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-   -   Ryanair High Speed approach (https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/194788-ryanair-high-speed-approach.html)

Wing Commander Fowler 2nd Oct 2005 18:19

Thankyou bentover - proves MY point....... THEY won't be doing that again - not in Ryanair anyway! :ok:

bentover 2nd Oct 2005 19:33

If that's what you do then you've only yourself to blame.
If I receive a verbal from a changeover captain, it goes straight in the book. If I'm outstation or mid rotation,likewise.

Vizcaya 2nd Oct 2005 20:25


Beauvais..........Rome.................what have I been missing??
I heard a rumour of a rather interesting Go Around (very large bank angle) at Rome Ciampino about a week ago... Anybody knows more?

Speedpig 2nd Oct 2005 23:31

Forgive me if I'm being naive, but didn't ATC, either approach or tower, notice that this approach was unusual?
At a rate of descent of 6000 fpm it must surely have appeared out of the ordinary, let alone the high speed of the final and touch down.
Wouldn't ATC have called for some kind of enquiry...... asked the PF to call the director at least?
What about other traffic in the area?
I know that FR fly to "secondary" airfields but the Stockholm airspace must be pretty busy even so.

SP

jmc-man 3rd Oct 2005 00:11

Speedrig,

I think you'll find it WAS Air Traffic Control who initiated the investigation. There was probaly littel extra traffic in the area as the main Stockholm is a lot further North. The Tower controller might have thought it was a bit fast but compared to what..other RYR flights?

LHC's diatribe has contributed little. Conveniently for Ryanair, the fact that this incident was not reported by the crew meant there was little opportunity to get a full Flight Recorder Readout ( mentioned in the report) , nor a copy of the CVR. So what the investigators have is limited information, and a captains version of his " stress". And as for the mention of IALPA, wouldn't it be great to blame everything on RYR's greatest enemy.

The Investigators might have had a much better idea what really happened but couldn't put it in the report as they had no "tangible" evidence.

I have seen radar traces of RYR aircraft clocking along at 320knts, having been TOLD to fly at 250kts. I have had RYR aircraft flying behind me repeatedly told to reduce speed as they were catching me up on the approach by refusing to fly the speed given by ATC. Whether LHC, or anyone else cares about it or not, RYR have built up a reputation in UK and Irish ATC for rushing everywhere , often in contravention of ATC instructions. And don't get me started on their taxying antics on the ground.

With that sort of a reputation, this particular approach was probably not a real surprise to either of the crew on the day. It was probably passed of as , " that was a bit tight eh?" With no CVR to listen to, it's impossible to ever know what the first officer really said ( if anything). Naturally when it became an investigation , and having been abandoned by his captain to face the music, he would have made sure his story was good.

Hopefully RYR will see this as a warning. There is no room in this industry for cowboy antics.

Speedpig 3rd Oct 2005 00:34

Thanks jmc-man.
Reminds me of a flight I took on Southwest between KLAX and KPHX some time ago.
I was genuinely concerned about the handling of the aircraft on the ground and in the air. My letter of complaint earned me a Parker pen and the wisdom never to set foot on Southwest again.
From what I hear and read, many are doing the same with Ryanair.
Long live full service carriers.

SP

HI'er 3rd Oct 2005 02:09

Blame whom/what ever we like, but at the end of the day the Captain (and F/O) are the ones who bear the full responsibility for the safety of their passengers, the aircraft, and whatever else the aircraft might come into conflict with.

O'Leary's aggressive style of management is possibly affecting many of the crew who work for him.

How to stop it?
Have the civil aviation checkies start making their presence more obvious on the flight decks, and at airports.

