiative; waiting until you get caught then finding a CHIRP-style 'explanation' (excuse?) for your actions leaves me a little sore. Flying that aircraft again without proper maintenance action and a serious crew debrief was exceptionally reckless, stupid, and makes a mockery of those of us who try to promote our industry as 'professional'. Does FR have a JAR-compliant FDM scheme in place yet? I don't think they're mandatory until next year, but I stand to be corrected on that. |
No-one has answered my question yet...
Lets assume the FO did say: "I have control!" but the skipper didn't relinquish it. What would you do? Curiously. |
"Unless you Go Around I will raise the gear"
or just raise it and say "Go Around" |
To the tower; "Ryanair 123, Going round"
SF |
To be clear, I'm not a professional pilot, but I wonder (like SR71) what would happen if the FO tried to take control and the capt wouldn't relinquish.
There seems to be a devils alternative (a) two people doing different things - ie one trying to land, the other to GA and the risks that this involves and (b) an unstabilised approach and operation out of limits and the risks that this involves. I only hope that I'm never in the back if such a scenario plays out in the flight deck. |
Is'nt it simpler to say, earlier, when the approach path has gone, thousands feet below, 'why don't we perform a 360°?'
Fly safe DOVES |
Is'nt it simpler to say, earlier, when the approach path has gone, thousands feet below, 'why don't we perform a 360°?' |
Gulf Air tried it and ended up in the sea.
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But they were doing the 360 at 600 ft at night!
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How many flights did the aeroplane do before receiving the proper inspection for flap overspeed? Hundreds?
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I've never seen an aeroplane landed 'by chance', and neither have you I didn't say 'landed by chance'. I said 'landed SAFELY by chance'. That's not the same thing. This could all have gone very badly wrong, and it's a shame to see (some) of the (alleged) professionals here trying to excuse it. |
But they were doing the 360 at 600 ft at night! A GA is SOP. |
Konkordski
No ones trying to excuse such a crappy bit of flying. As long as we entrust piloting to humans there will be stuff like this. Thankfully not as frequently as in the past. EVERYone f**ks up from time to time. He'll have learned some things that he ought to have known that day. Good. The fact that he plonked it down and stopped it neatly after such a crappy approach wasn't luck despite what you say. Time to move on methinks.:rolleyes: |
I think what certain posters are trying to say Brain fade is that it is one thing executing such an approach wilfully and in contravention of certain protocols that we all ought to adhere to when operating commercially. If this approach was shot as an act of parting machismo/bravado - call it what you want - frankly, I'd be pretty pissed off, if as a fare-paying passenger, I got some aerobatics thrown into the equation as well. I didn't sign up for that when I clicked on www.expedia.com.
It is quite another if it was a temporary aberration. IMHO, the anecdotal and circumstantial evidence suggests a whiff of the former. I do agree though that landing at 180kts flaps 10 and doing a good job wasn't luck. After all, I'd hope that I put it down nicely at 210kts flaps up if circumstances demanded it and the runway was computed as long enough. Exceeding Vfe though is pretty silly. Departing subsequently without a check is inexcusable regardless of what interpretation you chose to attach to the actions of the crew prior to touchdown. :mad: |
SR-
Frankly, I agree. |
Two. Some aviation sayings which those of us who fly know are true! Never fly in the same cockpit with someone braver than you. Back to the thread. It seems the unfortunate co-joe had a classic Catch 22 situation. If he grabbed the tech log and refused to go he would most likely have gone the same way as the girl who refused to fly with a skipper, i.e. fired. If he did nothing there are those here ( from other operators )who want him fired. Its seems he found the best solution for the situation ( company ) he found himself in. Do nothing say nothing and for God's sake keep the show on the road. He still has his job. |
quote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But they were doing the 360 at 600 ft at night! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Its not SOP. A GA is SOP. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Then, to make maxalt happy, I can change my suggestion in: "Is'nt it simpler to say, earlier, when the approach path has gone, thousands feet below, (with MEAs, Wx, etc.; well ahead of the possible future GA) 'why don't we perform an holding pattern over...?" Fly safe DOVES |
The question of F/O interaction/intervention poses a pratical consideration.
1. F/O is brand new on line, a new boy on the block, not yet steeped in the experience of others, which would breed confidence to say something. Thus says nothing, or not enough, in timidity. I'm sure he said plenty, but to little effect. Looking death in the face is scary. 2. The F/O is senior with lots of confidence and is coming up for a command course. He speaks up, tries to take control, fails and grounds the a/c so disrupting the schedule. Is this being "not company minded" commercially? or showing good command initiative? In the cut throat world of these companies it would be a difficult thought process. 3. What of the F/O inbetween, semi-senior, perhaps less to lose and have the nouse to step in? I'm surprised someone hasn't opened the male/female F/O can of worms. Would one have behaved differently from the other? Either way, "shut up gringo." is sexless. Hm? |
The Beauvais guys finished their 360 turn at 200 feet 1/4 of a mile off centreline and the g/a calls for straight ahead climb.
When they commenced it, the nose was pointing at the tower so they buzzed it. |
This whole issue beggars belief. First, the Captain knew full well what he was doing and continued with the "get in itis". Second the F/O, no matter how junior, did little to stop it when he could simply have pushed the TOGA button. It would have been very difficult, even for this clown, to have landed an 800 with TOGA thrust!
