Thankyou bentover - proves MY point....... THEY won't be doing that again - not in Ryanair anyway! :ok:

If that's what you do then you've only yourself to blame.
If I receive a verbal from a changeover captain, it goes straight in the book. If I'm outstation or mid rotation,likewise.

I heard a rumour of a rather interesting Go Around (very large bank angle) at Rome Ciampino about a week ago... Anybody knows more?

Forgive me if I'm being naive, but didn't ATC, either approach or tower, notice that this approach was unusual?
At a rate of descent of 6000 fpm it must surely have appeared out of the ordinary, let alone the high speed of the final and touch down.
Wouldn't ATC have called for some kind of enquiry...... asked the PF to call the director at least?
What about other traffic in the area?
I know that FR fly to "secondary" airfields but the Stockholm airspace must be pretty busy even so.

SP

Speedrig,

I think you'll find it WAS Air Traffic Control who initiated the investigation. There was probaly littel extra traffic in the area as the main Stockholm is a lot further North. The Tower controller might have thought it was a bit fast but compared to what..other RYR flights?

LHC's diatribe has contributed little. Conveniently for Ryanair, the fact that this incident was not reported by the crew meant there was little opportunity to get a full Flight Recorder Readout ( mentioned in the report) , nor a copy of the CVR. So what the investigators have is limited information, and a captains version of his " stress". And as for the mention of IALPA, wouldn't it be great to blame everything on RYR's greatest enemy.

The Investigators might have had a much better idea what really happened but couldn't put it in the report as they had no "tangible" evidence.

I have seen radar traces of RYR aircraft clocking along at 320knts, having been TOLD to fly at 250kts. I have had RYR aircraft flying behind me repeatedly told to reduce speed as they were catching me up on the approach by refusing to fly the speed given by ATC. Whether LHC, or anyone else cares about it or not, RYR have built up a reputation in UK and Irish ATC for rushing everywhere , often in contravention of ATC instructions. And don't get me started on their taxying antics on the ground.

With that sort of a reputation, this particular approach was probably not a real surprise to either of the crew on the day. It was probably passed of as , " that was a bit tight eh?" With no CVR to listen to, it's impossible to ever know what the first officer really said ( if anything). Naturally when it became an investigation , and having been abandoned by his captain to face the music, he would have made sure his story was good.

Hopefully RYR will see this as a warning. There is no room in this industry for cowboy antics.

Thanks jmc-man.
Reminds me of a flight I took on Southwest between KLAX and KPHX some time ago.
I was genuinely concerned about the handling of the aircraft on the ground and in the air. My letter of complaint earned me a Parker pen and the wisdom never to set foot on Southwest again.
From what I hear and read, many are doing the same with Ryanair.
Long live full service carriers.

SP

Blame whom/what ever we like, but at the end of the day the Captain (and F/O) are the ones who bear the full responsibility for the safety of their passengers, the aircraft, and whatever else the aircraft might come into conflict with.

O'Leary's aggressive style of management is possibly affecting many of the crew who work for him.

How to stop it?
Have the civil aviation checkies start making their presence more obvious on the flight decks, and at airports.

As an unbiased outsider I find it amazing that every time there is any sort of incident at Ryanair it immediately gets blamed on the management. Are flight crew brainwashed during training, thus losing free will? True, there is usually no smoke without fire, but how the actions of a captain having a brain fart can be blamed on anything except himself and his own circumstances is beyond me. Whether or not he was having marital problems is irrelevant: if he knew that whatever problems he was having would interfere with his duties as a pilot, he should not have been flying. He obviously was not worried about losing his job if he called in sick, as he was leaving anyway. The scariest part of this incident is the breakdown in CRM. If anything is to be lernt from it then this is the issue that needs addressing.

And, lets not forget the numerous amounts of incidents, accidents and fines, not only majors but, by cargo, business and charter airlines that have had all the above happen to them. Does this mean that management, personal problems and the like were also involved? The last hull lose in Canada by a major, was not the first for them, at landing long and running off the end of the runway. Does this give them a bad reputation? They have clocked millions of hours without incident or accident. Yes we are all not perfect but, we strive too! Give Fr a break!:hmm:

CAT1 and MPH,

I have not been critical of the captain in this incident. He made a BIG mistake, as can any human being given the right (wrong?!?) set of circumstances.