CAT1 3rd Oct 2005 07:47

As an unbiased outsider I find it amazing that every time there is any sort of incident at Ryanair it immediately gets blamed on the management. Are flight crew brainwashed during training, thus losing free will? True, there is usually no smoke without fire, but how the actions of a captain having a brain fart can be blamed on anything except himself and his own circumstances is beyond me. Whether or not he was having marital problems is irrelevant: if he knew that whatever problems he was having would interfere with his duties as a pilot, he should not have been flying. He obviously was not worried about losing his job if he called in sick, as he was leaving anyway. The scariest part of this incident is the breakdown in CRM. If anything is to be lernt from it then this is the issue that needs addressing.

MPH 3rd Oct 2005 08:15

And, lets not forget the numerous amounts of incidents, accidents and fines, not only majors but, by cargo, business and charter airlines that have had all the above happen to them. Does this mean that management, personal problems and the like were also involved? The last hull lose in Canada by a major, was not the first for them, at landing long and running off the end of the runway. Does this give them a bad reputation? They have clocked millions of hours without incident or accident. Yes we are all not perfect but, we strive too! Give Fr a break!:hmm:

Wizofoz 3rd Oct 2005 08:41

CAT1 and MPH,

I have not been critical of the captain in this incident. He made a BIG mistake, as can any human being given the right (wrong?!?) set of circumstances.

What I do lay firmly at the feet of FR managment is the actions taken in the relative calm of the turn-around. The FO, clearly presented with an aircraft that required a maintenence inspection for the overspeed, a captain who admitted he was unfit to fly, and no doubt just a little shaken up himself- GOT BACK ON AND FLEW HOME.

Why? Refer previous posts. An FR FO, faced with a similar situation decided it was unsafe to fly, AND WAS SACKED ON THE ORDERS OF THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF FR MANAGMENT.

That is not error, that is not a mistake, that is a deliberate policy of intimidation, leading to a culture of "shut up and fly".

Faire d'income 3rd Oct 2005 14:23

Well said Wiz.

Just another point, there are very few of us in the industry that would continue an approach with 5000fpm rate of descent below 2000'.

For non-flyers this picture would look horrendous in the cockpit and all your instincts would be to forget it. Unless of course there is a greater force at work in this event that we ( non FR ) don't understand.

But of course according to Leo it's all Ialpa's fault.

unwiseowl 3rd Oct 2005 15:43

One reason why airline safety is much improved over the last few years is the widespread practice of analysing flight data traces for any non-standard events and interviewing the crew afterwards.

Do Ryanair have such a policy?

Barzha 3rd Oct 2005 16:58

Guys ! Are you talking about one crazy individual or Ryanair ? There are hundreds of pilots in RYR with different experience and background .
That insults me a little bit because I have not done such approaches and I have never been under any pressure to do something like that .

yotter 3rd Oct 2005 17:09

Rushed Approach - nothing new under the sun.
 
What about the famous story concerning the Heathrow controller and the BEA first officer. Apparently the captain was flying a manual approach and getting a bit overloaded.
ATC: " Bealine XYZ, are you OK for speed and height?"
FO;" Yes sir, we have an abundance of both!"
Not sure what the skipper said, or the flight manager if they landed off it.
Cheers, Y

Wizofoz 3rd Oct 2005 17:25

Barzha,

Please find one quote in this thread that insinuates all or even a great many Ryanair pilots are anything other that good and reputable pilots.

May I also suggest YOU refering to your former collegue as "Crazy" IS very insulting to someone who made a mistake.

What is being discussed here is the whether the cultural pressures put on FR pilots by their management is detrimantal to flight saftey, and I have pushed the personal barrow that Ryan FOs are under pressure to fly when they don't consider it safe, as one who didn't was made an example of.

Would you or any other incumbent at FR (Gone a bit quiet there Leo...) care to dis-agree?

mr lancaster 3rd Oct 2005 17:42

Well if all Ryanair pilots are crap. God bless British Airways and Virgin and all the other so called big names which is where some of the fo's and captains are going and don forget to bless the Airbus A340 pilot in Canada , obviously an Ex Ryanair pilot..