There are two major issues arising from this. One, any F/O who isn't prepared to speak up when his own life is in danger doesn't deserve to be driving a pram let alone an aeroplane. They BOTH conspired to fly a possible unairworthy a/c back to STN and then allowed others to fly it for how long we dont know. Two, the invisible culture at FR certainly has contributed to this incident and to the 'hear no evil speak no evil" culture as espoused by our friend, the Hairy Smelly One. We all know that CD (who DID have the balls to question an asshole Capt) was sacked on the direct instructions of MOL five days after MD, chairman of the IALPA branch, was sacked. In those five days FR laid down the law to all its pilots that nobody was safe (CD was the Chief Pilot's daughter, remember?). The LHC culture was set in stone that day and nobody has had the balls to really challenge it since then, John Goss an honourable exception (but even he didn't win his case.) There are many hundreds of excellent pilots in Ryanair. However, the culture they are working in stinks to high heaven and the IAA is utterly spineless in doing anything about the situation. Don't think they don't know what's going on, as they certainly do. If any evidence of their attitude is required just see the letter in Flight from their PRO a few weeks ago. For example, didn the IAA investigate the issues leading to the MD and CD sackings? We all know they did, but they never reported? I wonder why? However at the end of the day all this can be stopped right away by the FR pilots. All they have to do is to report ALL issues to the company and copy same to the IAA. Even those jellyfish would be forced to act then. Isn't there a Freedom of Information Act in Ireland? |
Sidstar:
Manual flight in a boeing 737 is without autothrottle. Thus pushing TOGA only changes flightdirector mode. Sleeper |
A simple & effective way for a FO to pull a Captain back into safety is to make a RT call to ATC.
State: Flight no., Rank, - Objections to flight profile & Captains actions. This also serves as a recorded backup for later claims. Regards. |
It might be worth considering that the F/O didn't notice the 270KT with flap 5 exceedance.Rushed stressful approaches can max-out the most accomplished experienced operator and this guy,don't forget, was way outside his comfort zone and may well not have noticed an exceedance of only a few seconds in duration. I know most info is IRS derived but,if the sideslip was of any magnitude would the IAS be 100% accurate,maybe no exceedance was visible? Not trying to defend anybody but the poor guy was less likely to rock the boat and strand everyone in Skavsta for "only" a Cowboy approach followed by a flap 10 landing.When the monitoring system first came in pretty much everyone knew that a breaker behind the F/O marked WQAR meant watch your ass if you had a "hot" approach;they all have it now, but it amazes me they could have niavely believed they would get away with it if they knew the system was in-situ.Incidentally it is possible to land safely from where they started down without any abnormal control inputs/exceedances and respecting the RYR" approach-gate"( ie configured/spooled up/stable 500' VMC)it merely requires the application of the correct technique,( dirty&down not down &dirty or worse still half&half,which is what they tried).Seen it in the sim,wouldn't recommend it as a normal technique, but yes,they could have got in with no histrionics if they had applied a better method of flying the damn thing.I never met the Captain so have no idea if the boozing&fornicating(oh yes please!) accusations have any foundation, but those who pooh-pooh the broken marriage scenario obviously aint been there. . .yet.Command of an aircraft is not the place to be with a troubled mind ,but how many of us really call in sick if we are distracted/pissed off/ angry? and no I'm not just talking about RYR.Hell there are guys I have flown with who seemed to be having a crisis every day. . .what do you do? phone the CAA/IAA and ask to have them grounded/commited? I suspect most of us try and get through the day as pleasantly/normally as possible and leave it at that,unless it is someone we regularly fly with and it starts to grate.
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As a last resort,and I do mean a LAST /"you ain't gonna kill me you son of a bitch" resort, a call to ATC that you are going around/deviating to avoid a storm/whatever, is infinitely preferable to wrestling for control.I have only had to do it once in my career when one a**-hole(and that is believe me a kind description of the Captain concerned )wanted to fly straight through a line squall over the Pyrenees and ignored my pleas that I most certainly didn't want to ;it worked, but the ambience for the remainder of the flight and subsequent sector was in itself a pretty big flight safety hazard.I never filed a report,and neither did he,which kind of said it all.I'm happy to say that no F/O has felt the need to do the same to me,in spite of my best efforts on occasions. . .
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762
"less than perfect" my :mad: I think SR 71 has it right: Exceeding Vfe though is pretty silly. Departing subsequently without a check is inexcusable regardless of what interpretation you chose to attach to the actions of the crew prior to touchdown. :yuk: |
Everyone is crucifying them for leaving Skavsta having exceeded VFE for flap 5; as I've said before the Captain may have stretched/stressed the F/O (and possibly himself)so much on this sh*t approach that no one noticed what may have been a (relatively)short excursion over the limiting speed. They probably took time to enjoy the wonderful unaccustomed view afforded by 12° nose down AND a bit of side-slip.It must have looked quite gob-smacking.Boeing's are a bit tougher than come apart at the seams because of one exceedance 10% over a limit so lets stop fixating on them"intentionally leaving Skavsta/leaving the A/C for their fellow pilots "in an unairworthy state p l e a s e . . . Personally I would be more worried by the side-loads they generated on the fin by the Tiger Moth sideslip attempt.If CSA is a bit bent when I next fly it, guess I'll know why.
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captplaystation
Another FR Captain?
So 10% is hardly worth mentioning then? When would you make a log remark? 15%? 20%? Why have they put speed limits on the 737 in the first place when it's a "tough" aircraft? Some replies are almost amusing. Scary, but amusing. |
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