What I do lay firmly at the feet of FR managment is the actions taken in the relative calm of the turn-around. The FO, clearly presented with an aircraft that required a maintenence inspection for the overspeed, a captain who admitted he was unfit to fly, and no doubt just a little shaken up himself- GOT BACK ON AND FLEW HOME.

Why? Refer previous posts. An FR FO, faced with a similar situation decided it was unsafe to fly, AND WAS SACKED ON THE ORDERS OF THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF FR MANAGMENT.

That is not error, that is not a mistake, that is a deliberate policy of intimidation, leading to a culture of "shut up and fly".

Well said Wiz.

Just another point, there are very few of us in the industry that would continue an approach with 5000fpm rate of descent below 2000'.

For non-flyers this picture would look horrendous in the cockpit and all your instincts would be to forget it. Unless of course there is a greater force at work in this event that we ( non FR ) don't understand.

But of course according to Leo it's all Ialpa's fault.

One reason why airline safety is much improved over the last few years is the widespread practice of analysing flight data traces for any non-standard events and interviewing the crew afterwards.

Do Ryanair have such a policy?

Guys ! Are you talking about one crazy individual or Ryanair ? There are hundreds of pilots in RYR with different experience and background .
That insults me a little bit because I have not done such approaches and I have never been under any pressure to do something like that .

Rushed Approach - nothing new under the sun.
 

What about the famous story concerning the Heathrow controller and the BEA first officer. Apparently the captain was flying a manual approach and getting a bit overloaded.
ATC: " Bealine XYZ, are you OK for speed and height?"
FO;" Yes sir, we have an abundance of both!"
Not sure what the skipper said, or the flight manager if they landed off it.
Cheers, Y

Barzha,

Please find one quote in this thread that insinuates all or even a great many Ryanair pilots are anything other that good and reputable pilots.

May I also suggest YOU refering to your former collegue as "Crazy" IS very insulting to someone who made a mistake.

What is being discussed here is the whether the cultural pressures put on FR pilots by their management is detrimantal to flight saftey, and I have pushed the personal barrow that Ryan FOs are under pressure to fly when they don't consider it safe, as one who didn't was made an example of.

Would you or any other incumbent at FR (Gone a bit quiet there Leo...) care to dis-agree?

Well if all Ryanair pilots are crap. God bless British Airways and Virgin and all the other so called big names which is where some of the fo's and captains are going and don forget to bless the Airbus A340 pilot in Canada , obviously an Ex Ryanair pilot..

Mr Lancaster,

I guess I'll have to say it to you too! Where is ANYONE saying Ryanair pilots are crap? Certain of them seem to have a problem with reading but NO-ONE is suggesting there is anything wrong with FR pilots!

What we are saying is put good pilots in a bad culture, and the results can be tragic.

I am more than a little confused by some of the arguments being put across in this thread. It is my understanding that this incident was brought to light by the Ryanair management after analysis of the flight data. The ATC radar trace came after the investigation was initiated. So how is this the fault of the company.

As for the comments about CRM and safety practices within the company I have never heard such a load of bull in my life. As a Ryanair captain I speak with some authority when I say that the CRM and safety culture within the company is second to none. After this incident the 6 monthly CRM training package was developed to cover, not only this type of scenario but the very incident was discussed including a computer simulation of the event. Every pilot in the company had to watch it, discuss their thoughts about it and state what they would do in the same situation.

True there are aspects of the company management I would like to change but safety and CRM are not amongst them. In resent years at least 2 captains that I know about have been dismissed or had their contracts revoked due to poor CRM following reports from FOs.

If I ever did something stupid and I pray to God that it is not on this scale, I would hold my hands up and take it on the chin. Which ever company you are with you are going to get a roasting so you might as well demonstrate a little integrity.

The general argument of the company bashers seems tobe that flying for FR makes you a cr*p pilot. How ridiculous. Grow up.

I'm sure most Ryaniar pilots are as capable as anyone else (well, I do stress most).

However, this guy is a f*****g disgrace and thank God he is now on the other side of the world.

Look out those who have to fly to Aus.

He may have had a row with his wife and decide to nearly kill everyone in sight.

ps LHC, you are obviously some sort of deluded O'leary pillow biter.