Wizofoz 3rd Oct 2005 17:58

Mr Lancaster,

I guess I'll have to say it to you too! Where is ANYONE saying Ryanair pilots are crap? Certain of them seem to have a problem with reading but NO-ONE is suggesting there is anything wrong with FR pilots!

What we are saying is put good pilots in a bad culture, and the results can be tragic.

essexboy 3rd Oct 2005 18:40

I am more than a little confused by some of the arguments being put across in this thread. It is my understanding that this incident was brought to light by the Ryanair management after analysis of the flight data. The ATC radar trace came after the investigation was initiated. So how is this the fault of the company.

As for the comments about CRM and safety practices within the company I have never heard such a load of bull in my life. As a Ryanair captain I speak with some authority when I say that the CRM and safety culture within the company is second to none. After this incident the 6 monthly CRM training package was developed to cover, not only this type of scenario but the very incident was discussed including a computer simulation of the event. Every pilot in the company had to watch it, discuss their thoughts about it and state what they would do in the same situation.

True there are aspects of the company management I would like to change but safety and CRM are not amongst them. In resent years at least 2 captains that I know about have been dismissed or had their contracts revoked due to poor CRM following reports from FOs.

If I ever did something stupid and I pray to God that it is not on this scale, I would hold my hands up and take it on the chin. Which ever company you are with you are going to get a roasting so you might as well demonstrate a little integrity.

CAT1 3rd Oct 2005 18:47

The general argument of the company bashers seems tobe that flying for FR makes you a cr*p pilot. How ridiculous. Grow up.

normal_nigel 3rd Oct 2005 21:40

I'm sure most Ryaniar pilots are as capable as anyone else (well, I do stress most).

However, this guy is a f*****g disgrace and thank God he is now on the other side of the world.

Look out those who have to fly to Aus.

He may have had a row with his wife and decide to nearly kill everyone in sight.

ps LHC, you are obviously some sort of deluded O'leary pillow biter.

the grim repa 3rd Oct 2005 22:21

a number of posts here concern ryanair pilot body as a whole or ryanair versus other airlines.the majority of pilots are great operators and top guys,unfortunately there is a culture building and a minority who are not good.whether ba,virgin or others have incidents,we don't care we are ryanair and we are responsible for our shop.

safety is not for accountants!

Nick NOTOC 3rd Oct 2005 23:11

Normal Nigel,

That a serious error was made does not need any more attention.
But that the pilot concerned gave us insight into the reasons behind his admitted poor airmanship deserves in my opinion a medal.
It's reactions like yours that make it damn difficult for people to come forward and admid their mistakes.
Maybe you should stop re-acting on the basis of your emotions and start using your brain so that you may now understand why pilots make serious errors.
I think all managers of airlines should read this incident report especially the hairy camel guy, maybe he can then understand that he is playing with safety in the way he treats his pilots.

normal_nigel 4th Oct 2005 09:10

Stop being so pompous

I'm afraid that this comes under the "more serious than an error of judgement" file.

And he didn't come forward and admit it. He got caught trying to cover it up.Or did he think that it was all normal on the ground in Sweden?

No tech log entry or report.

bacardi walla 4th Oct 2005 09:30

The bottom line to the whole issue is that the PIC should have elected to go around and make another approach. As to why he made such a bad decision remains to be seen.

One more serious mistake like this and no doubt the UK CAA will pay a visit to FR. EGSS is afterall FR's largest base and on English soil.

To all FR crews: FLY BY THE RULES & FLY SAFE

blackwatergoblin 4th Oct 2005 09:56

I'm confused here, this wasn't an error but wilfull chosen behaviour. This alleged "Commander" chose to ignore both visual and audible warnings from his machine as well as his F/O!

He didn't have the ball's to stick his hand's up on the day. The idiot only fessed up because he was forced to many months later when he was half way around the World.

I would not give credence to excuses formulated over many months by a coward who has run away from the scene and left a junior colleague to take some of the heat for his actions on that day.

BWG

VR-HFX 4th Oct 2005 10:20

Very sobering but a lot of pompous posts to add fuel to the fire.

I have been in this biz for over 30 years and have seen worse with my own eyes. Nearly lost my job for becoming intolerant of one poor performance that nearly dragged the flaps off a 707.

I would bet London to a Brick that while most of the FR guys would have less hours than their equivalents in major carriers they would actually have much much more experience.

For my money this was 'stunned mullet ' bad judgement but not worthy of the wrap that I see on this thread.

Stress and accumulated fatigue can do strange things to the best of aviators.

If anything I would be pushing a more forceful F/O culture. Its the single pilot IFR environment that will ultimately kill people.

normal_nigel 4th Oct 2005 10:39


I have been in this biz for over 30 years and have seen worse with my own eyes. Nearly lost my job for becoming intolerant of one poor performance that nearly dragged the flaps off a 707.
Here we go.

The "we did worse on the Trident/707 brigade".

Those days are over, old bean.


I would bet London to a Brick that while most of the FR guys would have less hours than their equivalents in major carriers they would actually have much much more experience.
Resulting in such actions??? If that is the result of such experience then I worry.

I doubt you would see many other FR pilots either acting in such a way. They must also be appalled by his actions that basically border on the criminal.

This guy is obviously a wild card that should never have been near the LHS.

One Step Beyond 4th Oct 2005 12:13


If anything I would be pushing a more forceful F/O culture
Unfortunately when an FO tried to be forceful in the past on a similar matter, she got fired. The nub of the matter is the obvious pressure put on pilots to keep the mouth shut and the show going on.
Needless to say, the FR apologists, specifically LHC, ignore the real questions and instead engage in bluff, bluster and spin. So what about it, Leo, lets have some backbone and answer the questions:
Do you think the FO’s decision to continue in a U/S aircraft with an unbalanced skipper was in any way influenced by CD’s dismissal? Would Ryanair or would Ryanair not have stood by the FO had he taken the correct course of action and insisted on both an engineering inspection of the flap and a new captain?

Not that I expect an answer; what LHC once again fails to understand is, if you truly believe in something, you will be prepared to answer any and every question presented to you. And anyway, what is there to fear from your inquisitors Leo? If Ryanair is indeed the Shangri-la you claim it to be, you will have no problem answering EVERY question put to you.

As for trying to incriminate IALPA in all this, utterly preposterous. A strong union to stand up for the FO refusing to fly back with that skipper would have been a massive extra layer of safety.

RogerIrrelevant69 4th Oct 2005 12:39

One Step Beyond,

You are right to expect no answer from LHC. He never answers questions. He merely issues statements on behalf of his hallowed employer Ryanair. Very long statements usually. The content of which, makes me suspect that he is actually part of their management. He comes across as that special type of manager that only understands one way communication. No discussion, just his increasingly boring and irritating version of events, laced with what he probably thinks is colourful prose.

Well if he is in Ryanair management it really doesn't say much for them. Good typist though.

Daysleeper 4th Oct 2005 13:41

Not that I'm supporting Ryanair but they are not alone in the non reporting of incidents.

AAIB UK DHC-8 Incident

This is just as bad and has had no publicity on PPRUNE.

Ranger One 4th Oct 2005 16:34

Interesting thread. I think what rankles with the 'shred his license' people is:

1. It wasn't just that he screwed up the approach, it's that he wilfully and in full knowledge of his situation, and against multiple warnings, persisted with an approach that was so screwed up it should have been thrown away long before.

That was bad. But for me the killer (and not many people have touched on this) is:

2. He knowingly and substantially exceeded airframe structural limits (Vfe) and did/said nothing - covered it up in fact.

Would *you* like to be the one suddenly facing assymetric flap at a critical stage of flight a few hundred hours after this guy had finished with the aircraft? This kind of behaviour has killed people before now.

R1

36050100 4th Oct 2005 17:14

I still maintain that the FO could have dealt with this by making a tech log entry regarding the flap speed exceedence at Skavsta.

If it's in the book, the FO can't be pressured into flying an aircraft that is tech, the worst accusation that could be levelled at him/her would be poor CRM and I'm sure that would sound especially rich !

hollywood285 4th Oct 2005 18:45

Anybody know what the Captains doing now??? flying smelly people round the outback in an Aztec I hope!!


The "we did worse on the Trident/707 brigade".
LOL!!! Was there not a similar incident back in the good old days werethe young F/O did not speak up to the captain killing all on board a trident??

Doug the Head 4th Oct 2005 23:48


I still maintain that the FO could have dealt with this by making a tech log entry regarding the flap speed exceedence at Skavsta.
Lemme get this straight: so you´re expecting an F/O (intimitdated through a ´the show must go on´ company cuture) to say "gime the tech log old, ´cus I wanna ground this aircraft?" You gotta be kidding!!! Even in EZY (which is according to the Brits ´supposedly´ better than Ryanair) F/O´s rarely get to touch the Tech Log, let alone make an entry in it! :rolleyes:

Nobody during the whole "second to none" CTC/EZY training course has explained me how to make an entry or how the tech log works in the first place! All I know about it is through self study and asking questions to sympathetic captains!

I can hardly see any F/O (no matter which company) grabbing a tech log and grounding an aircraft!

brain fade 5th Oct 2005 01:28

What a lot of horse sh*t

This chap was on his last day with Ryanair.

He decided to give it a bit of.....well ..........whatever he chose to.

He decided that he'd do as he pleased and ignore his FO.

So he did. Got a bit hot, a bit high and frightened his FO.

Now he's got to apologize and make up some **** 'cos he made a 'James Hunt' of it and his FO plainly filed an ASR.

Basically the guy landed 30kts fast due a poor approach.

Whoopeedoo!

Now if he'd burst a tyre or scratched the paint ......................:rolleyes:

bacardi walla 5th Oct 2005 08:15

brain fade I assume by your comments that you're not a pilot? If you are, god help anyone who flies with you.

SOP's are there to be followed NOT ignored.

Both crew members are to blame here. The Captain for obvious reasons, and the FO for not filing an ASR and not entering anything in the tech log.

The FO should have reacted better in hindsight. Surely Boeing or the leasing company would have something to say if their aircraft was operated beyond it's limits?

The picture would be different if this aircraft had gone off the end of the runway........

Daysleeper 5th Oct 2005 09:16

There is a shade of Kate Moss here, its not so much I'm sorry I endangered the lives of 120+ people, its I'm sorry I got caught.

RogerIrrelevant69 5th Oct 2005 09:47

Eh no, if brain fade is serious, he has not got a point. Not one point in hell.

There is absolutely no excuse for the way that plane was flown. None.

And there was no excuse for letting it up in the air again without a proper tech inspection.

This is not being anally retentive. This is flying. These are the rules.

brain fade 5th Oct 2005 10:41

Chaps

I'm not excusing him and I don't think I'll try the same trick myself!

No one hurt. No paint scratched. Bad flying. Bad CRM.

An incident not an accident.

The point I was trying to make is that they were fu**ing around on purpose. The marital stress stuff had sod all to do with it.

To hear some of the holy holies on here you'd think he'd killed someone.

As far as going again without getting the flaps looked at, the FO implicated himself in the incident by not pressing for the engineers to have a proper look.

RogerIrrelevant69 5th Oct 2005 10:51

No holy holies about it.

Basic stuff for PPLs or CPLs:

- You do not exceed Vfe.

- You do not pitch the nose down 12 degrees when you should in fact have established a stablised approach.

- You do not land 30 knots above landing speed.

- You do not f**k around as you suggest whether you have 1 passenger or 120.

Basic basic basic stuff. If you fly, you would know this.


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